Sonic 3 Complete VS Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and everything in-between. My thoughts on it.

Played through all of the Sonic games again this week, starting with 1, then 2, and now I just finished playing through the ROM Hack Sonic 3 Complete, which basically synthesizes Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles into one complete game with a few extra cutscenes, and a bunch of customizable options to keep the music from Sonic 3 in Sonic 3&K as well as the possibility to put Flying Battery Zone in its original place between Carnival Night Zone and Ice Cap Zone. I just finished playing through the game with Sonic and got all of the Chaos Emeralds but not all of the Super Emeralds, and here are my thoughts.

Sonic 3 is a vastly more developed, better game that Sonic and Knuckles in my opinion, and Flying Battery Zone being finished during the production of Sonic 3 seems even more apparent as being a great Sonic 3 level. I'm convinced that Sonic and Knuckles levels just aren't up to snuff, and the themes and graphics of the game just seem quite different and dark, reminiscent of Japanese Sci-Fi movies and Genesis games of the time, but not so much feeling like prior Sonic games. Very dark and unpleasant.

I really love Sonic 3 as a game as a whole, as I feel its varied but the levels are fun, fast, and challenging. Angel Island Zone, Hydrocity Zone (Perhaps the only fun underwater level in the entire series), Marble Garden Zone, Ice Cap Zone, Launch Base Zone all have great speed and are really unique and don't feel like rehashes of levels from previous Sonic games. Carnival Night Zone is definitely the worst level in Sonic 3, but it could be worse. Those candy-stripe loops are cool.

Sonic and Knuckles levels on the other hand are freaking frustrating. Mushroom Hill Zone is decent. Sandopolis Zone is absolutely frustrating and puzzle like. Reminds me a lot of something that would be in Castle of Illusion. Lava Reef Zone Act 1 is great, Act 2 is meh. Hidden Palace Zone is boring. Death Egg Zone tried my patience unbelievably, and I felt like I was playing Zero Wing or Thunder Force IV with the music the entire time. Miniboss is unbelievably hard, while the 2nd Boss is unbelievably easy. Sky Sanctuary Zone has amazing music, but looks really ugly for a Sonic game. It makes you wonder if the level was really finished. I think Sky Sanctuary Zone looks like something out of a Sonic ROM Hack. The Doomsday Zone is probably the best epic Final Final boss in all of the series though, and it makes getting the chaos emeralds worthwhile.

Music in Sonic 3 without a doubt is better than S&K. The MJ sampled vocal tunes are like no other Genesis music, and really make the game. Even the other songs in the game are quite pleasant. The credits music is undoubtedly epic as well. The miniboss tune makes the game by itself. Sonic and Knuckles I think has a really cool opening theme and Invincibility theme. I dig Flying Battery and Lava Reef music. Sky Sanctuary Music is absolutely epic. The rest of the game's music is not too memorable though.

I think getting the Super Emeralds would have felt more important/relevant to the story if the Special Stages in Sonic and Knuckles were changed up. Otherwise it feels like drudgery getting 14 emeralds for basically no difference in ending to the game.

The story makes more sense in Sonic 3 Complete with the cutscene of the Death Egg falling to earth, but you do still wonder how Knuckles was tricked the entire time into thinking Sonic stole the Master Emerald when Dr. Robotnik had it the entire time to power the Death Egg and the DeathRobo, especially after the thing falls from the sky.

I think Sonic 3 and Knuckles still deserves to be played as a whole and is still amazing, but man, I do feel like the game would have flowed a lot better if they were allowed to present Sonic 3 as all one long game. Put Flying Battery Zone where it originally was, cut out Sandopolis Zone and maybe even Hidden Palace Zone.

What are your guys thoughts on Sonic 3 and Knuckles?

My thoughts haven't changed since I was 6, and that's that Sonic 3 & Knuckles is one of the most perfect games I've ever played.

I've said it somewhere else, but Sonic 1 was the classic, 2 was the favorite, CD was the unappreciated, and 3K was the best.

But what's interesting to me is when people compare 3 to Knuckles; I never understood that - two halves of one complete game, I couldn't find the reason to play them separately once I had the game in its masterful entirety.

