So childish and so wrong .You 're completely and utterly wrong about the Framister, quite obviously never even used one and miss the whole point of the unit . Emu can be great though I guess, unless its makes Snes games sound better than they actually do on real hardware .Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
Playing 240p console games through RGB looks just like arcade games from bitd, which were directly hooked up to RGB monitors. Seeing the pixelart is not a bad thing and 16-bit arcade games on giant arcade monitors never looked hideous. Just the opposite.
Although I don't like the look of 240p games on digital screens, the captured upcaled footage does look noticeably different from emulation and feels solid. You get the pros of perfect picture quality without any of the cons from emulation.
It still has an uncanny valley sort of feel to it on digital screens and if I was forced to [i]play[/p] on one, I would never consider ruining it with fake scanlines or other filters and I'd rather play fast-response console games on a crt with stock composite than deal with the lag from both the framemeister (no matter how tiny) and hdtvs.
The fake scanlines are a joke IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
But it has become some sort of seal of quality for elitists such as TA.
It really doesn't make sense when you don't have the kind of brightness and contrast of a good CRT (the ultra slim ones also lack in the area but they usually don't feature thick scanlines either).
The edges are still quite sharper than you have on RGB + CRT, especially in the peripheral areas of the screen. It can be good and it can be bad, depending on which system and which game you're running on it.
Metal Slug looked great, Magic Knight Rayearth not so much IMO.
And the capture thing I was referring to was stuff like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yX1vxr5PGU
The scanlines look like shit thanks to YouTube's compression; maybe at 1080p with more bandwidth it could look OK; but as it is it only contributed to make the image darker, less accurate to actual thing and filled with artifacts.
Recent Retro Core captures have the same issue. TA and that guy seem to be members of the same church.
Barone and TA, get out of the topic for good. This fighting has got to stop now. If you guys want to bitch about TV's and Saturns and all that jargon, create a topic. I will PM you guys if you have any intent on coming back and causing another fight, and I will go to BonusKun if you two can't be civil.
Anybody check out the iretrogamer video on the Zombies series? Ghoul Patrol seems like an out of place game despite intentions to be a Zombies Ate My Neighbors sequel.
The topic has been derailed ages ago. Deal with it, kid.Quote:
Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010
No, I'm not gonna fuckin deal with it. You two are acting like sore losers who think they have to one up each other every time they think the other is wrong. Both of you have caused a number of fights in this topic. If you can't be civil, I will report both of you for fighting and harassment. I don't want to be a rat, but I will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
If someone handed me $500 to spend on game stuff, I'd rather spend it on games or a piece of hardware and play it on a CRT over s-video than waste it on a scaler that gives me the same result as connecting my pc to my HDTV through HDMI and running an emulator. Should I put my gamer card through the shredder now or when I get home?
Sorry, but you've been acting like a thin skinned kid since the beginning of the topic; asking for moderation all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010
The topic you created has clearly ran its course at this point and I didn't start this frameister discussion, so cool off with your bs and enjoy your derailed thread.
You don't own a frameister, you can't comment here bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by zetastrike
Says the hypocrite. Because you're acting like a lunatic and being involved in a number of fights. Both you and Andromeda. You're not as civil as you think you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
Practice what you preach, kid.Quote:
Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010
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Originally Posted by zetastrike
Think you missing the point of the frame . It's not for people who have a CRT, its not for people who want to emu . Its for people who still have old 240p hardware and who's CRT have either died and been replaced or simply don't have the room or space for a CRT any more given the space and the weight of big CRT takes up and want to play their old consoles on modern TV that look as good as possible . And my GOD man S-Video ? RGB Scart is the way to go;) .
People go on about cost . The Frammister cost me £200, The Graphic card in my PC cost more than that on its own .
Says the hypocrite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
Calm down. :lol:
I don't know, didn't seem like these two were fighting to me. And I much enjoyed the read on this nice lazy Sunday early afternoon.
