Subject says it all folks.
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Subject says it all folks.
Why prescribe synthetic medicine over natural medicine?
Please give me some examples of natural medicines and what they treat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Synthetic methadone over natural heroin to treat heroin, oxycontin and/or methadone addiction.
But really, that's dodging the question. If something natural works, why use a synthetic alternative?
Naturally sourced or synthetic, it doesn't matter. All that matters is how it's metabolized.
The word "natural" these days implies some bullshit marketing strategy that a substance is "better" or "safe."
To that I say: "Cyanide is all natural, folks! Try some today! Sprinkle it on your breakfast cereal!"
So all synthetic medicine is better then natural medicine?
Medicine is medicine, natural or "synthetic". What works best is often what's prescribed.
But seems like in today's society only synthetic medicine is being prescribed, as if natural medicine has been wiped off the earth. What's up with that?
Then you need to define what you mean by "natural medicine". Because there are still plenty of medications out there derived from plant based chemicals. I have a pretty good feeling what you're actually referring to are commonly known as "natural remedies".
Ok, so how come nobody talks about natural remedies anymore? And are you sure there's plenty of medications out in drug stores not involving chemical synthesis/chemical manipulations? Because derived is one thing, but once you manipulate it...
I once saw the title credits to Buckaroo Bonzai and never needed to take medicine of any kind ever again from that moment on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MqJ3iGBdOo
So yeah. You're all doing it wrong.
Then why don't I ever hear of doctors prescribing Buckaroo Bonzai credits?
Again, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of chemistry. Using your example of heroin; heroin is not a naturally occurring byproduct of the poppy plant, opium is. Heroin is "synthesized" from opium. So, by your own definition heroin can't be natural.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Heroin is naturally derived from poppy plants. It is not synthetic. However, Methadone is made by chemical synthesis. Therefore not natural and is synthetic.
I would suggest you purchase both basic chemistry and English textbooks as well as a thesaurus.
Molecules are molecules. Nothing magical about them coming from one source or another. If they work, they work. If they don't, they don't.
But let's not forget one incredibly important factor: the placebo effect. The human body is amazing, if you think something is making you better, it can actually do it just through the power of suggestion.
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystalpepsifan
http://www.opium.org/synthetic-opiat...ive-opium.htmlQuote:
Opiates
Many prescription painkillers derive from the opium plant.
The opium poppy seed plant contains natural pain relieving substances known as alkaloids, according to Princeton University. Natural opiate drugs come from natural opium alkaloids, which include:
- Morphine
- Codeine
- Heroin
- Thebaine
- Oripavine
List of Synthetic Opiates
According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse, as many as seven million Americans abused prescription medications in 2010. Prescription drug categories include:
- Pain relievers
- Sedatives
- Tranquilizers
- Stimulants
Out of seven million people, 5.1 million regularly abuse pain relieving opiate drugs. Besides heroin, drugs on the list of synthetic opiates make up the bulk of prescription medications abused.
Some of the most commonly used medications on the list of synthetic opiates include:
- Demerol
- Fentanyl
- Dilaudid
- Norco
- Lortab
- Atarax
- Methadone
- Buprenorphine
Methadone and buprenorphine, while still pain relievers, produce a more controlled effect than other opiates. For this reason, these drugs are often used as treatments for opiate addiction.
Some synthetic opiate drugs can counteract the pain-relieving effects of other opiates. These drugs may also be used to treat opiate addiction. Those commonly used include:
- Naloxone
- Naltrexone
List of Semisynthetic Opiates
Both synthetic and natural opium alkaloids go into the making of semisynthetic opiates. Small concentrations of natural opium alkaloids exist in various amounts depending on the type of drug.
As part of the list of synthetic opiates, semisynthetic medications hold their own in terms of abuse and addictive potential when compared to strictly synthetic opiates.
- Semisynthetic opiate medications include:
- Oxymorphone – contains the natural alkaloid, thebaine
- Hydrocodone – contains the natural alkaloid, codeine
- Oxycodone – contains the natural alkaloid, thebaine
- Hydromorphone – contains the natural alkaloid, morphine
So if given the option of two things working, natural and synthetic, you would trust synthetic to be safer then natural?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower of Power
You too, if given the option of two things working, natural and synthetic, you would trust synthetic to be safer then natural?Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
Which would be fine of your only definition of synthetic is artificial, and not specifically pertaining to the process of chemical synthesis. Surely there's no fooling you. Besides if you're already so dead set in your opinion of what is fact, why bother even asking the questions you're asking? Therefore I stand by my previous post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Seems like there's no getting anywhere with you. Everything is natural and safe to you. Why am I even bothering.