I was happy with how Sonic 3 and Knuckles were released separate. And had a great time playing them separate then together back in the day. Played this game a lot back in the day (then a lot more on Sonic Jam compilation). In my recent playthrough of all the Sonic games, they still hold up really well to me.

As to which of the two I preferred more? As a kid I liked 3 better, then later though Knuckles was better, and with the recent playthrough... I'm not sure anymore. I loved it all. And thought the series ended on one of the most epic finale ever with that last Death Egg stage and it's final bosses and music, then ending.


My fave stages are Carninval Night, Ice Cap, Mushroom, Sandopolis Act 1 and Lava Reef. Liked Marble Garden a lot more as a kid, but not so much anymore.

My fave tunes are Lava Reef, Ice Cap, then Final Boss music on that platform before the all Chaos Emerald flight chase.

@Baloo: Did this ROM hack include a full battle of Sonic 3's final boss? It's the main thing that separates playing them separately from playing with the lock-on tech.

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Originally Posted by Lync

My thoughts haven't changed since I was 6, and that's that Sonic 3 & Knuckles is one of the most perfect games I've ever played.

I've said it somewhere else, but Sonic 1 was the classic, 2 was the favorite, CD was the unappreciated, and 3K was the best.

But what's interesting to me is when people compare 3 to Knuckles; I never understood that - two halves of one complete game, I couldn't find the reason to play them separately once I had the game in its masterful entirety.

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agree with you entirely there

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Originally Posted by QuickSciFi

@Baloo: Did this ROM hack include a full battle of Sonic 3's final boss? It's the main thing that separates playing them separately from playing with the lock-on tech.

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It's a toggleable option, yes, along with a million other things. It's a truly beastly hack and the definitive way to play the game (or games, if you wish, as you also have the option to play each half separately).

http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_3_Complete

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Originally Posted by Assman

It's a toggleable option, yes, along with a million other things. It's a truly beastly hack and the definitive way to play the game (or games, if you wish, as you also have the option to play each half separately).

http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_3_Complete

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'Don't know if I'd call it "the definitive" way of playing the games; but I'm just one purist speaking for myself. However, this is the kind of good stuff I wouldn't mind trying out on the go via some Android tablet or phone with a good controller.

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Originally Posted by QuickSciFi

@Baloo: Did this ROM hack include a full battle of Sonic 3's final boss? It's the main thing that separates playing them separately from playing with the lock-on tech.

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Yes, you get to face Big Arm as well at the end of Sonic 3. I think it makes the game better for sure, Big Arm as a final boss is not all that difficult but it is nice to get a solid act 2 Boss for Launch Base Zone too. It works well.

Sonic 3 had the weaker levels imo. Marble Garden & Carnival Night just bore me. The music is top notch though, and def is essential to play on it's own just for that reason.

Sonic & Knuckles has the better levels, but just feels incomplete without Sonic 3.

Sonic 3 & Knuckles is just perfection, as Lync said. The quintessential Sonic game. Only thing that subtracts from it is the Sonic 3 music, esp the boss themes and Knuckles', get replaced with their S&K counterparts.

I think they are both incredible albeit a little brief on they're own. Sonic and Knuckles to me is definitely the better half of the game though. The levels are even bigger and slightly more challenging. Combined it's my second favorite game ever to Streets of Rage 2. I will note if Sega had released the game on one cartridge it would probably be tied at #1 with Streets of Rage 2. Sonic 3 complete is awesome just slight improvements and options to Sonic 3 and Knuckles and the definitive way to play the game today.

great writeup - as a kid, i read all the gaming mags i could, but still took 3 as a complete game in itself, so when Knuckles showed up, it was just amazing: more levels, plus more ways to play my old games. i didn't feel gypped even for a moment.

swear to god though, i have "get all the #$%^ing chaos emeralds in sonic 2" on my new year's resolution list this year, it's the only one i've never done it in! and after all these years, i realize that playing it one player means sadly ditching tails, he just loses all our rings too much in those damn halfpipes.

