Of course. I don't have flash carts yet, nor a gaming room big enough for more then two consoles set up. But why, what's up?Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Of course. I don't have flash carts yet, nor a gaming room big enough for more then two consoles set up. But why, what's up?Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
You do know that an LCD display (cheap display will add a lot) will add additional lag, as well as the quality of the emulator?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
I don't notice any input lag on PCE and Genesis emulators. Tight as a snapper. I mean, you'd think emulator coders would know this since all PC users use LCD displays anyway. Not like these emulators users expect everyone to use CRTs (why bother with filters then). I mean, don't tell me modern consoles lag on new LCDs too?Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
What do you think "game mode" is for? (and in some cases that's still not enough to remove all the lag, there's a reason why Guitar Hero has a calibration screen)Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
LCD lag is mostly a problem with TVs which have a shitton of filters though to make up for the shit screens and to artificially increase the price. Computer monitors are a whole different story (you may get ghosting and/or discoloring on awful screens, but they aren't really laggy as far as reaction goes). An emulator on a PC probably is not having any more lag than what the GPU normally adds (i.e. 1-2 frames at 60Hz at worst).
Alright, I did some research (along with some more Parodius playing). And turns out all LCDs have input lag no matter what, lol. Not to mention even more ms delay from everyone using wireless controllers. Today's gaming is more messed up then I thought!
Anyway, will see about tracking a CRT monitor sooner then later. Thanks, gamevet. You are my hero.
Yes, my HDTV thankfully has gamemode. And my PC monitor is fried, so I can't test to see how it compares to a monitor. Though I never noticed a difference when going back and forth between HDTV and monitor before, there probably is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sik
Also, when I last played Parodius on PCE emu, I did notice some input lag this time. But still quite the difference between it and ZSNES Parodius.
EDIT - quick question. Would 4:3 aspect ratio on a 16:9 HDTV cut down on lag, since less of the screen is not needed to fill?
Native resolution would be probably your best bet since it won't waste time rescaling at all... but honestly it entirely depends on the TV in question.
For LCD HDTVs, one way to cut down on lag and ghosting is to put the sharpness of the screen at zero in the TV settings menu for most TVs or so I read.
Edit: For some TVs it may need to be just above zero.
Yeah, but it's still a clusterfux for modern gaming when you add HDTV lag, wireless gamepad lag and online gaming lag all combining to transform into megasauruslag. Lucky I always hardwire my gampads to eliminate one of 3 issues. But most gamers play wireless, on a bad wireless wifi and hosting from mars. It's like we're all conditioned for the worse quality in all facets of life, therefore don't know better. ... But look how pretty megasauraslag looks on HDTV!Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeDeeNo76
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck1zysvWYAAWr96.jpg
:p
Now try playing a rhythm game on modern displays. There was a whole subculture of Guitar Hero/Rock Band fans that went to great lengths to find displays to minimize the lag that can make rhythm games impossible to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Yes, I read earlier today that Guitar Hero has an HDTV lag test.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentlegamer
http://www.dummies.com/wp-content/up...6.guitar-4.jpg
http://www.dummies.com/wp-content/up...8.guitar-5.jpg
I recently bought my first LCD TV and specifically chose a model that allegedly had very little lag. That...turned out not to be true. I tried playing Dreamcast via VGA > HDMI, and then tried playing an emulator on my laptop that was piped out via the HDMI port. In both cases, the added lag was significant enough to make gameplay joyless.
It's a shame, since the screen is gorgeous, at least by my admittedly-low standards. But any ambitions I had of picking up a Framemeister are irrelevant now, because if there's >100 ms. added lag on a native HDMI source, what's the point of the pretty pictures?
Yes, I too just read earlier today that the Vizio D Series 1080p 2016 had the least of lag. Bummer that it turned out not to be true.
CRT: still the king!
Maybe my equipment is just good (probably) but lag on modern games has been a zero issue for me, even with wireless controllers.
That includes Rock Band & Guitar Hero games too.
Agreed. I just tried some experiments, using various configurations of hardware and recording myself hitting the button to throw a fireball in SMB. I then measured the distance between the initial attack of the button sound, and the initial attack of the fireball sound. Obviously this is a rough metric, but I think it should yield roughly accurate results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentlegamer
And those results were kind of eye-opening:
Nestopia emulator on MacBook Pro laptop: ~95ms between button press and beginning of fireball sound
Dreamcast on CRT, NesterDC 6.0: ~145ms
Emulator on Mac, mini-DP to HDMI adapter, HDMI out to Vizio TV, game mode? (I didn't keep great notes on this or the next one): ~205ms
Emulator on Mac, mini-DP to HDMI adapter, HDMI out to Vizio TV, default mode?: ~230ms
Actual NES on CRT, AV out: essentially instantaneous -- maybe 25ms at the absolute most in certain cases, which would be ~1.5 frames, but the trailing edge of the button sound intersects the beginning of the fireball sound so it's hard to be exact
I hadn't realized quite how much lag Nestopia or NesterDC were contributing to the equation.