Hey bro, I made this thread for you. Everything is natural, and everything most definitely isn't safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
In the words of Dara O'Briain: Scientists have tested natural remedies, the stuff that works has become known as medicine.
Also. I think Penn & Teller did an episode of Bullshit that was all about natural remedies too, most episodes of that show are worth watching for anyone that believes in loony stuff.
Mad Mohan got to it before I did, but that's the reality of the situation. Natural remedies get tested, the active component gets figured out, that is turned into so called synthetic medicine. The extensive testing also shows possible side effects. Its not that the Natural one doesnt have them, its just that you dont know.
I would trust neither over the other unless it had actually been studied, tested, and had all effects (primary and side effects) known to a reasonable degree of certainty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
"Natural" remedies are often little more than fads.
In the best cases they can be studied and eventually turned into actual medicine. This is mainly true for things that are fairly new. Older remedies (in that, I mean older in regards to modern medicine) has all been pretty well studied.
Newer stuff certainly is found (both natural and entirely man made). But when it's new, the effects tend to be unknown and/or poorly understood, that goes for positive effects as well as negative ones.
Below that are a whole host of concoctions that tend to be looked at to at least some extent. They are usually found to have marginal benefits, if any, and few negative effects. There are loads of these that are sold to people all over the world. Medicine doesn't care about them because they don't do anything really, but if it makes you feel better to take them (placebo effect) then go ahead!
The final group is the shit that is actually bad for you. Either on its own, in large doses, or because it's sold to people as some miracle cure and does jack shit. People often take this crap instead of seeking real treatment, and thus throw away any chance, no matter how slim, of actually surviving. See Steve Jobs for this one, even smart people can get taken in by the hope of "natural" remedies. He had great odds of surviving until he wasted too much time chasing bullshit miracle cures.
TLDR:
If it's worth anything, it's going to be called medicine in one of the major first world countries, or will soon/currently be in the process of being evaluated as medicine.
If it it's not, and especially if it's been around awhile and still not considered medicine, then there's a good chance it does absolutely nothing, and a possible chance it will be actively harmful.
Last few posts have the idea.
If anything, the 'natural' version is more likely to include other unwanted chemicals than the synthetic stuff. Medical efficacy is pretty much the only thing worth evaluating here.
Man, you guys won't be satisfied until nature is completely replaced. Unreal. That one Simpsons episode was right all along.
http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l6...073co1_400.gif
^ IN MEMORY OF A REAL TREE
Hey, so are synthetic herbicides and pesticides safer and healthier then natural herbicides and pesticides because science always trumps nature?
To humans or nature? Most natural pesticides can be pretty bad to humans too. As far as nature is concerned they vary in how good or bad they are, but they're also way less effective (or way more expensive to produce) than the synthetic ones, and for big farms you want effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Most plant based herbicides are less toxic and break down more easily than the synthetic stuff, but that's because the synthetic stuff is made to be way stronger. Farms need it to be. Of course, we could go on a huge discussion on the value of alternative farming methods less reliant on these things, but natural herbicides and pesticides are no panacea.
This thread smells of fluoride.
Have you ever compared eating organic vs non-organic foods for yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Have you ever compared today's leading brand toothpastes with anything else and without fluoride?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoVamp
I grew up in what was essentially a personal farm, with neighbours that also had personal farms, and it was a fishing village so we could get super fresh fish too. So yes I know the difference, but it's not like that sort of home farming is sustainable at a large scale, and my grandfather used synthetic pesticides (my neighbour didn't and there was barely any difference).Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
I grew up on personal farms too. Looked perfectly sustainable too me. And what is barely any difference? And do you live in the city now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
It isn't sustainable because it requires more land/space. Try that in a city where the most "open" space you have available to yourself is a tiny balcony at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
The whole "won't be satisfied until everything is synthetic" is also a bullshit strawman argument.
There's a world of difference between finding what works, why, and how to either purify it or create it and "making everything synthetic".
If we followed your views on things the world would be a much worse place.
Who cares about making more efficient drugs with less and/or less severe unintended effects? That ground up plant does the job for now, and there's no need for anyone to know why, or to make it more effective right?
We can follow that logic to more places too!
Wood and coal are perfectly fine, who needs other "unnatural" sources of energy?
It's been said, but it really is true that the only medicine really worth anything is the one with large scale reliable efficacy following double blind randomised testing and robust peer review.
Otherwise, even when genuinely proposed by someone who wants to help, it is snake oil. If it works, that's lucky.
There is a new approach coming in now though; social prescribing. Drs and other professionals providing the resources to, say, dig over an allotment with others after a back injury. There is a trend to more holistic ways of treating ailments that may get bigger.