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Originally Posted by Lync

My thoughts haven't changed since I was 6, and that's that Sonic 3 & Knuckles is one of the most perfect games I've ever played.

I've said it somewhere else, but Sonic 1 was the classic, 2 was the favorite, CD was the unappreciated, and 3K was the best.

But what's interesting to me is when people compare 3 to Knuckles; I never understood that - two halves of one complete game, I couldn't find the reason to play them separately once I had the game in its masterful entirety.

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agreed with all this - yeah, once i got the lock-on i never played 3 by itself again

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Originally Posted by Assman

It's a toggleable option, yes, along with a million other things. It's a truly beastly hack and the definitive way to play the game (or games, if you wish, as you also have the option to play each half separately).

http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_3_Complete

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damn, okay definitely playing it that way next time then!

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Originally Posted by Lync

I've said it somewhere else, but Sonic 1 was the classic, 2 was the favorite, CD was the unappreciated, and 3K was the best.

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Works for me. 2 might be tighter(coding/level design), but 3&K has substance.

It's like the same reason why a hardcore wrestling/wrestling video game fan would be willing to import the Fire Pro Wrestling series. Sure, you don't get the fun match types, or as many of the wrestlers you recognize, but it's got more than enough substance to keep one coming back to it.

It's also why I like the character hacks(though they're usually only Sonic 1). Usually new characters add so much to it, just by playing a little differently, and Tails having his own skill set, as well as Knuckles, does that for S3&K.

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Originally Posted by midnightrider

or as many of the wrestlers you recognize

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Luckily the real hardcore wrestling fan who plays FirePro knows they can just download the mega save and get 9000 wrestlers all sorted by federation (and sometimes even era)

NWO Macho Man & 80s Hogan & Zandig Vs EVERY DAMN TIGER MASK EVER!

Actually, I guess I didn't think that line through. A real hardcore fan would watch more than the WWE and probably would know all the wrestlers in the game.

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Originally Posted by Baloo

Played through all of the Sonic games again this week, starting with 1, then 2, and now I just finished playing through the ROM Hack Sonic 3 Complete, which basically synthesizes Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles into one complete game with a few extra cutscenes, and a bunch of customizable options to keep the music from Sonic 3 in Sonic 3&K as well as the possibility to put Flying Battery Zone in its original place between Carnival Night Zone and Ice Cap Zone. I just finished playing through the game with Sonic and got all of the Chaos Emeralds but not all of the Super Emeralds, and here are my thoughts.

Sonic 3 is a vastly more developed, better game that Sonic and Knuckles in my opinion, and Flying Battery Zone being finished during the production of Sonic 3 seems even more apparent as being a great Sonic 3 level. I'm convinced that Sonic and Knuckles levels just aren't up to snuff, and the themes and graphics of the game just seem quite different and dark, reminiscent of Japanese Sci-Fi movies and Genesis games of the time, but not so much feeling like prior Sonic games. Very dark and unpleasant.

I really love Sonic 3 as a game as a whole, as I feel its varied but the levels are fun, fast, and challenging. Angel Island Zone, Hydrocity Zone (Perhaps the only fun underwater level in the entire series), Marble Garden Zone, Ice Cap Zone, Launch Base Zone all have great speed and are really unique and don't feel like rehashes of levels from previous Sonic games. Carnival Night Zone is definitely the worst level in Sonic 3, but it could be worse. Those candy-stripe loops are cool.

Sonic and Knuckles levels on the other hand are freaking frustrating. Mushroom Hill Zone is decent. Sandopolis Zone is absolutely frustrating and puzzle like. Reminds me a lot of something that would be in Castle of Illusion. Lava Reef Zone Act 1 is great, Act 2 is meh. Hidden Palace Zone is boring. Death Egg Zone tried my patience unbelievably, and I felt like I was playing Zero Wing or Thunder Force IV with the music the entire time. Miniboss is unbelievably hard, while the 2nd Boss is unbelievably easy. Sky Sanctuary Zone has amazing music, but looks really ugly for a Sonic game. It makes you wonder if the level was really finished. I think Sky Sanctuary Zone looks like something out of a Sonic ROM Hack. The Doomsday Zone is probably the best epic Final Final boss in all of the series though, and it makes getting the chaos emeralds worthwhile.

Music in Sonic 3 without a doubt is better than S&K. The MJ sampled vocal tunes are like no other Genesis music, and really make the game. Even the other songs in the game are quite pleasant. The credits music is undoubtedly epic as well. The miniboss tune makes the game by itself. Sonic and Knuckles I think has a really cool opening theme and Invincibility theme. I dig Flying Battery and Lava Reef music. Sky Sanctuary Music is absolutely epic. The rest of the game's music is not too memorable though.

I think getting the Super Emeralds would have felt more important/relevant to the story if the Special Stages in Sonic and Knuckles were changed up. Otherwise it feels like drudgery getting 14 emeralds for basically no difference in ending to the game.

The story makes more sense in Sonic 3 Complete with the cutscene of the Death Egg falling to earth, but you do still wonder how Knuckles was tricked the entire time into thinking Sonic stole the Master Emerald when Dr. Robotnik had it the entire time to power the Death Egg and the DeathRobo, especially after the thing falls from the sky.

I think Sonic 3 and Knuckles still deserves to be played as a whole and is still amazing, but man, I do feel like the game would have flowed a lot better if they were allowed to present Sonic 3 as all one long game. Put Flying Battery Zone where it originally was, cut out Sandopolis Zone and maybe even Hidden Palace Zone.

What are your guys thoughts on Sonic 3 and Knuckles?

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I really couldn't agree more and I miss the days you're more active as regular member of the forum due to posts like this.

S&K feels uninspired and convoluted when compared to Sonic 3.
A lot of the level design became a mess, palettes are all over the place, enemy placement is way worse, etc. Sonic 3 Complete is really the ultimate Sonic experience IMO, but a lot of it for me is thanks to the options that allow you to apply S3's style into the rest of the game.

Angel Island, Hydrocity and Ice Cap are the zones I like most. They really deliver an awesome atmosphere for the environment they purpose to create.
Then you get Mushroom Hill and it's depressingly generic, recycled, flat and ugly. Really sad.

I always saw S&K as the more-refined, cleaner game of the two. There are so many areas, especially in later levels, where I feel like I'm actually playing a Neo Geo AES game.

[Edit] Lol. Just saw what I did there. I'll move on to distinguish S&K from SNK. Hahahah.

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Originally Posted by knicksfan89

agree with you entirely there

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Originally Posted by The Jackal

Sonic 3 & Knuckles is just perfection, as Lync said. The quintessential Sonic game. Only thing that subtracts from it is the Sonic 3 music, esp the boss themes and Knuckles', get replaced with their S&K counterparts.

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Originally Posted by IrishNinja

agreed with all this - yeah, once i got the lock-on i never played 3 by itself again damn, okay definitely playing it that way next time then!

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Originally Posted by midnightrider

Works for me. 2 might be tighter(coding/level design), but 3&K has substance.

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Haha, well then - great minds do think alike then! :)

I did forget to mention one 'Sonic' game in my summary though; all I will say is that I consider it to be 'The Polarizing' of the group... can you guess it?

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Originally Posted by Barone

I really couldn't agree more and I miss the days you're more active as regular member of the forum due to posts like this.

S&K feels uninspired and convoluted when compared to Sonic 3.
A lot of the level design became a mess, palettes are all over the place, enemy placement is way worse, etc. Sonic 3 Complete is really the ultimate Sonic experience IMO, but a lot of it for me is thanks to the options that allow you to apply S3's style into the rest of the game.

Angel Island, Hydrocity and Ice Cap are the zones I like most. They really deliver an awesome atmosphere for the environment they purpose to create.
Then you get Mushroom Hill and it's depressingly generic, recycled, flat and ugly. Really sad.

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Hmm... I'll nibble a bit. I never thought there was much continuity between the levels besides the transition scenes (genius!) so I always figured most of the stages were interchangeable up until Lava Reef, to Hidden Palace, and then Sky Sanctuary.

Of all the levels I really like Mushroom Hill Zone, especially as you progress the level scenery changes in those 'autumn' colors. Makes me feel cozy... but stacking them all up, honestly S3 and S&K are dead even to me with the exception of Carnival Night Zone; that was my least favorite stage, and even then I think it's a good level. And I nailed this on my first try age six:




http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx...zabzo1_400.gif

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Originally Posted by IrishNinja

great writeup - as a kid, i read all the gaming mags i could, but still took 3 as a complete game in itself, so when Knuckles showed up, it was just amazing: more levels, plus more ways to play my old games. i didn't feel gypped even for a moment.

swear to god though, i have "get all the #$%^ing chaos emeralds in sonic 2" on my new year's resolution list this year, it's the only one i've never done it in! and after all these years, i realize that playing it one player means sadly ditching tails, he just loses all our rings too much in those damn halfpipes.

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I must say I definitely look forward to another playthrough of Sonic 3 complete with the Knuckles paths and cutscenes.

I also must say that I really like Sonic 3's special stages way more than Sonic 2's. Sonic 2's are hard and arbitrary, it took me a million tries to get all of the Chaos Emeralds in 2 on Android even with the easier view and without Tails to mess me up. Didn't get them all in one playthrough. Sonic 3 on the other hand I got 7 emeralds in 7 tries and was done by Carnival Night Zone. WAY easier to get the Blue Sphere Emeralds. The Super Emerald patterns are much harder to get in one playthrough. I have yet to get all 7 Emeralds in Sonic 2 in one playthrough. Sonic 1 is a little arbitrary but not too bad in one playthrough.

As a kid and even today, I tend to play Sonic 3 by itself. S&K's levels just aren't very fun aside from Flying Battery. To this day, I never bother to play through Sandopolis Act 2. It drags like hell and is no fun. I turn the game off at that point. I'm glad I'm not alone in my thinking.

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Originally Posted by Baloo

I must say I definitely look forward to another playthrough of Sonic 3 complete with the Knuckles paths and cutscenes.

I also must say that I really like Sonic 3's special stages way more than Sonic 2's. Sonic 2's are hard and arbitrary, it took me a million tries to get all of the Chaos Emeralds in 2 on Android even with the easier view and without Tails to mess me up. Didn't get them all in one playthrough. Sonic 3 on the other hand I got 7 emeralds in 7 tries and was done by Carnival Night Zone. WAY easier to get the Blue Sphere Emeralds. The Super Emerald patterns are much harder to get in one playthrough. I have yet to get all 7 Emeralds in Sonic 2 in one playthrough. Sonic 1 is a little arbitrary but not too bad in one playthrough.

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ah, what was the "easier view" on the android version like? and glad i'm not the only one who found 3's bonus stages far more enjoyable - i'd sometimes see how far i'd get in the endless ones hidden in S&K + 1! but yeah, i'd always wondered why so few people ever said they had a difficult time getting them all in 2, unless you've a solid 2nd player with you.

though part of me wants to go back one day & play that hack of Knuckles Chaotix i read about that actually populated the levels, cause the special stages they did there clearly built on part 2's but at a glance seemed a little neater.

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Originally Posted by IrishNinja

ah, what was the "easier view" on the android version like? and glad i'm not the only one who found 3's bonus stages far more enjoyable - i'd sometimes see how far i'd get in the endless ones hidden in S&K + 1! but yeah, i'd always wondered why so few people ever said they had a difficult time getting them all in 2, unless you've a solid 2nd player with you.

though part of me wants to go back one day & play that hack of Knuckles Chaotix i read about that actually populated the levels, cause the special stages they did there clearly built on part 2's but at a glance seemed a little neater.

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The Android version simply has real-time rendered 3D special stages that make them look a little bit nicer.

Do you have a link to that hack? Knuckles Chaotix used to be one of my favorite games but I haven't played it in a while due to the lack of challenge in it.

I always thought neither game made sense without the other. When you realize they're one game the difficulty curve works out pretty well. To me, both games feel like they're missing something when they're separated but there's no way I can look past a bias I've had since I was a kid. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is one of my favorite games of all time and I've played it to the point where it's difficult for me to step back and analyze. It's all so ingrained into me that I can't really look at the levels critically since I breeze through them so effortlessly and have such fond memories of the entire package.

