Uh... not everybody plays like you. You try playing the first GTA game on the PlayStation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Uh... not everybody plays like you. You try playing the first GTA game on the PlayStation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
There's also stuff like Simon's Quest and the many games like which came earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by zetastrike
As for the map thing, in-game maps have been in console games since before the 8-bit generation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwNxusBIsU0
It's not just about a map. It's about a map that shows save points and locked doors that you have to find the key or device to open, which Symphony very much copies from Super Metroid, right down to the hit points regenerating. They don't call those open map Castlevania games Metroidvania for nothing.
The GTA series don't interest me at all. Sorry. But I did play Phantasy Star 1 until last dungeon and beat Shining in the Dakness dungeon crawlers without maps or grid paper. Does that count?Quote:
Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010
This is how all PS1 dungeons look like, by the way;
http://www.smspower.org/uploads/Tran.../3ddungeon.png
Don't forget Castlevania 1 for MSX.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
Didn't original Metroid and Simon's Quest have save rooms too? (I mean, I don't know, I never really played Simons Quest) And no, Castlevania for MSX had locked doors and required exploring to find keys to unlock them.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
I'm going to go against popular opinion here and agree with Thief on SOTN. It's just not great, owing to some weak level design. The inverted castle is a joke really.
Very little platforming in the game at all. Now the graphics, sound and presentation are of course some of the best ever, but the core game is massively overrated IMO.
I guess they are called this way because of Nintendo overhype, but there were great Metroidvanias on 8 bits (Wonderboy 3, for example), as Metroidvaniesque as (if not more than) both Metroid and Castlevania were at the time...Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
No...neither Metroid (at least till the GBA remake) nor Simon's Quest had save rooms. Both used passwords.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
I also generally play though dungeon crawlers without bothering to map (Eye of the Beholder, Shining in the Darkness, Shining the Holy Ark, Dark Spire, Swords and Serpents, Phantasy Star I).
That having been said, I don't think I'd want to try to play through a side scrolling Metroidvania style game without some sort of map feature. With dungeon crawlers you can generally rely on you dungeons being within a finite space, and repetition can alert you to hidden areas. Not so with exploratory side-scrollers.
I really couldn't careless if it's new or original myself . Nothing new or original in Streets Or Rage II or the likes of Thunder Force IV and I really couldn't give a toss . SOR II looked and sounded amazing and played better than anything around at the time . Also for me Castlevania SOTN was a huge letdown and not a patch on Castlevania IV on the Snes - I didn't like the RPG features at all , the bosses battle were half as good or as memorable, no 360 rotating rooms, the platforming not half as good. It was a ok but a bit of a letdown and Castlevania on the PC-Eng CD-Rom2 is for me one of the most overrated games of all time
Nintendo overhype my ass. Everyone called Symphony of the Night the best Castlevania ever. Anyone that had played Super Metroid recognized what a blatant ripoff SOTN was of the latest Metroid title.Quote:
Originally Posted by tryphon
Dude, I have that TMNT game. You see the map by pressing select and it shows you areas where the other turtles are located. This is yet another case of ideas not existing in a vaccuum.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
I don't know how anyone can hate maps.
Those 8-bit CRPGs without automap are practically unplayable as soon as you get into it, why would I want to break the game every 10 seconds to fill in yet another spot of graph paper?
Inb4 someone tells me "it's all about the experience duh"
Again, it's not just about having a map! It's about having a map layout that is used exactly like Super Metroid, right down to the parts of the map connecting to unexplored areas not having an edge. It goes beyond just having a map. You have gear like the dash boots and the backtracking once you have new gear that wil allow you to reach areas that were once unreachable.Quote:
Originally Posted by zetastrike
It's like saying Mortal Kombat would have happened without Street Fighter 2, because there was anther fighting game called Pit-Fighter.
No because once you got the View Spell from Pyra, you could easily figure out where you are on the maps!Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Gameplay rarely effects being able to reach new area in SotN. It's mostly keys blocking access to new areas. And don't look at mist form as gameplay either. It basically acts more like a key then actual gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Also Super Metroid wasn't only game with connected areas.
Metroid and Simon's quest came on FDS in Japan, so no passwords. But looking at the NES map of Metorid I don't see any save rooms + I totally forget how you save in Metroid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Armoured Priest
I played the original Metroid without a map. Though when I got super stuck once, I looked up online where to go next and was surprised by how much smaller the world seemed with a map right in front of me. Was a total buzz kill because my mind envisioned something much more grand and epic. That's why next time I plan on playing through Super Metroid, I plan on using the romhack that removes it's map and see this time if motivates me enough to beat it this time. Because your imagination in this area adds so much to the gaming experience. And why I hate gamers complaining about these old games without map hand holding because they don't even attempt to see what it's like to play these old games without maps due to being spoiled by today's map hand holding games. Also, you don't automatically become great at playing games without maps, it's a learning experience. Remember when learning experiences were a huge part of gaming?
Did Wonderboy have save rooms? But really, wasn't excessive saving becoming more the norm as videogames advanced anyway? I mean, Super Metroid couldn't of been the first videogame with an actual save room. And if it was, even without Super Metroid the natural evolution of more saves in videogames would of lead to that anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by tryphon
Yes, Rondo is very overrated. Makes barely any use of enemies and level design combined to work in harmony. Most enemies feel very separate from the levels and just boring one on one versus matches like SotN & Street Fighter 2. :p (Hey, that's it! SotN was inspired by Rondo, and Rondo inspired by SFII :lol:) Classic Castlevania, including SNES Dracula X, mixes enemy placement with level design more and does a better job at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Everyone calling SotN the best Castlevania can't see that all they like about it is it's style over substance. Just like Rondo, and where once I asked on a vania forum how are Rondo levels well designed, and the only answers I got were about how awesome it's graphics were proving level design was awesome, lol. So yeah, like a broken record I kept having to remind that graphics do no equal the level design in question I was talking about. But this proves my point. Nobody knows what they're blindly praising SotN and Rondo for. And nobody ever analyses gameplay and level design (except a few on this and shmups forum, of course). They all see beautiful art/music/presentation and automatically dub them videogame masterpieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
It's all about the experience, duh. :p (But really. Come on. True exploration and discovery is done without maps. Bringing a map would just cheapen the experience)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gogogadget
I was talking about my experience. Meaning I forgot that view spell even existed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonusKun