Pier Solar: Official Thread

Give us a reasonable "Release Date"
After all, it's "basically done. Done. Finished."

Regarding all the rhetoric being thrown around about unknown variables here. It shouldn't be met with a condescending response aimed at the criticism, as if being founded on ignorance is a fault in itself.
Really, WM itself has been sourcing this discussion with tiny bits of conflicting information whenever it does decide to respond to questions.

The fact that you consider this thread 'Trolling' is hilarious. :ok:

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Originally Posted by Wolfrider

This isn't a Duke Nukem

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from what I've seen it's more like Team Fortress 2. Delayed but showing itself to be worth the wait overall.

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Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster

The fact that you consider this thread 'Trolling' is hilarious. :ok:

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I think the only trolling going on here is calling this thread a troll thread. The rest of the thread is just (mostly) paying customers needing things addressed. But whatever, if they want to call customers with honest questions/complaints "trolls" then that really says something about them.

At least things are getting answered here. On their own forums if someone asks a question and it gets half-answered and then locked only to slip away into obscurity. At least here at sega-16 in this thread we're allowed to elaborate on our responses and try to get more clarity on something once it's been answered.

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Originally Posted by Tears of Ash

I think the only trolling going on here is calling this thread a troll thread. The rest of the thread is just (mostly) paying customers needing things addressed. But whatever, if they want to call customers with honest questions/complaints "trolls" then that really says something about them.

At least things are getting answered here. On their own forums if someone asks a question and it gets half-answered and then locked only to slip away into obscurity. At least here at sega-16 in this thread we're allowed to elaborate on our responses and try to get more clarity on something once it's been answered.

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Yes, It does say lots about a developer who actively participates in feedback, only to fill the response with sarcasm & condescension. I can only see a few unfounded bashing-posts in this thread, and none in the recent discussion.

Writing off expressions of legitimate speculation based on history, as the standard: 'Trolls, pissing in the wind'; isn't exactly helpful. Tagging that mentality onto answers which are too few to begin with just to weigh them down with some sense of 'developmental burden', is on the borderline of "insulting"

Why is there still no release date?

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Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster

Yes, It does say lots about a developer who actively participates in feedback, only to fill the response with sarcasm & condescension. I can only see a few unfounded bashing-posts in this thread, and none in the recent discussion.

Writing off expressions of legitimate speculation based on history, as the standard: 'Trolls, pissing in the wind'; isn't exactly helpful. Tagging that mentality onto answers which are too few to begin with just to weigh them down with some sense of 'developmental burden', is on the borderline of "insulting"

Why is there still no release date?

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Because programs are done when they are done. "Professionals" often ship them out prematurely with really nasty bugs because the boss and beancounters say the ship date is XXXX, and the program isn't anywhere near done by that date. There's no way to do programming to a schedule - it simply doesn't work that way. That's why most non-pro projects don't set a schedule. The problem here is that because WM took pre-orders, people are treating them as a commercial team and expecting a set schedule. They WANT to avoid that so you get a complete and bug-free (or nearly so) product. If you keep pushing too hard, they might just give you what you want - a buggy unfinished product. So be patient. It's been a couple years - you can wait another if need be.

And by the way, devs are often "short" or condescending. It's why companies hire people to interact with the customers instead of the devs. I'm that way myself sometimes. It's not their job to kiss ass and call it candy - that's for the help desk drones. ;)

So if a dev deigns to leave feedback in a thread, don't count on it to be all sweetness and light. It's more often going to be sarcastic and insulting, especially when the thread gets insulting, as this one has done in places.

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

Because programs are done when they are done. "Professionals" often ship them out prematurely with really nasty bugs because the boss and beancounters say the ship date is XXXX, and the program isn't anywhere near done by that date. There's no way to do programming to a schedule - it simply doesn't work that way. That's why most non-pro projects don't set a schedule. The problem here is that because WM took pre-orders, people are treating them as a commercial team and expecting a set schedule. They WANT to avoid that so you get a complete and bug-free (or nearly so) product. If you keep pushing too hard, they might just give you what you want - a buggy unfinished product. So be patient. It's been a couple years - you can wait another if need be.

And by the way, devs are often "short" or condescending. It's why companies hire people to interact with the customers instead of the devs. I'm that way myself sometimes. It's not their job to kiss ass and call it candy - that's for the help desk drones. ;)

So if a dev deigns to leave feedback in a thread, don't count on it to be all sweetness and light. It's more often going to be sarcastic and insulting, especially when the thread gets insulting, as this one has done in places.