So maybe my opinion would be different if I had a fresher set of eyes but I'm too far gone to really judge Sonic 3 and S&K against each other as separate experiences.

I will however say each game has a single Zone I don't care for. Carnival Night in 3 (no I didn't get stuck on the barrel as a kid and I didn't even know this was a problem for people until I was an adult) and Sandopolis in S&K (though I give them kudos for trying something different unique with it).

so this thread got me playing Sonic 3 Complete tonight! what a cool game, i'm only in hydrocity cause i wanted to get as many chaos emeralds as i can

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Originally Posted by Baloo

Do you have a link to that hack? Knuckles Chaotix used to be one of my favorite games but I haven't played it in a while due to the lack of challenge in it.

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...shit, did i dream this one up? i'm checking romhacking and only seeing the one that brings sonic. checked my mega ED and there's a few on there but not that one either...balls! i'll keep at it, if it doesnt exist someone really should go nuts with a debugger or something.

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Originally Posted by Lync

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx...zabzo1_400.gif

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This carnival night part is an perfect example of bad game design. When you first play, probably you will try jumping just because Tails keep jumping. It's nothing intuitive!

Anyway, Sonic 3 and Knuckles RULES!!

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Originally Posted by LinkueiBR

This carnival night part is an perfect example of bad game design. When you first play, probably you will try jumping just because Tails keep jumping. It's nothing intuitive!

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That barrel thing is a prime example of how the mind deals with problem solving, some minds just realize quicker that its something to be figured out.

I never understood why people had a problem with that barrel, after ten or so jumps you gotta realize that jumping just doesn't work.
I mean I tried jumping, blinked my eyes when that didn't work.. jumped again.. tilted my head, and started trying out stuff like spinning and pushing up an.. there we go.

It's bad game design for sure, but it's not the huge roadblock that apparently nobody could figure out.

holy hell, you can customize sonic 3 complete from the site, too?! man, what a fantastic effort right there, that's awesome.

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Originally Posted by NeoVamp

It's bad game design for sure, but it's not the huge roadblock that apparently nobody could figure out.

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It took me over a decade to figure it out. And that's because I only had to Google it. I was assuming I was jumping wrong.

There was simply no reasonable indication to tell you that you should press Up and Down. If jumping appeared to do something, then you must be jumping wrong. Clearly.

They'dve done a lot if they'd just made it so that the barrel didn't move at all when jumped on. Or even better, the barrel didn't exist at all.

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Originally Posted by Flygon

It took me over a decade to figure it out.

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Took me like 5 minutes, It's not rocket science.

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Originally Posted by NeoVamp

Took me like 5 minutes

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To me too back in the day, but i just don't get why tails keep jumping... It's probably intentional. Programmers trolling players LOL

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Originally Posted by LinkueiBR

i just don't get why tails keep jumping...

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Probably has something to do with the barrel physics, it's in up and down motion so the CPU probably gets confused and thinks the player is going up and down.

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Originally Posted by Lync

Of all the levels I really like Mushroom Hill Zone, especially as you progress the level scenery changes in those 'autumn' colors. Makes me feel cozy... but stacking them all up, honestly S3 and S&K are dead even to me with the exception of Carnival Night Zone; that was my least favorite stage, and even then I think it's a good level. And I nailed this on my first try age six:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx...zabzo1_400.gif

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Yeah, I was one of the few or many that got stumped for some time the first time I got here. But I'm pretty sure I figured it out on my own soon after. Still, sure was frustrating the first time I got stuck there. I actually even thought maybe my copy of the game was glitched.

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Originally Posted by Obviously

I always thought neither game made sense without the other. When you realize they're one game the difficulty curve works out pretty well. To me, both games feel like they're missing something when they're separated but there's no way I can look past a bias I've had since I was a kid. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is one of my favorite games of all time and I've played it to the point where it's difficult for me to step back and analyze. It's all so ingrained into me that I can't really look at the levels critically since I breeze through them so effortlessly and have such fond memories of the entire package.

