What are the ages of these people I gotta wonder? I was 10 years old when the SNES came out and that was 25 years ago. You mean to tell me mfers out chere are acting like kids?
What are the ages of these people I gotta wonder? I was 10 years old when the SNES came out and that was 25 years ago. You mean to tell me mfers out chere are acting like kids?
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
I don't collect anything for the SNES purely because it's entirely too expensive for what I would want on it.
I still love many SNES games, far more than enough to make it worthwhile to own the system itself.... but they are priced out of the sweet spot where I'd buy them, thus I get them elsewhere on other systems.
I'm fortunate to have most of the popular games of the time, because I bought them when they were still cheap and the console was on the decline. I did the same with my Genesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by EclecticGroove
I use a Super UFO Pro 8, to play ROM files of games that I didn't get back then. It works just fine with the SNES, though the save feature is sort of janky and games with the FX chips are sort of supported, but not really.
http://www.emuparadise.me/reviews/SuperUFO/
I'd really like to see a Genesis version of this cart soon.
True but what about an Everdrive?Quote:
Originally Posted by EclecticGroove
The issue that started this thread is exactly this kind of "I don't understand how people don't see things my way" bullshit. It's like telling people they're wrong for preferring heavy metal to Mozart.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
It was more like people being upset because someone bashed something that they love.Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightrider
I'm a fan of all kinds of music, so I think that someone bashing Mozart while praising Van Halen would be rather short sighted. The Van Halen brothers were raised on classical music, so when I hear Eddie Van Halen playing a solo, or doing something on an acoustic guitar, I can appreciate the influences of music that he is representing when he plays. Some of Van Halen's older stuff, is a prop to the old blues music of the past.
I'm sorry, but if you can't find fault with the SNES SF2 music then you are literally tone deaf. That game has painfully obvious tuning problems, as do most other Capcom games from that era.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
As tomaitheous once said, people love pre-packaged ideas. I'd add they also love to repeat and spread pre-conceived ideas; myths.Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightrider
Let's get some examples of this very thread:
- "I have to acknowledge to the technical superiority of the SNES"
In which aspects?
'Cause, for an example, in terms of raw processing and VRAM bandwidth the Mega Drive is certainly superior. Oh, and what about the vast majority of the MD games running at superior resolution when compared to the SNES games?
- "the top games were more polished"
What exactly is a "top game"? A best-seller, a top-scorer on all review magazines, a top-quality game according to one's own criteria... It's not really clear to me, but let's assume we're talking simply about the best games on each system.
Now, how are you measuring how polished these games are? Number of in-game bugs you have found over the years in each one of them? I guess not, right?!.
Maybe the number of options and how much content each game offers? Well, in that sense arcade games are likely to be considered less polished pretty much every single time when compared to console-targeted games.
Oh, maybe these people are really taking notes about AI glitches of similar games on both sides; technical difficulties like slowdown occurrences and control lag, etc. Things that a QA team would usually look up for.
Where's a comprehensive comparison table for those things for some of the said "top games" which I can use to school myself?
- "The top SNES games generally had a much higher polish to them than a lot of the Genesis games. It's not really surprising given that Nintendo/Square/Enix put so much time and money into their games."
Development time, human resources and a big budget usually enables a team to produce a more polished game (or software, or any product in general), but they're far from being a guarantee.
EA had big money, but they would usually spend a good chunk of it on advertising and then sub-contracted some very small companis to actually develop its sport titles.
Treasure was nowhere near the size of EA, but it used to operate with a small group of very talented individuals, delivering games that most considered of higher quality than any of the EA products.
SOA blew tons of cash and spend a lot of time to develop two very mediocre games in its Multimedia Studio.
...
Also, a longer-than-normal development period can work against the motivation of development teams worse than super tight schedules.
Going back to the actual matter of these claims, I'd like to know:
- Which platformers on the SNES are clearly more polished than Rocket Knight Adventures, Dynamite Headdy, Quackshot, World of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse & Donald Duck and Sonic 3/Sonic & Knuckles? In which aspects?
- Which side-scrolling action games on the SNES are clearly more polished than Alien Soldier, Ranger X, The Adventures of Batman & Robin and Shinobi III: Return of the Ninja Master? In which aspects?