If you were using Nestopia on a Mac (or even modern PC) I'm assuming you were using DOSBox to run it?
I would think emuception would contribute to lag by a great factor.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...ps0289e4ea.jpg
Do you have an AVS? I'd like to see how it measures up.
I'm running the Mac port of v1.4.1 by Richard Bannister. Are you sure you're not thinking of Nesticle? (I think that's your screenshot there)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentlegamer
I wish I did! I was considering getting one until I realized how much the HDMI input on the Vizio was lagging. I can't really justify buying another TV, but I could try to find a monitor with near-zero lag. (Or...I could just play on my CRT & NES? :D )Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentlegamer
My feeble mind read Nestopia as Nesticle.
Now I want a Nesticle test!
I never liked Nestopia. Some of the emulators for Nintendo systems are a pain in the ass for me.
I don't agree (though I stil have an old 14 inch CRT) CRT TV's sets are simply too big and bulky for me in 2days world . Sure I miss that true High Res shimmer you get from a Saturn High Res game, but I'm loving playing the Saturn through my Framister on the 55 inch TV . Sure there's a tiny bit of lag, but you have to be really anal to make out it affects most games . I do miss the fact I can't use light guns or my old 3D Master System glasses (the effect still looks great)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentlegamer
Eh, I don't even use my Dreamcast VGA box with LCD, because it looks like ass. It looks much better on my HD CRT using S-Video.
It's not only the input lag you have to deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
It's also the blurry scrolling. I don't know how good the latest TVs are with this, but i personally never seen any non-CRT panel yet that doesn't blur the image (even slightly) while it's moving. Thus, 2D scrolling games look like ass in non-CRT displays. Even modern "pixel art" scrolling games would look better on an old CRT.
Ya, that's a pretty common problem with LCD panels ("LED" TVs also use LCD panels). Plasma TVs are much better at handling scrolling (and have picture quality in general much better and actually similar to CRT but sadly aren't made any more). I think the newest OLED panels don't have this problem (but those are still expensive).Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
Yeah it's a problem with LCD in general, the only way to avoid those big issues seems to be to reduce contrast a bit (so colors aren't on the extremes). LCD is a shit technology in general (even today it suffers from discoloration a lot for example), it just happened to be one of the earliest technologies available that allowed flat screens that were, um, usable (plasma has the issue of huge power consumption and dying faster than CRTs, since it works essentially like a huge neon light)
I know I said talked about the sharpness on HDTV in my post #768 but I went and tried to look up where I got my info, Patrick Norton & Robert Heron of HD Nation.
So basically to get the best fastest picture turn off all picture enhancements, one may need to dig around to find them all the less the TV does to "enhance" the picture the better. Calibrate the picture settings but first set the picture temperature to Normal or the middle selection. I do the calibration be eye others may need to use a calibration disk or software. Adjust the picture size to get rid of overscan on Samsung TVs it is called Just Scan, overscan can add artifacts to the picture. Last is what I posted yesterday turn the sharpness down start at zero go up till the picture look best to much sharpness also adds artifacts to the picture but set it really low.
There's a lot of myths floating around about plasma. The earlier sets had some issues, but they were more than ironed out over time. It does use more power, but not orders of magnitude more, maybe an extra $1-2 on your electric bill. They do die faster, but more than enough operating hours for normal use. If you ran one 24/7, it should still last about a decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sik
Overall, it's much much better than LCD for picture quality.
I had a Samsung Plasma TV in my dorm room a year ago and that thing took 240p over component like a champ. It was an F4500 series. I had my component modded MD hooked up to it and there were zero artifacts and no lag that I ever noticed.
The Lag I've never had issues with or could really see unless I really.. really want to be anal and look for it . Bluring again I've had no issues and on the Framister some Saturn games look better to me . I'm well happy with the result and plus of coruse I don't get the issue of the image moving to left a little that I got with almost any import Scart based system back in the day and you don't have to have a massive house or the need to be HULK to move around the TV like you did with CRT back inthe day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
I get that lag is there, but to me its not a issue at all . It looks stunning when using the Frame (please I know the mobile phones shots aren't the best)
https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8538/2...625ecfd7_o.jpg
https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8157/2...aef9f00a_o.jpg
https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8403/2...8624d945_o.jpg
https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8099/2...1c949f0d_o.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8560/2...84116090_o.jpg
https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8432/2...ab9b7edd_o.jpg
https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8814/2...abfcd050_o.jpg
https://c4.staticflickr.com/9/8004/2...a8a22925_o.jpg
I don't have that issue with my 52" Samsung LCD, or my 24" LG LCD. They both have pixel response time under 5 ms, and the Samsung has 120hz Motion Rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
Is that Princess Crown? The picture looks quite nice there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Yes it is.