One thing I don't like about fake scanlines is that everybody gets them wrong. Scanlines are more pronounced with dark shades, bright shades tend to make the line thicker (because more phosphor gets excited by the beam). If you have a white screen and the scanlines are blatant, something is wrong. On the other hand, if the screen is showing dark gray the scanlines should be as blatant as possible.
I think it was "makes it look like an emulator would" (in regards to video quality, i.e. sharp pixels) which is probably correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I'm having a wonderful time here actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Exactly my points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sik
IDK why people take so much offense when we refer to emulation.
When it comes to scanlines, there ain't nothing like the real thing. The best we can do is approximate it. I think the Framemeister is good enough for most people who are after scan lines. Though I would be interested to see someone write a really accurate scanline generator taking into account the phenomena you describe. I wonder if such a thing exists already...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sik
The bigger lag is going to come from the HDTV itself. The best thing would be to find a gaming PC monitor with really low lag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
If it's contrast ratio you're after, then a good plasma or OLED screen should fit the bill. A cheap LED or LCD Black Friday Walmart special is going to have terrible contrast ratio.
I think the OSSC is quite promising and a viable option that didn't exist until fairly recently. Haven't tried one out myself, but from what I hear, it functions differently from the Framemeister.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeDeeNo76
This post made me LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
TA - I think Barone is purposely trying to rile you up, best to ignore him, no way he's actually this ignorant.
Framemeister fanboys unite! Someone critized it, OMG!!!
:lol:
But sadly no insult will remove the artifacts nor it will fix the image brightness and contrast. :(
http://i.imgur.com/FFlMeUQ.png
Why are those scanlines so skinny?
I think you're right. Its quite clear he's never used the unit or even seen one in action for real and totally missed the point of the unit too . Ingronce is blissQuote:
Originally Posted by Tower of Power
:nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I have to assume you're taking the piss, trying to rile up TA by doing the same thing he does - taking screenshots and YouTube videos out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
It's a known issue with the Framemeister that scanlines don't look right at 1080p - everyone knows this, and to pretend like you it's not a known issue is just ignorance on your part. Also, it's a known issue that scanlines from the Framemeister don't look right on YouTube, that's why channels like Game Sack and My Life in Gaming tend to capture footage with the scanlines turned off, unless they're doing a close up. Maybe you should buy one instead of relying on YouTube screen caps? Makes me laugh that you would even try to do that.
Also, the scanlines out of the box are mainly designed for use with 720p. If you want to use them with 1080p, you will probably want to get some good profiles made, the ones from the Pixel Purist work pretty good for me. Otherwise they will look uneven like in the screenshot you posted. Scanlines on the Frameister are by no means perfect, the best scanlines come from a CRT. Maybe a separate SLG would work better if you're really picky about it. But the Framemeister is not a scanline generator first and foremost, so critisizing it for that is like 10% of what it does. If everything is configured coffectly, the scanlines from it look pretty decent for 2D stuff like the Genesis. I also like to have them on if I'm running something on composite input, it masks some of the composite video artifacts. I tend to turn them off if I'm running early 3D stuff like Virtua Fighter. But that's the thing with the Framemeister - if you don't like how something looks, you can turn it off/tweak it, by no means are you required to run the Framemeister with scanlines on.
The Framemeister is by no means perfect, but scanlines are far from the biggest issue - people complain about the colors not being right, and often, the analog to digital conversion can be noisy, it doesn't handle resolution changes very well, and from what I hear it doesn't handle 480p very well (haven't tried it myself). So to criticize it so heavily for that is just ignorant and laughable.
The video I linked doesn't even have a 1080p option, lol. You'd know that if you had actually watched it instead of insulted me multiple times for no reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower of Power
All that I said is that Youtube has a limited bandwidth for each resolution, it's also a well known fact. And it sucks because it forces you to upscale videos in order to avoid compression artifacts as much as possible.
I didn't say TA had to record it at 1080p or even force Framemeister to work at 1080p. But he'll probably get less artifacts in his youtube videos if he can upscale it to 1080p prior uploading.