- Which beat'em up games on the SNES are clearly more polished than Streets of Rage II and Streets of Rage 3? In which aspects?
...
- "And most of the multiplat games are better on the SNES"
Again, I really would like to see some substancial evidence to support claims like this.
Our members who have actually played several of those games have provided evidences of the opposite many times in threads like these:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...raries-in-2016
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...me-comparisons
Godwin's Law for Sega-16: the longer a thread goes on, the chance of SNES being brought up approaches 100%.
The real problem, as I see it, is Sega fans have a long standing inferiority complex and 1) need to proclaim utter superiority of Genesis at all times, couching that superiority in memes such as "all SNES games are slooooooow", and 2) chafe when someone likes SNES or prefers the SNES version of a game, no matter how that preference is stated.
Not the same to me. If I'm going to own the original hardware, then I want the actual cart for the games I love. It's the same with the Genesis, Sega CD, and Saturn. But I have had all of those for years. There were only a handful of games on those systems I wanted to get that I didn't own from when they were released or at least very cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Shocker
I preferred the Genesis, so I always kept it. But the SNES was sold to enable me to buy new games back before I had a job good enough to just sell the individual games I didn't want anymore and keep the systems.
By the time I got back around to wanting to get a SNES and games again, prices had already gone too high for me to want to dip into it. I could spend hundreds of dollars and still come up short in terms of getting the games I wanted actual copies of before I even dipped into an everdrive to play the ones I either never played or just wasn't all that motivated to track down.
Which is further compounded by the fact that the majority of those games I would want have been re-released on numerous other systems. So I have copies of them on the GBA, DS, PS1, etc.
It just doesn't make sense to me at this point to get into it. One day maybe, if I have nothing else to spend money on.
Specifically I was referring to polished gameplay mechanics for the best-selling games. The number of first-party duds that Sega developed is astronomical compared with 16-bit Nintendo. Of course you can point at individual games and say "Yeah, but some Sega games were really good!", but overall, Sega had a LOT of rushed licensed titles that suffered from seriously poor gameplay mechanics (i.e. the games just weren't as fun as they could have been if more time had been invested in them).Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
I like how we conveniently forget all of those awful licensed titles which Sega focused most of their marketing and development on (at least in NA) and use examples such as Dynamite Headdy (non-existent sales) and Alien Soldier (wasn't even sold!) to show how the Genesis was superior to the SNES. Looking at the big picture it just doesn't add up.
Lest this post be taken as me being anti-Sega: That's not my intention at all. I embrace the differences in the consoles, and as I said before, I actually get a lot of enjoyment out of the quirky Sega titles that you would never find on the SNES. The silliest debate is "which console is better?!?!" Just enjoy both of them because they are both awesome in their own way.
I'm not "conveniently forgetting" anything. I'm just showing that are holes in those claims, especially when they're phrased rather generically like I've seen here.
About SOA's quality control, IMO it was pretty bad and inefficient. Well, I've expressed many times my criticism towards SOA-related games; most are crap or mediocre-at-best.
Eternal Champions is a good example of game which sold well and whose quality is very, very questionable IMO; to say the least.
But which are the great games developed by Nintendo in US?
The Metroid Prime trilogy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
Or was it just a western developer but a NOJ production?
Is Nintendo of America even a separate entity like Sega of America was (doing their own thing i mean)
I agree, of course, but I hesitated to bring the question of where games were developed into this discussion because the average gamer in the 90s did not know or care. In the 16-bit era Nintendo focused their first party development in Japan (did they have first party devs in the US? I've never looked into that). But comparing the titles that were heavily marketed in NA, Sega focused almost exclusively on SoA developed titles (with exceptions... Streets of Rage, for example).Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
Yoshi's Island is the closest SNES platformer that is just as good as most of the Genesis platformers mentioned. Does everything better than Mario World and feels like a fresh entry than your typical Mario game of the time. On par with Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Anybody who has a fit about the whiny Mario, get good at the game
http://replygif.net/i/940.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010
How dare people play games if they aren't like fucking MLG level?
Relax, valley girl. I'm not saying they should be MLG level, but have a bit of competence since there are people who refuse to play Yoshi's Island because of Mario crying.