Yes it is . Here's some more Saturn shots running on FrameQuote:
Originally Posted by xelement5x
https://c2.staticflickr.com/9/8100/2...280e108e_o.jpg
https://c4.staticflickr.com/9/8550/2...f1c44b25_o.jpg
https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8744/2...6a9a74ce_o.jpg
https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8226/2...12e7b28d_o.jpg
https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8011/2...7f1c702f_o.jpg
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7479/2...66e10907_o.jpg
The Framemeister is nearly $500. That'a as much as I paid for my second Sony 32" HD CRT on clearance in 2005. Yeah, I have to man-handle all 165 pounds of television when I move it, but it does the job.
The Frame is a solution to an issue . Paid £220 quid for mine brand new and it's one of the best pick up I've ever done . Like many here, I grew up with and spent most of my gaming life on CRT, but they had their day and the Frame display and output is almost as good as CRT and its an increbile productQuote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8296/2...d3db42a9be.jpg
https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8649/2...afe4d9ab66.jpg
https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8107/2...6107701078.jpg
https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8514/2...f95b35bde4.jpg
https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8478/2...634cbdff_o.jpg
https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8709/2...51afbd32_o.jpg
https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7477/2...2554f0fd_o.jpg
I'm not denying that it is an awesome solution, but it also requires a lot of console modifications before you can use the device. Nowadays you can get a CRT for free, and even I keep a 27" SD CRT around for light gun games.
I don't even know what 200 quid amounts to in US dollars. I'm pretty sure it's over $300 though.
It doesn't require any console mod to use the Frame . It accepts Scart, RCA and S-Video straight out of the box .Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Is that an older model?Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
The one I was looking at didn't have composite input. I know that Ball Sack had an episode where they were modding the video output on a couple of Dave's consoles, so he could do video capture.
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/framemeister01.jpg
How many models are there both old and new, is it Micomsoft or Framemeister or XRGB Mini (is there a bigger one or more), why does the price range from $300 to $600?
What is all of this stuff under this Amazon reviewer's "list of things you will need to do".
Quote:
10 of 10 people found the following review helpful
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....192240867_.gif I love the XRGB Mini, but it's not for everyone., February 3, 2016 By Christopher Galgon
This review is from: Unit DP3913547 XRGB Mini Framemeister Micomsoft Upscaler Japan Import by Denpashinbunsya (Personal Computers)
If you love retro gaming, even prefer it to modern games, and prefer the real hardware over emulators, this is for you. It's by far the best way to play old NES, Genesis and SNES games and enjoy them the way they deserve to be enjoyed. The XRGB Mini not only makes your old games playable and responsive on an HDTV, it makes them look amazing-- crisp, colorful, and with optional scanlines that you can adjust to suit your personal tastes.
The downside of the Mini is that there is a big learning curve and monetary expenditure involved that reaches well beyond the device itself. Your old game consoles won't look their best without European SCART cables, each costing you an Andrew Jackson apiece. And the NES, probably the most popular of all the classic consoles, requires an expensive modification to use SCART cables, else it looks bad even with the Mini. Finally, even though the Mini reduces gaming lag to a bare minimum, your HDTV may add much more, ruining your gameplay anyway. Also, because we're talking about a Japanese item that requires cables from Europe, you'll need to do some hunting for these items online.
So, here is a list of things you will need to do if you want to get the most from the XRGB Mini:
Buy the Mini itself
Buy a Euro-SCART adapter for the Mini (the one in the box looks right but is NOT compatible with the correct signals)
Buy a SCART or component cable for every vintage device you wish to connect.
Buy a SCART switch to select between video sources (harder than it sounds, most cheap ones won't work)
If any of your systems will use component video, buy a Japanese D-Terminal cable to connect to the Mini.
Locate instructions to change the Mini's language to English (the machine arrives speaking all-Japanese)
Buy a remote control overlay to translate your controller's buttons to English.
Research your HDTV model to determine how much "lag" it has. If the number is above 40ms, reconsider your options.
Of course you can try the unit out without all these things, but I dare any gamer willing to spend the cash for this device who will not buy all the rest. At the end of the day, the XRGB Mini is the best at what it does. It makes your old game consoles look and play great! But if you're anything but hard core, you might want to first try a system like the Retron 5. And regular, old fashioned TVs are being given away every day. They can make your systems look great for free.
That's pretty close to what I was saying. I'm pretty sure that TA was using scart with those Saturn shots.