So maybe my opinion would be different if I had a fresher set of eyes but I'm too far gone to really judge Sonic 3 and S&K against each other as separate experiences.

I will however say each game has a single Zone I don't care for. Carnival Night in 3 (no I didn't get stuck on the barrel as a kid and I didn't even know this was a problem for people until I was an adult) and Sandopolis in S&K (though I give them kudos for trying something different unique with it).

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Keep in mind Launch Base zone was toned down difficulty wise by quite a bit so the difficulty transition between the two games were smoother. This video here does a nice side by side comparison on how that was achieved (@4:15);

https://youtu.be/W1lvY4qZ6KY

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Originally Posted by Baloo

Sonic and Knuckles levels on the other hand are freaking frustrating. Mushroom Hill Zone is decent. Sandopolis Zone is absolutely frustrating and puzzle like. Reminds me a lot of something that would be in Castle of Illusion. Lava Reef Zone Act 1 is great, Act 2 is meh. Hidden Palace Zone is boring. Death Egg Zone tried my patience unbelievably, and I felt like I was playing Zero Wing or Thunder Force IV with the music the entire time. Miniboss is unbelievably hard, while the 2nd Boss is unbelievably easy. Sky Sanctuary Zone has amazing music, but looks really ugly for a Sonic game. It makes you wonder if the level was really finished. I think Sky Sanctuary Zone looks like something out of a Sonic ROM Hack. The Doomsday Zone is probably the best epic Final Final boss in all of the series though, and it makes getting the chaos emeralds worthwhile.

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Wow. I could agree Sandopolis is boring and long, but:

-Mushroom Hill: not a great first zone (it wasn't meant to be), but music is very cool (I love the drums breaks every now and then), and the season change was a nice touch.

-Flying battery: probably the best level.

-Lava Reef: finally a proper lava zone in a Sonic game! Music in act 1 is awesome, but when the lava cools down after the mini boss fight and the act 2 music begins, that's one of my fondest Sonic memories.

-Hidden palace: just a transition stage, but we fight Knuckles with the prophecy artwork behind!

-Sky sanctuary: one of the best tunes, it really fits the visuals, sounds like you are ascending a tower in the sky. Fighting Mecha Sonic's homage to old boss was nice. And what about the cutscene to Death Egg?

-Death Egg: to me, the best final zone ever in a Sonic game. Music is very cool, gimmicks everywhere (that gravity flip), and the boss chain is epic: boss, epic boss (two transformations), chase Robotnik, then Doomsday zone.

-Doomsday zone: the best final boss in a Sonic game.

Of course I understand the op's opinion but, oh my, when I read the zones impressions I felt the need to write this post xD

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Originally Posted by molul

Wow. I could agree Sandopolis is boring and long, but:

-Mushroom Hill: not a great first zone (it wasn't meant to be), but music is very cool (I love the drums breaks every now and then), and the season change was a nice touch.

-Flying battery: probably the best level.

-Lava Reef: finally a proper lava zone in a Sonic game! Music in act 1 is awesome, but when the lava cools down after the mini boss fight and the act 2 music begins, that's one of my fondest Sonic memories.

-Hidden palace: just a transition stage, but we fight Knuckles with the prophecy artwork behind!

-Sky sanctuary: one of the best tunes, it really fits the visuals, sounds like you are ascending a tower in the sky. Fighting Mecha Sonic's homage to old boss was nice. And what about the cutscene to Death Egg?

-Death Egg: to me, the best final zone ever in a Sonic game. Music is very cool, gimmicks everywhere (that gravity flip), and the boss chain is epic: boss, epic boss (two transformations), chase Robotnik, then Doomsday zone.

-Doomsday zone: the best final boss in a Sonic game.