I just listened to a YouTube video that had all of the SNES music from the game. Yes, the Guile theme song has a slightly flat accompany trumpet section. The Sitars also sound kind of janky in Dhalsim's stage, though it might just be that he's running it through emulation. I'll have to listen to it on the real hardware to double check that. The rest sounds pretty good, barring some weak sounding accompany instruments. Still, it sounds a hell of a lot better that SFCE on the Genesis, with its broken tempo and missing instrument layers.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeckoYamori
I played it once, thought it was pretty meh and never touched it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010
That cry is pretty damn irritating though.
If you're awful at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gogogadget
Understood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom
Yeah, we come from different backgrounds so it affects the way we could see things back in the days.
In Brazil, Tec Toy would usually select the best games, even if they were a bit strange to our culture and they would build the line-up with games that sometimes weren't released in US.
They were somehow attached to SOJ but surely not in the same way the Sega's companies were and also weren't big enough to try to come up with their own "brand" in terms of building a line-up around their won perspectives and investments.
Eternal Champions was never popular here, for an example. Actually, I'd say Fighting Masters is far more fondly remembered around here than EC; so you can see how my perspective is completely different if I choose to go by the local market.
Advertising here was like 0.0000001% of what you guys had in US, so that's also a major difference. Most of the time, games would sell well if they played well 'cause its players would promote such games to other players.
No "NES culture" here either (well, now Internet kids here also say that the NES was the undisputed best console evaaaarrrr but they never owned it nor played any of its games); and that also changes the perception of many SNES games a LOT IMO. Many NES fans migrate to the SNES and carried an intrinsic "bias"/nostalgia with them; here most of the console popularization came with the 16-bit consoles and the SMS was far stronger than the NES so lots of people got to know series such as Castlevania only when the SNES arrived.
This whole discussion, IMO, is far more complex than the "this console was clearly far superior to the competition and that's why it outsold them'all!!!!!!" line of thinking (and, I know, you don't think that way).
It is not an emulation thing. That's the way it has always sounded on the system, and is inherent to how the samples work (very narrow inaccurate looping points which shift the frequency). It permeates the entire soundtrack to different degrees, with some instances being nearly a quarter tone off. Getting your instruments to play in tune is one of the most basic things you ought to get right, especially for sequenced music where performance skills are a non-factor. The Genesis music is at worst inoffensively shallow, while the SNES port is a failure on a fundamental level.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Which is ironic because Mario's cry is supposed to be annoying. It's like they give you an incentive to become a better player. In fact, every time i get hit, i try my absolute best to get Mario back before he even gets his first cry. I never "let go". I find it pretty funny personally. I love the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010
Yeah, and baby Mario's cry isn't even nearly as annoying as an actual baby crying to begin with. It doesn't even sound like a real baby.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
The first Yoshi's Island had some innovative gameplay, and it was pretty damn hard too. It's crazy to look at the 3DS game and see how much easier and... babyfied it is (what the hell is this!?). It's like Kirby games weren't easy enough, so now Yoshi's Nintendo's go-to baby game character.
^To be fair(unless I'm missing something about a specific game or 2) Kirby was never a Nintendo development.
Yeah, especially when they have no reason to. Like when a thread actually has "SNES" in it's title. :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentlegamer
Funny how it's not Genesis owners starting up with this kind of bullshit, 25+ years after the fact, in the first place. They're juts reactionary to SNErdiSt bullshit. You can point to this thread, but the point is how SNES fanboys won't accept anything less that everyone worshiping the console. If Genesis fans have an "inferiority complex," it's because those that still care are not going to roll over and give up to a loud minority's revisionist take on things.Quote:
The real problem, as I see it, is Sega fans have a long standing inferiority complex and 1) need to proclaim utter superiority of Genesis at all times, couching that superiority in memes such as "all SNES games are slooooooow",
To take a page from your own book: pot, meet kettle.Quote:
and 2) chafe when someone likes SNES or prefers the SNES version of a game, no matter how that preference is stated.
Listen, if SNErdS want to claim superiority so badly(and Genesis fans have the complex?), knock yourselves out. I'll never agree, but you babies can have your bottle, because I don't care about how consoles/games rank in some top # list makers mind. I just want to enjoy my hobby without some hardware obsessed dickheads telling me I made the wrong choice of hardware in my youth, as if I somehow didn't have just as much, if not more, fun than said assholes.
