:horse:Just let it die already. :horse:
:horse:Just let it die already. :horse:
Trekkies might as well be talking to a brick wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Does this forum not understand the meaning of "drop it?"
There's plenty the genesis did well and plenty it didnt. There's plenty the snes did well and plenty it didnt. Both have stellar examples and both have their share of shit. I don't see the point of this thread, you don't HAVE to play the snes, you can go on enjoying your genesis without putting the other system and it's capabilities down.
I could have worded the thread title a little better, which stopped being the main point after the first 50 to 100 posts. All I wanted was some answers about why SNES fanboys take issue to when someone might not be a huge fan of their system, even if said person likes it. Some people want to have the last word on certain things, like Trekkies and Team Andromeda. Any way to shut a topic like this down?Quote:
Originally Posted by cabear
Hope a mod gets around to it, I guess.
Also, the answer to your question really is just... nerds. Some people get too attached to things, and in this case, for whatever reason, are hell bent on their favorite being the best at everything.
As I said early on, take it all with a grain of salt.
Well I'm the wrong end of 30 and started my gaming life with the intellivision (my 1st console) and the ZX Spectrum 128+ (I loved that system) in 1986 I fell in Love with SEGA Arcade games and was all for the Master System Ect, I loved the MD but when I got the Snes in 1992 I just felt it was a better system for the games I liked at the time (Castlevania IV was amazing to me ) . I was also a big fan of the ST and Amgia and the Atari ST was my 1st 16 bit system .Quote:
Originally Posted by SEGA-Jorge
All systems had their good and bad points , but I was always a huge fan of the Mega CD and Saturn. They were the stand out systems for me
Yes, you can always message the moderator BonusKun. I am sure he will oblige. Just make sure to tell him that you are the OP of the thread. Have a good weekend sull56ivn2010! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010
It's cross misting and it's mentioned twice in the interview , yeah he makes out it magic and that's because what he was doing was not what the Hardware supported and if you live in Scotland PIXEL dust can also have an initially different meaning .Quote:
This is the most pants on head retarded thing I've seen posted out of you yet. He said PIXIE not PIXEL. He's making a joke about it being magic
Well there's always one I guessQuote:
It was for me.
Not it's your turn for being ridiculous . Both Grandia play exactly the same there isn't even any different in the frame rate and the PS does a decent job of the Saturn VDPII floors too . I'll ask again what does having better looking water effects add to the gameplay ?Quote:
e. In Grandia it gives the floor freeing up polygons.
You always knock it , and there's plenty of Saturn games that used the VDP II in a gimmicky manner that didn't affect the gameplay , there's a few Mega Drive or Mega CD games that used tricks for the sake off it , none more than the bonus sections of Sonic CD and that effect is rather poor tooQuote:
Where did I knock it in this thread? I don't knock the effect, I knock games that use it poorly and in a gimmicky manner. Like this
LOL, Jon was referuring to the Mode 7 tricks , also Core said the same too . So you knock Mode 7 but like VDP II .Quote:
So? We can call the Genesis a souped up Master System
When you're racing a rival its important to see the other player car don't you think ?Quote:
The 2 player mode issue makes no sense.