I don't disagree that natural may be better, but let's look at 'one of our five a day,' orange juice. Good for us, right? In fact (correct me if this is too simplistic, but I'm 99% sure I have this right) you'd have similar biological effects drinking Coke in equivalent volume and taking a vitamin C tablet.
It's too easy to say natural is always better, and vice versa. It's just more nuanced than that.
There lots of land out there for farming still. Shortage of food isn't the reason people are starving. It's money like it's always been. And today's farming isn't sustainable when it's damaging the environment with synthetic chemicals. But what I really want to know... have you compared certified organic VS non-organic eating lately? I mean, why trust anyone else's tests in such a controversial topic, why not test things for yourself, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by EclecticGroove
Because I haven't been drinking soft drink anymore, the rare chances I do drink it, I feel terrible and can't even finish it. But yeah, try it for yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by cleeg
That has absolutely nothing to do with anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
You did the same thing in one of the last topics similar to this.
Likewise your point of "people won't be happy until everything is fake" is a ridiculous logical disconnect.
You don't have an argument. You have an idea stuck in your head that you want everyone to agree with. You won't accept any other point of view. When points are made, you move the goalposts, or just spout out something that has absolutely nothing to do with anything else.
Certified organic food vs normal food has NOTHING to do with the topic. Both pieces of chicken are still "organic". They are chickens raised in different ways, with (potentially) different feed. Nutrient quality for both will be similar, but taste absolutely can be wildly different.
In the same way, a piece of wilted ass lettuce will have roughly the same nutrients as a piece of fresh lettuce (even if both are "certified organic". But will they taste the same? Will they both be as pleasing to use on a sandwich or in a salad? Not at all.
But besides the point, that still has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the topic of this thread.
And that's saying a lot because the topic of this thread isn't even all that clear.
"Natural medicine" such as things like homeopathy is largely a crock of shit being sold to gullible idiots by charismatic snake oil salesmen. Often with such effectiveness that it lives on long past their being proven blatantly, even maliciously, wrong (Just see the whole anti vaccine issue for that).
Or you can mean medicine's derived from organic substances, which is something very very different.
And that you really need to get into the pro/con of each specific medicine, and often on an individual basis.
Pain relief, as was brought up. Maybe that natural opiate is good enough for you right?
Well, how about if you are super allergic to it? Not so much then eh? A man made version, targeting similar effects, is going to be the best bet for you. Even if it's not quite as effective, the fact that it's not going to kill you is certainly going to be a bonus.
All I'm saying is to try things for yourself. Lots of disinformation out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by EclecticGroove
It still has to do with synthetic VS natural and which is safer. Since everybody here is convinced synthetic is safer then natural. And comparing organic eating vs non-organic is one of the easiest way I can think of that everyone can test the effectiveness of synthetic vs natural in both taste and how healthy they feel. Because otherwise we aren't going to get anywhere. So yeah, try eating mostly organic for at least a week and then switch back. What do you have to lose?Quote:
Originally Posted by EclecticGroove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
No one, not a single person in this thread has made that argument EXCEPT for you.
Why?
Because you refuse to change your viewpoint and strawman people to continue your argument.
What people have argued is that MEDICINE is safter than untested, unproven bullshit.
That medicine can be 100% "organic", it can be synthetic, and on top of that it can vary depending on the exact medicine, person, and situation in question.
Refining medication (asparin for instance) to make it more effective, and remove contaminants is not being "synthetic". Do you consider filtered water to be synthetic? Because if you think all, or most medicine is synthetic, then you're essentially arguing for just that.
Go ahead then, take a nice big drink from a "natural" water source and let me know how that turns out.
And taste has nothing to do with a medications effectiveness. You take medication to fix/help something, not to enjoy the "meal".
Same thing with how you feel. There are lots of idiots out there who feel they are "better" than other people because of what they choose to eat or not eat. There have been many cases where people have been told what they are served is something high quality, only to have it be some of the cheapest and worst crap available.... and guess what? They felt AWESOME, because you can trick how a person feels about something very easily.
That applies to many things, even medications. If you are convinced it won't work, that will reduce it's effectiveness. If you're convinced it is working, it will aid its effectiveness, or even create positive results when the medication itself is actually doing nothing.
In your case, you believe your own bullshit, and therefore you see amazing benefits, only some of which are actually real. Cutting out soda was absolutely a real benefit, which multiple studies will back up. And chances are you are eating healthier in general now, but that's an assumption on my part. But that has little to do with your actual eating "organic" as you are simply eating healthier.
IE: The fact that you switched to "certified organic" foods means very little. But the fact that you cut out processed sugar bombs (soda) and who knows what else along with it means a hell of a lot.
But once again. This has nothing to do with "natural medicine". So I'll stop responding to your off topic ramblings.