You should know that, Mr. Expert.
Like I said, people such as you and TA like to brag about stuff they own as if it would put themselves on a different level or grant them any kind of superiority in discussions.
The captured image is filled with artifacts and its brightness and contrast is ruined. I don't need to spent £200 to notice and comment about that, no, thanks.
By the way, the "logic" of having to own everything in order to have the "right" to understand how things work is the opposite of being wise and having expertise on something.
You don't HAVE to own it, but if you're attempting to speak with authority on the subject (which you are) it's much better to speak from the experience of actually owning it, rather than the ignorance of not owning it. You are ignorant about the Framemeister, that is a fact, and the things you are saying are ignorant and wrong. And that's not an insult, that is a fact. You don't have to own one, they're not for everyone, you don't even have to like them, but if you're going to spew false information about it, you're going to get called out on it. You say the scanlines on the Framemeister are a joke, and as proof, you offer someone else's YouTube video? That's poor proof indeed. The fact that you would do it seems like a joke to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
The uneven scanlines in the picture you posted are exactly what the Framemeister looks like when you try to play in 1080p without configuring it properly - and I speak from experience here. The Framemeister looks much better than that when configured properly, I don't purport to know exactly how that YouTube video was captured (could easily have been captured at 1080p and downscaled), but that's exactly how the scanlines look on the Framemeister when it's not calibrated correctly, and I'm telling you again (from experience) that that can be fixed. The brightness and contrast being "ruined" is your opinion, and is the side effect of any sort of scanline generator, nothing inherent to the Framemeister and can be compensated for with calibration if such a thing bothers you. If anything, the brightness/contrast of how the image actually looks like on scree depends more on the monitor than anything. So, trying to use that video as some sort of proof of the Framemeister's inadequacy is ignorant and reeks of insecurity on your part. There's plenty of VALID criticisms to be levied at the Framemeister.
And, again, the scanlines can be turned off on the Framemeister if they bother you.
If I recall correctly, the Framemeister's main problem with regards to colours is YUV420 colourspace compression. It stores the entire frame in the framebuffer, and converts it from RGB to YUV420.
Anyone that's worked in video editing knows why this is a terrible idea.
Of course, actually showing captured examples is quite difficult. And an extremely expensive proposition. I have seen a few comparison shows in the past explaining why this is an issue, however, and will continue to try finding them. Needless to say, however, it gives the OSCC a huge lead for actually doing everything in RGB.
Hell, with more modern CRTs, the Composite decoders combined with GLORIOUS PAL can easily end up showing up dithering anyway, even on older machines such as the Mega Drive and the SNES.Quote:
Originally Posted by tryphon
Not just transmission technology has gotten better, but TVs have too. I recall my childhood TV from the 90s showing Mega Drive games up as relatively blurry via RF, and dithering actually working. The same Mega Drive over Composite on a TV I picked up for $30 new from The Reject Shop in 2009? Much much sharper.
Try emulators throughhomebrewthe virtual console on the Wii at some point, also. Even through Composite, modern encoders are very sharp.
It's clear that you had no good reason to pick on my comments other than find a way to insult me, since you agreed with me two times already that TA's YT video doesn't look right; which was exactly what I said when you called me "ignorant". Which means you're just being cynical at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower of Power
I never said the scanlines were obligatory on the Framemeister. AggroSky uses it without the scanlines and his captures look awesome, like I said in other threads weeks ago. And that's why I criticize TA's and Retro Core's usage of it, which somehow allowed you to call me "ignorant" once again and suggest that I was just trolling TA.
By the way, the points gamevet and others had raised and which ignited the discussion are valid and still stand though:
- Depending on the consoles/systems you own, mod you'll be required to use it (unlike TA said initially).
- Framemeister scanlines aren't equivalent to CRT scanlines.
- CRT TVs still handle funky resolution changes better than the Framemeister and the OSSC.