I don't give a fuck if the SNES version of a game was/is superior in every conceivable way(happens on the Genesis quite a bit too, more than SNErdS are willing to admit. Again, who has that inferiority complex?), if the Genesis version was still serviceable enough to be fun to play. I encourage the same on the SNES/TurboGrafx-16. If you had what you had, enjoy the version you're familiar with.
...or has everyone across this shitty, nerdy invention(internet) simply forgotten what this hobby is about? I mean, fuck, what kind of a dickhead wants to use a 25+ year old argument to try and lord superiority over individuals that didn't make the same choice(again, who has the complex)? Hell, what kind of asshole wants to do it with modern consoles/handhelds?
I can't tell you who won any given advertisement war(really, what the fuck is a "console war" otherwise), but I can tell you who the losers were. The assholes that are still this firmly on the side of one company, still trying to keep this kind of argument alive today. Which isn't what this thread was about, so much as how one side is ridiculous in not accepting that one could not be in total love with their favorite. In other words, the other side of the losers.
P.S. I'm not apologizing about profanity. This asshole argument is just that tiring.
I think that you're exaggerating it a bit. I most certainly know when I'm hearing a note that is flat or sharp, being that I played a trumpet from 5th grade to my senior year in high school. I happen to love the Vega theme song, because the trumpet sounds have really good attack and decay and sound very close to the real thing. The same with the wailing trumpet in the opponent challenge screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeckoYamori
It is not an exaggeration. It is simply a objectively measurable fact that Street Fighter 2 is one of the worst offenders on the system when it comes to improperly tuned samples. Whether you are personally bothered enough by it or not is a different matter, but that doesn't make it any less true. Given that I have actively honed my listening skills for most of my life, I'm probably more sensitive than most, but in this case I don't think you need anywhere near absolute pitch to notice something is seriously wrong. Especially Vega's theme which is markedly dissonant right from the start.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
I love how SNES fanboys often say that someone who's defending Genesis just have "rose nostalgia glasses on", even thought it's the other way around (most of the time).
To be honest, I was born when 4th generation systems/games were not revelant anymore. In childhood I hadn't had any of these systems, I didn't knew they even existed. I don't remember how and why, but when I was teenager, I began to take an interest in history of PCs, software, games and, of course, video game systems. And seamlessly I started to become a SEGA (MD/Genesis) fan. That's strange, isn't it? The system is quite older than me and is not revelant anymore.
I don't know if that was an attitude of company, asthetics of system, but I started to love SEGA and Genesis/Mega Drive. I immediately fell in love with Genesis unique sound and music. Even last year I listened mostly to only Genesis/MD/32x OST's, not regular music. There's just something magical about sound chips in G/MD. And every time I tried to listen to SNES OST's, I just got bored or meh. I don't say it's bad. It's just not what I would listen to, even thought I prefer calm music.
Long story short: As the my story above shows, not nostalgia or not only nostalgia makes people like particular system, in this case Genesis/MD.
Just like what you like and don't spread false rumors, like: the only Genesis strenght is CPU (when in reality resolution for games is better than on SNES and sound between two are debatable), and so on. But it's hard to change something about these rumours, because of people, for example, like James Rolfe, who are popular and sometimes too ignorant. I'm a fan of AVGN series thought.
Yeah, he's HAL, but considering he's only been on Nintendo consoles (and Iwata himself worked on them back in the day), I just lumped him in Nintendo.Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightrider
That Yoshi's New Island theme kinda sounds like a Crash Bandicoot song.
Yeah, i'd rather play Crash though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeckoYamori
Let me ask you this. Have you ever seriously played a musical instrument?
I ask this, because to play a musical instrument, you most definitely have to have your ears in tune with every note and the tempo that you are playing at.
I'm dead serious when I ask how someone would think that this (The main instrument sounds like it was generated by the 2600).....
Sounds even remotely better than this?
Fine tuned ears. :daze:
^
It's obviously not a good Genesis VGM,
but on SNES it not only sounds insipid but wrong too. There's probably something wrong with it.
They both sound bad. That's it.