I'm sorry the pop up and drawn in with Virtual Racing is far more than Virtua Fighter on the Saturn . Daytona USA on the Saturn Is another matter, but even then the game is playableQuote:
If it's anything like Daytona USA machines it's again in a whole different league than the clipping in Saturn Virtua Fighter and Saturn Daytona USA. Same with Virtua Racing
Behind the characters and when you're playing the game you hardly noticed it .Quote:
The clipping and flickering happens all the time
I belive so does the PS. Not that changes anything the Saturn had hardware issues with Transparent effectsQuote:
The Saturn doesn't really draw polygons, it draws distorted sprites
LOL . Im not you do all the time . I'm well aware of the Mega Drive and Saturn short commings and sorry the Saturn doesn't support 3D transparent effects and the Mega Drive doesn't support Mode 7 effects, what does the reflection effects add to Street Racer, what does the Mode 7 style sky add to Quake on the Saturn, what does the Mode 7 style floor add to Tama . The Mega Drive doesn't have Polygon Hardware but some games use Polygons . You seem to take anything that the Hardware doesn't support with the Mega Drive as an attack on it ,when it's not . Neo Geo doesn't support Hardware rotation that's not attacking the system or making it out to be rubbish, its just a fact .Quote:
That's what you say to move the goal posts. You usually start off saying "SATURN CAN'T DO REAL 3D TRANSPARENCIES!" or "MEGA DRIVE CAN'T DO MODE 7
You mean that a whole stage for like 3 laps isn't there constantly .Quote:
1) VDP1 Transparencies are slow. They take 6 times longer to render than non-transparent sprites. So that could have caused a performance hit. The Light Trails and Shields are not up constantly so their performance impact is most likely minimal.
Finally ! and I put to use the VDP II is handling the fancy swirl effect. It some nice nifty coding and even then the results aren't as good as those seen on the PS or even 3DO :- A system that also used quads but no 3DO game had issues like the Saturn for trasparent 3D Polygon effectsQuote:
Radiant Emerald is NOT Made of transparent polygons. It is instead done by clever use of VDP2 layering.
I'm about two seconds from putting a foot up people's asses. TA, Trekkies, & everyone else. Chill the fuck out now please. This argument isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightrider
I just think that it's silly for someone not to like a console like the PlayStation or SNES, because it's not Sega. It's about the games 1st and the consoles second. I certainly don't hate on the Intellevision or the Atari 800, because they aren't the Atari 2600 or C-64.
Is this topic about to be put to the pasture?
Not "nerds", but tribalism, unless you're claiming that football/soccer hooligans who murder fans of opposing teams are "nerds". Or the world's rich history of people murdering each other because of slight disagreements over religious texts, because they don't agree about which country should claim a particular mountain, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightrider
I don't like the "nerd" thing you keep bringing up because it frames the issue in terms of social status ("Haha, look at these losers who don't like/do the same things I do!") instead of what it really is: the human condition, and our penchant for acting like dogs humping other dogs to show dominance. By calling them "nerds", aren't you're really doing that very thing -- engaging in a dominance display to show off in front of your peers? As Wondermark famously observed:
http://wondermark.com/c/2007-09-21-338pants.gif
It's not as if any group of video game fans have cornered the market on self-righteous indignation over meaningless things -- that's pretty much the main narrative of the world these days: people who contribute nothing of value, constantly expressing opinions.
True. But I still seen plenty of point in this thread. This thread was awesome!Quote:
Originally Posted by cabear
Hey, you don't want to participate in this thread anymore, don't let the door hit you on your wait out. Because there's no reason why the rest of us can't have this thread for your selfish reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010
And seriously, who cares if a topic goes of topic. Especially when that's how things work on this forum and it's how I like it. Better folks keep chatting instead of sitting there with out thumbs up our asses and going... "Hmm, wonder how this other forum (BioWare for me) is doing instead?"