Of course I understand the op's opinion but, oh my, when I read the zones impressions I felt the need to write this post xD

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Just randomly saw this when going back over some old posts...but our opinions really aren't that far off. I would say looking back that my opinions of S&K are a little harsh...my real main problems with the game are just the drudgery of MORE blue sphere zones to get the Super Emeralds, the awfulness that is Sandopolis Zone Act 2, and I wasn't a huge fan of Death Egg. But as a combined game...Sonic 3 & Knuckles is still by far one of my all-time favorite games. There's just more polish overall on it than any other game in the series, save Sonic Mania. But Sonic Mania unfortunately was harangued by the fact that it was mostly recycled zones. Now if that game had 3/4s new zones in the vein of Studiopolis and Mirage Saloon, hands-down it would be the best Sonic game. But as it stands, Sonic 3 Complete is the best.

Baloo, what are the Japanese sci-fi movies you associate with S&K's look?

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Originally Posted by Genesis Knight

Baloo, what are the Japanese sci-fi movies you associate with S&K's look?

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Don't know about movies, but there was a comparison a while back showing a ton of similarities between S3&K and Laputa: Castle in the Sky.

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Originally Posted by Genesis Knight

Baloo, what are the Japanese sci-fi movies you associate with S&K's look?

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The vibe of Death Egg Zone reminds me a ton of the anime movie Macross: Do You Remember Love? Of course the Death Egg itself is lifted from Star Wars. And its interesting the comparisons of Laputa: Castle in the Sky to Sky Sanctuary Zone, as that is my favorite Miyazaki movie!

Just bumping this thread becahse I bought a Genesis Model 1 and Sonic 3 Complete as a cart repro Genesis and am playing through it again during COVID-19 quarantine. The Genesis Classic Mini had input lag so bad that it wasnt fun to play on there, plus emulation doesn't quite have the same feel.

My points mainly still stand about Sonic 3 Complete, but actually this time around I have come to appreciate Mushroom Hill Zone as a great zone, and I enjoy the music. Nothing beats Sonic 3 Complete with the proper music cues and Flying Battery Zone in its original place. I can play this game over and over again and kudos to whoever did this hack.

Also, does anyone else feel that playing as Super Sonic sucks the fun out of the game? I got all of the emeralds by Carnival Night Act 2 and blew threw it and the Zone 2 boss. Then turned the game off to finish later. I dont think it is fun at all to play as Super Sonic really. Sucks the enjoyment and challenge out of the game.

But Sonic 3 Complete has its perch at the top of best Genesis games for me. The ultimate rom hack.

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Originally Posted by Baloo

Also, does anyone else feel that playing as Super Sonic sucks the fun out of the game? I got all of the emeralds by Carnival Night Act 2 and blew threw it and the Zone 2 boss. Then turned the game off to finish later. I dont think it is fun at all to play as Super Sonic really. Sucks the enjoyment and challenge out of the game.

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I agree and I disagree. I've always been a collectard when it comes to the emeralds, so for years I made it my goal to snatch all chaos emeralds by Hydrocity and all super emeralds by Mushroom Hill before proceeding to wreak all havoc as Super/Hyper Sonic at any given opportunity with few exceptions (those exceptions being Hydrocity and Ice Cap as I refused to miss out on those groin grabbingly transcendent tunes).

In recent years, however, I largely avoid transforming unless I'm feeling particularly vulnerable in a dodgy area with hundreds of rings and no shield. I do find it to affect the enjoyment to some extent and certainly the challenge, but I still often find it to be an absolute blast. I'm ambivalent. Groin grabbingly ambivalent.

How are you able to get all super emeralds by Mushroom Hill Zone? I thought you could only get one per entry to the Master Emerald room?

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Originally Posted by Baloo

But Sonic 3 Complete has its perch at the top of best Genesis games for me. The ultimate rom hack.

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The only thing I wish would be added to it is a complete rewrite of the original games' audio system.
'Cause the awful PCM playback quality really hurts the soundtrack or, at least, keeps it from unleashing its full potential.

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Originally Posted by Assman

(those exceptions being Hydrocity and Ice Cap as I refused to miss out on those groin grabbingly transcendent tunes).

In recent years, however, I largely avoid transforming unless I'm feeling particularly vulnerable in a dodgy area with hundreds of rings and no shield. I do find it to affect the enjoyment to some extent and certainly the challenge, but I still often find it to be an absolute blast. I'm ambivalent. Groin grabbingly ambivalent.

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I totally agree with this.