I have very good reason - you obviously have a bone to pick with the Framemeister and no ground to stand on, and you seem to think that people who own it are "elitists" or some other nonsense, and comparing it to an emulator. Honestly, I thought you are just trolling TA at first, but it seems like you were actually serious and are now back pedaling after being called out for it. If you make valid points, I will agree with you, if you hyperbolize and make BS claims, I will call you out for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
As for the other points:
- Like I already said, the Framemeister supports input over composite and S-video as well as RGB. So, unless you're using something like an Atari 2600, you don't HAVE to mod anything. Unless you want RGB output, of course.
- Framemeister scanlines are definitely not equivalent to CRT scanlines, of course. But, when configured properly, they look fine (scanlines not being the main function of the Framemeister anyway).
- I can't speak for the OSSC, but this is definitely true for the Framemeister.
Lol, I didn't back pedal at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower of Power
The shots TA used to spam the thread have two major similarities with emulation shots IMO: the fake scanlines and the sharpness.
And the way you both handled the criticism towards the equipment was surely elitist: criticizing people for talking about/questioning it without owning it, resorting to insults and spamming screen shots (TA only).
But I appreciate the information you shared, thanks.
Can't remember the exact model, but it's a Samsung 32" one that's 1080p from about 2 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I'd check but i'm not at home.
To be fair, that's an intentional design choice because of the fact that Minecraft is voxel based.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
It's meant to scale down to lower end hardware.
EDIT: Woops, I double posted. Sorry mods.
If you knew anything about the Framemeister, you would know that sharpness can be adjusted. Some people prefer razor sharp pixels (and indeed, this is what a lot of the people who will see capturing videos and screenshots striving for), but if you wanted a slightly "fuzzier" look that is achievable as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
As soon as the Framemeister was brought up, you began posting immature insults and troll posts like a jealous and ignorant child. Here's a sampling:
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Originally Posted by Barone
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Originally Posted by Barone
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Originally Posted by Barone
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Originally Posted by Barone
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Originally Posted by Barone
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Originally Posted by Barone
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Originally Posted by Barone
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Originally Posted by Barone
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Originally Posted by Barone
TA posted one post with screenshots. So, who's the one spamming this thread? Seems like it's just you, no one else here has a bone to pick with the Framemeister like you do, other posters have posted plenty of valid, informed criticisms of it.
You can talk about it/question it without owning it just fine. Like I said, there's valid criticisms to be made of it, but you are not making valid criticisms.
I was under the assumption Minecraft used textured polygons.
Unrelated, but Tower of Power, is your name a reference to Croc? Or is it just a funny name.
It's a reference to people stacking up the Genesis, Sega CD, 32X, sometimes people call that the "Tower of Power." Hence, the avatar with the Altered Beast transformation background ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades
Well done. Carry on.
You shouldn't click on the last page of a thread and then tell those involved in recent discussion what's actually being posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower of Power
TA owns a Wondermega and is therefore smarter than the rest of us combined, therefore he should be able how to figure out how to post links, instead of spamming oversized pics which burn through your data plan on a single page.
I had to edit out the display of the first pic of TA's recent posts, to come in at the limite:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Meanwhile Barone posted a single screenshot.
BTW, that last pic TA posted is 2600 pixels wide.
What utter nonsense . I don't know maybe importing stuff to Brazil can be very expensive, who knows and who cares, but owning a Framemister is hardy 'Elitist' or indeed that hard . Anyone can quite easily pick one up from the likes of Amazon Japan or the like. To see you take issue with insults, is irony at its peak (more so after the insults you've leveled at me on in this thread and others) . It's quite clear that not only do you not have the 1st clue what you're talking about when it comes to the Framemister, it's not quite clear you haven't seen one in action at all. It's also quite clear you're a complete and utter hyprocit on so this and so many issues..... and for what .....Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
All because, you feel the need to try and make the Mega Drive be the best. Pretty lame and Sad really
*Or maybe I'm more of a Mega Drive and SEGA fan that the rest of you combined ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
* May not be entirely accurate