I started with the NES (I came to Canada in 89, so started late with the NES. My last NES game was TMNTIII, but still played NES well into the SNES era due to everyone having lots of games for it to borrow). Then SNES because SFII was released and I remember seeing it in Arcades and then at a friends cousins house where not only did I see SFII, but also Super Ghouls and Ghousts. And I couldn't believe what I was seeing. :o (Why I still have warm fuzzy nostalgia feelings for SGnG to this day too) So I begged my mom to get right on it ASAP. I was so much of a Nintendo fanboy back then, but also because I barely even knew of Sega outside of a Sonic commercial. Lucky my then dad, who was recently divorced, bought me like a Sega Genesis soon after. So I was one of the lucky ones to enjoy the best of both wolds. Sega and Nintendo. But still was fighting for SNES in schoolyards. And in the end, Sega eventually won me over for me personally with the Genesis then Saturn. But I still have great memories of playing the best of both worlds. Up until PS1 & Saturn era of gaming. After buying Dreamcast I gave up on PS2 and gaming in general very shortly after PS2 release (seen my buddy buy PS2 on launch and wasn't impressed at all). Because to me 32-Bit era felt like the last of what made gaming great to me (why the early death of the Saturn was extra sad since I much preferred it over Lamecast). So the end of my era. Didn't get back into gaming until SSF emulation was possible on my PC, and then finally bought another console since with X-Box 360 for Skyrim. And here I am today... still with only 360, PS3, PC and emulators, emulators, emulators.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Sorry, Andromeda. But there is a difference in frame rate for Grandia favouring Saturn. But not like that matters much gameplay wise in a turn based RPG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoactLpR29A
Also the first town couldn't fit into the PS1's ram and had to be broken in two via loading screens instead of being one piece (plus Pierre Port section separate section via loading screen) as it is on Sega Saturn. Not sure if this is because VDP2 saves on RAM or just because Saturn has more video RAM (if I'm not mistaking this?) or whatever other reason.
But yeah. The moral is still that the benefits of the Saturn's VDP2 cannot be denied. Gameplay and graphics.
Sorry, I didn't see your earlier post until after I made my reply. But if anyone here needs a time out it's TA. Look back through the posts. All I did was post one simple video providing a technical example of the Genesis doing something he said it couldn't do. He's the one that took that personally and started attacking. I'm not flipping out, I'm simply replying to TA in the hopes that something will sink in and he'll stop throwing these stubborn tantrums. The rest of us should not be punished because someone else can't deal with evidence being posted that goes against their own biases.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonusKun
And a bit further, I really don't see what the issue is here. This thread is talking about SNES fans who can't deal with people not liking the SNES. Well TA is a spitting image of that. It's not off topic. It's right on topic.
Sorry but no. It's simply a figure of speech to say it was being done by magic. It's not referencing some elaborate dithering method.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Grandia has less frame drops on the Saturn than it does on the PS1 last time I checked. Does it have a major impact on gameplay? No, but it does present a much more attractive looking game since there's shadows and what not present that are not there on the PS1 version. Hardware advantages don't always need to present themselves as gameplay enhancements. If both games run and play the same, I think most of us will take the nicer looking one. Which in the case of Thunder Force V and Grandia those would be the Saturn versions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Where did I knock it in this thread? I simply pointed out the Genesis can do it in software. Sonic CD's bonus levels, Saturn using it for floors and trippy background effects I'd say are not gimmicky or poor. They all play and work pretty well. Neon Night Riders I'd say is a gimmicky manner. The level is dull as there's barely any enemies to deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Ok? And? VDP2's rotating planes are pretty much mode 7 on steroids. Again, I didn't knock mode 7, I knocked games that used it poorly. All I did here was point out that the Genesis can do it in software.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Yes, luckily for us that clipping issue doesn't actually happen in Sega Rally:Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNVDm2TEqG4
Looks fine to me:Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RGco5ub-O4
Yeah it's there, but it's far enough down the road you can see what you need to see. Virtua Fighter's flickering/pop up is literally happening 2 feet away from the player. Some stages are better than others, but some you really have no idea where you are on the stage until you're right at the edge.
What is it with you defending that port constantly? Everyone noticed the clipping issues and yes it can have an impact on positioning. If it wasn't a big deal Sega wouldn't have given away Virtua Fighter Remix as an apology.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
The PS1 doesn't have a z-buffer, it still draws actual triangles however. Saturn however is using a sprites that it distorts to look like a polygon. It's not the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I'd be inclined to believe you if it wasn't for what's about to come up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Right here you said the Saturn doesn't support 3D Transparencies. It does support them. Not to the level of flexibility and features that the PS1 has, but it does support them. Sonic R uses it for the Light Trails and Shields. Panzer Dragoon uses it for the lasers, Stellar Assault SS uses it for explosions, etc. The system can do it. It just has quirks and limitations which no one here is denying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
But once again you just now stated something as fact that's not actually true. God forbid I or anyone else jump in and correct you.