Thanks for confirming what the first post said.Quote:
Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010
Seriously, people who don't like Yoshi's Island are just awful at it? Apparently there isn't such a thing as simply not being to one's taste?
Has nothing to do with taste. I could see some people not liking some of the gameplay mechanics. It's just the excuses some make for sucking at a game because they get annoyed at Mario's crying and say it's not worth playing. A baby is supposed to cry. People need to get over it. Try and save Mario quickly. It's not that hard to recover.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sik
To answer to the question at hand: it's a waste of time to talk to to irrational fanboys, no matter what system they root for.
Time is precious resource.
I've owned and beat Yoshi's Island back in the day one. Was a good game and pretty epic game that one and only playthrough. But the thing that really pissed my brother and I about it is that they ditched the world maps of SMB3 & World. Those maps added so much more to the imagination and immersion (especially as kid). It also adds better to memory, as for SMB3 & World I remember where certain memorable levels and secrets where located on the map. Here in Yoshi's Island, it's all a blur. And as messed up as this sound, it's actually a personal reason I don't care much for this entree (maybe why I also never bothered to find everything in this game too). Miyamoto's focus on just gameplay is a little too much ever since. Immersion is what big time helps fuel the fanboy fire too, which results in more hype and free publicity. You'd think developers would approve.
I know JRPG isn't a very popular genre in the west (or even in Japan nowadays) because with a few exceptions (series we all know) this was never true but having FFVII as a threshold is silly (too high!).Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightrider
How many japanese games sold more than FFVII did on PS1 (9.81 million units) if we exclude Nintendo?
You can use the fingers of one hand to count them.
EDIT:
No, the only accurate data is the million seller shipment data provided by Nintendo which is worldwide (you can subtract the japanese shipment data if a game is a million seller but the number of million seller in Japan isn't that big):Quote:
Originally Posted by zetastrike
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=963700
I have, but that's kind of beside the point. Years upon years of critical listening for analytical purposes has yielded a lot more than something I did a long time ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
I've analyzed and reverse engineered the Vega track, and I think I figured out what the main problem is, which is the attack of the trumpet sample (which I think is actually supposed to be a trombone, but the short loop can't give it the decay needed, so it has a more sustaine brightness turning it into some kind of weird hybrid). The attack part itself is a slightly different pitch from the sustain/loop (looks like around 10 cents), which is pretty normal when it comes to instruments like brass or guitars. Thing is, it is being played in rapid staccato sequences, but the sample itself is not really a staccato articulation and was not meant to be used as such. So the attack becomes the dominant part of what you're hearing, and in turn the different pitch since the sample was tuned with the sustain part in mind, and so it sounds off relative to the other instruments being played.
Here's a .spc rip of the original with the tonal instruments isolated, followed by my own mockup using the same ripped and re-tuned samples, and then finally one where I edited out the attack from the sample leaving only the sustain.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66640537/sf2.mp3
And then, here's a short looped excerpt of the original followed by a mockup where I re-tune it with the attack in mind and leave out the sustain.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...37/sf2%202.mp3
^Long story short, same with the consoles on the whole: Different strokes, for different folks. It shouldn't be necessary to understand why someone doesn't prefer one consoles sounds(or anything else about it) over the other. Just deal with it, and listen to(/play the games on) the one you're going to. Edit: Guess what I'm trying to say is that, if you both hear something different, you're not likely to convince the other.
If the genre was to have suddenly burst in popularity because of that game, would it not stand to reason that it's own sequels should have sold just as well, if not better? Then other games in the genre should have begun to sell exceptionally well too. That's the problem with the argument, is when someone suggests it made the genre mainstream, when it was little more than an overhyped game, that made publishers take more of a chance on localizing the genre at the time. Then the 'net nerd fans of something like the "Tales of" series don't appreciate the bone they're given when they do get a localized game within, because the series obviously doesn't sell well enough here for continuous localizations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Folco
It's not a trombone. The artist was going for a Spanish Bullfight sounding song, to fit the theme for Vega. Vega's costume is that of a bull fighter. The Spanish Bullfight Songs have a trumpet lead, with maybe a couple of trombones in accompaniment. A trombone will have a sliding tone when it changes notes.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeckoYamori
Here's the exact tune created using Mario Paint. The flowers are trumpets.