In hardware no it doesn't. But it can pull the effect off through software. Yeah the SNES does it better, but that's not what I was trying to prove or disprove. You said the Genesis couldn't do the effect, I provided an example of it doing the effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
No, I see people spreading old misconceptions that have long been disproven as ignorance to be corrected. You seem to take those corrections as an insult rather than a learning experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
The whole stage isn't VDP1 transparency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I've been telling you this entire thread that Radiant Emerald wasn't being done with transparent polygons. I can go back and bring up the old quotes. Maybe you should have paid better attention. Now that's not to say the Saturn can't do VDP1 transparencies or that Sonic R isn't doing them. It's just not doing them to draw Radiant Emerald. It uses them for the Light trails and shields.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Yeah a few years ago we all thought it was doing it with transparent polygons until someone came along and broke down what was going on which showed it was the background image that was actually transparent overtop the track. If I remember correctly you were telling everyone it was high resolution dithering.
As for the 3DO, it again doesn't draw 3D the same way as the Saturn. Yeah it uses quads, but I think you'll find it's still not doing the same exact thing as the Saturn's distorted sprite approach.
Anyways since people are getting annoyed, I'm done here. Send replies to my inbox TA if you still don't understand.
In before lock.
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TrekkiesUnite118 again."
Oh well... :D
P.S. Is there worse looking game than Flicky on Genesis?
Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightrider
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEGA.GENESIS1989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Shocker
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleeg
Guys, replies like these don't help make matters better. Quite the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peeteris
Also, if you guys don't like the thread. Should be very easy to stay out of it. I for one like it and don't need others telling me what I can or can't enjoy or reply to. I'm 36 years old here.
You both need a time out. TA can go off on the deep end, but it doesn't help to keep going back and forth over the same thing over and over and over again. I'm just fine with how Virtua Fighter looks and plays on the Saturn; I think it's a hell of a lot better than the cut-down 32X version.
One thing Saturn VF1 has over sequels (not sure about remix) is superior sound fx. They had to make them crappier for sequels to fit them in RAM or something like that. Think I read that in an OSSM interview?Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Why the hell can't I just report a whole thread? =(
Because what you don't like others might like. Maybe not now, maybe in the future (how many old threads I wanted to add something but couldn't because it got locked...). Besides, all you guys are making it a bigger deal then it is. If you guys just ignore them, or the very least the negative aspects of their discussion, it wouldn't of escalated as much. And you can still enjoy the positive aspects by them and others and in turn help steer the discussion in a more positive direction. Crying for mods is like crying for teacher. And that never was a solution at all in school. If you couldn't handle your own shit in school, you were better off going to another school.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sik
Having almost a whole page filled with 2 guys beating a subject to death gets old.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Then let it get old. I've done it for 37 or so pages on here before. 2 pages is nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
People seem to have a huge problem accepting that others have choices of their own.
The thread used to be a great read. Esp the SNES vs Genesis music comparison.
I didn't mind the VDP2 discussion between Trekkies and Andromeda. After all, I'm a Saturn fanboy myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jackal
The Saturn is one of my top 3 favorite consoles. Still, we've heard and read enough about it on these forums to last a lifetime. They could start another thread about it, if they want to beat each other down about VDP1 and VDP2 all day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Yeah, that was pretty cool. I liked hearing tunes from those obscure titles that nobody talks about. I've heard of PLOK, but I've never played the title.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jackal
Anyway, 3 days ago when I woke up I noticed my right thumb was sore at the joint. It's still healing and I just want it to fully heal already. But that's forcing me to stop playing ME3mp(the game I can never seem to stop. Now I'm speedrunning Platinum solos) or Axelay (been awhile since I beat an STG, so this is working out so far). So I decided on something button lite; turn based JRPG. Picked Chrono Trigger and mapped the 4 face buttons to X-Box 360 4 shoulder buttons (only need 2-3 buttons for that game really). So I'm playing that now. I'm in the future at that first robot boss battle.
CT was actually my first introduction to the RPG genre back on SNES in '95. Thanks to it's excellent advertisement and one particular coverage in EGM or EGM2 (eventually same article reached their yearly Buyers Guide too).
http://www.retrogamingaus.com/wordpr...-Trigger-2.jpg
^ That's the ad I remember. And the pic that stood out in my mind the most till this day was that bridge pic.
If only FF6 had that kind of advertisement and cover, maybe I would of tried it on SNES? (Always seen FF6 & Earthbound cover in stores and they've got zero response from me. Looking back now if they choose anything else from official artwork... lol, those idiots) I never played FF6 until it arrived fresh on PS1, thanks to FF7 still on fresh hype and that I already knew about Squaresoft and RPGs thanks to having tried CT. On PS1 was when I also finally beat Chrono Trigger too. Before that I only rented it once and made it to the Lavos reveal the massive impact that scene had on me. I mean, I literally thought this had to be the greatest RPG story ever and it always lingered in my mind.
Now I'm not sure which I thought was better the first time I beat these two games (CT/FF6), but after a second playthrough of both, no doubt FF6 is the better game to me personally. And even playing it now with nostalgia memories. I can't shake off the feeling that this game is too hyped. If anything, it shouldn't be more hyped then FF6, right?
Both versions runs pretty much the same , other than GFX effects its adds nothing to the gameplay or alter it in any way.Quote:
Does it have a major impact on gameplay? No, but it does present a much more attractive looking game since there's shadows and what not present that are not there on the PS1 version
You can see it, it doesn't affect the gameplay at all .Quote:
Everyone noticed the clipping issues
It clearly doesn't and that why all 3D Saturn games had to use work arounds or other effects and forget the PS, not even the 3DO had issues for 3D transparent effect . Saturn was like Model 2 totally lacking hardware support for it.Quote:
Right here you said the Saturn doesn't support 3D Transparencies. It does support them. Not to the level of flexibility and features that the PS1 has, but it does support them
Thank you .Quote:
In hardware no it doesn't. But it can pull the effect off through software
Its not old misconceptions at all , everyone knows the Saturn had issues with 3D transparent effects not least SEGA own teams . And we all know the Snes had issues with slowdown in a lot of games thanks to issues with Hardware or CPU .Quote:
No, I see people spreading old misconceptions that have long been disproven as ignorance to be corrected
You've always knocked it and no the Mega Drive can't do full Mode 7 effects as well as the Snes did . Nothing on the MD matches F-Zero running at 60 fps and with full 360-degree moment , some 26 years on .Quote:
Where did I knock it in this thread? I simply pointed out the Genesis can do it in software. Sonic CD's bonus levels
Please what about Model 2 is that drawing distorted sprites? it too had issues with no Hardware for 3D transparent effects .Quote:
The PS1 doesn't have a z-buffer, it still draws actual triangles however. Saturn however is using a sprites that it distorts to look like a polygon. It's not the same thing
Really didn't see a part of the road draw in late some 37 sec into the video, the constant clipping of the tree's the huge clipping on the mountain at the side of the bridge ?. What VR are you playing , pop up and clipping was happing all the time on the Model 1 gameQuote:
Looks fine to me
It does now and again and the in the rear view mirror there's constant clipping and draw in.Quote:
Yes, luckily for us that clipping issue doesn't actually happen in Sega Rally
I think you've changing your tune on this score Big Time , but there you goQuote:
I've been telling you this entire thread that Radiant Emerald wasn't being done with transparent polygons
The shield is basic 2D effect and can't even fit around the character probably . The trail I'll give you but its a crap looking effect and the PS would have doen it so much better thanks to Hardware support for such effectsQuote:
It uses them for the Light trails and shields
The creator of a thread should have the final say. If the thread gets close, create a new one based on whatever it is you liked about this one.
Perhaps, but this isn't religion or politics, this is people carrying on about 25+ year outdated technology, anonymously over the internet, most likely at a PC. Not exactly something large groups of people are going to care enough about to start wars over. Just stupid arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenband
It was never SNES bashing to begin with. It was about why a loud minority of overzealous fans can't accept that anyone thinks their favorite piece of plastic isn't the 2nd coming. That's hardly hating on said piece of plastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Fun fact: Super Mario 64 uses sprites in place of spheres extensively. I think translucency wasn't exactly the problem they were trying to tackle. It was probably more the "an actual sphere takes up too many polygons" part. Pretty sure Sonic R uses a sprite for the shield for exactly the same reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
(sorry, I'm just still ticked off at the suggestion that it's 2D because it's translucent and not because it's just too curvy which would be still an issue even if it was checkerboard or even solid =P)
The thread titles mentions "not a fan". When someone says that they are not a fan of something, that usually means that their feelings about something is usually quite the opposite (usually hating) of being a fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightrider
Then let's have some aural enjoyment...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jackal
It's always interesting to see what each company does with a given system's soundchip, both when it's the same company on both game versions, and when a different company interprets another company's work. Sometimes, they play to system's strengths rather than trying to mimic what was done elsewhere. At other times, they just butcher it while trying to give it a different feel. For example, the original music from TFIII and TFIV that Toshiba EMI just ruined when bringing it to the SNES (IMO), while what Shiny and Konami did felt more like they were working each song to take advantage of each system (to varying degrees of success). I personally like the harder edge of TMNT:HSH's music over the SNES' version of those tunes, but EJ2 sounded better on the SNES than the Genesis (though the Genesis music was no slouch).
As an aside, it always felt like EJ1's music was built around the Genesis soundchip and its strengths (then translated to the SNES), while EJ2's music was built around the SNES' soundchip's capabilities (then translated to the Genesis).
I'm being selfish? That's rich coming from you who bashed my tastes in my SNES library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
WTF does Model 2 have to do with this? What a retarded comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eyMvM-BVQo
^ I remember when I played SNES ThunderSpirits and heard this song I was blown away. Realising it was a ThunderForce 2 stage, I right away looked up to hear how the Genesis version sounded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_9E2MfD5s0&index=9&list=PL55F929D56BBF80E 6
^ Oh yeah, much better. :) One of my favourite TF tunes. And in one of my playlists (on Genesis it also has a much cooler name too; Death's Face. )
Oh, and any hardware vid recordings of my fave 16-Bit TMNT song?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmUadhuwwV8
^ I just noticed the Genesis version has a new baseline thumping like rhythm running through it. I think it's what gives it the edge over SNES version in this case. Otherwise I go back and forth on which is better between these two soundtrack versions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7xN4SlcvGE
^ Well it sounds like it's coming out of a pillow, could that mean it's actual hardware? :p
And Genesis Earthworm Jim music losing to SNES? Never thought I'd hear any Sega fan say that. Myself I always preferred the Genesis tunes of these games. But sure, I'll give them another listen since I usually only care about the first game's tunes.
I already told you no offense intended about that SNES library thread. So again, that wasn't meant as an offense. But wanting to shut down a thread, even if it's your own, just for the sake of shutting it down is just not cool. Especially when others may still want to post in it (and by the looks of it, yes) and the fact that you can just walk away from it. I mean, whatever happened to simplicity? Just because I'm not a fan Ontario Canada and plan on moving away from it one day don't mean I should drag Russia out of bed to nuke it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010
(Also, again, no offense)
Thief, there's already been three sets of fights between a few sets of users. The last thing I want to see is another one where someone makes a verbal insult or calls people trolls. I like that there is passion for both systems, but it is starting to get a little carried away by some people. I hate to see this become like GameFAQS. Call me out for thicker skin, but it's getting tiresome watching the bickering.