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I'm very much aware of the development process & lack of candy coating on canned responses normally put forward by coders. Your response doesn't answer anything on behalf of the issue in this circumstance with how it relates to what I've repeatedly said.

Setting a reasonable deadline/release date, would effectively deflate the perceived speculative trolling. To not set one, only serves to let it continue based on past experience (goal failure & silence in this case.)

Busting the deadline if necessary is another issue, but not one that should be avoided by default.

I'm simply saying to the developers:
'Why not give it a deadline? You've essentially killed the momentum behind your project with each step forward taken, and you are still selling out of stock. It can't get any worse, and it would certainly appease those who don't have blind faith in your efforts.'

It's not complicated logic. Being silent on an issue and occasionally saying "Soon! ZOMG it's awesome!" is obviously not appeasing everybody, wouldn't throwing a bone to the rest of the hounds work better than 'bitching about them being trolls'? Isn't that a no-brainer?

A reasonable deadline isn't that far fetched. If any game breaking bugs arise, they need only push it. Not completely get rid of it. After all, it's being finalized & balanced.

As of right now it seems WM is crutching itself on 'Non-Professionalism' & needlessly striving to prove it with occasional inert information sessions and answers to legitimate questions that compare up to a foundation of contradiction & confusion.

I've already stated many posts back, I don't care about this project anymore & view WM as a bad joke. I am willing to be proven wrong in that respect, but can't help but laugh when simple solutions, & basic expectations are ignored or admittedly feared.

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

The problem here is that because WM took pre-orders, people are treating them as a commercial team and expecting a set schedule. They WANT to avoid that so you get a complete and bug-free (or nearly so) product. If you keep pushing too hard, they might just give you what you want - a buggy unfinished product. So be patient. It's been a couple years - you can wait another if need be.

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Dude, if someone pays for something and still has no idea when it will be released a year after they paid, I'd say they have a right to bitch. Especially when no clue was given at all that it could take so long.

I understand the desire for a bug-free game, but you simply don't take people's money and then tell them to sit back and wait until whenever it's done, especially when the latest date you gave them when they preordered was six months ago.

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And by the way, devs are often "short" or condescending. It's why companies hire people to interact with the customers instead of the devs. I'm that way myself sometimes. It's not their job to kiss ass and call it candy - that's for the help desk drones. ;)

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But since WM aren't professionals, they don't have help desk drones, so the information has been slow in coming. That's the problem.

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So if a dev deigns to leave feedback in a thread, don't count on it to be all sweetness and light. It's more often going to be sarcastic and insulting, especially when the thread gets insulting, as this one has done in places.

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I don't condone any insults, as I'm sure WM is working hard on this and really does mean to release the best possible product it can, but you have to give people a bone after a year, moreso when you've taken their money. Even the refund policy has been all over the place. They reserved the right to delay the game until last May, and now they're telling people they can't do mass refunds because PayPal fees will kill them. So the message being sent is that you paid, can't get a refund, and have no idea when the game you bought a year ago will ship. And you wonder why some people are getting pissed?

They didn't say you couldn't get a refund - just the opposite. They just said that if EVERYBODY got a refund, they'd be out more money than came in due to transaction fees. I don't think most people will want a refund as long as they know the game is coming. They just want people to understand that doing refunds costs THEM money, so don't do it lightly. If it were me, anyone canceling now would have to pay full price once it is out... assuming they don't sell out before then. No discount like those of us who pre-ordered and stuck with it got. But that's just me. :D

Actaully he said:

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Originally Posted by Zebbe

We cannot refund all who pre-ordered, as it would lead to thousands of dollars in PayPal fees.

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

They didn't say you couldn't get a refund - just the opposite. They just said that if EVERYBODY got a refund, they'd be out more money than came in due to transaction fees. I don't think most people will want a refund as long as they know the game is coming. They just want people to understand that doing refunds costs THEM money, so don't do it lightly. If it were me, anyone canceling now would have to pay full price once it is out... assuming they don't sell out before then. No discount like those of us who pre-ordered and stuck with it got. But that's just me. :D

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I'm starting to come round to thoughts of why can't they provide proper updates or a release date? It's been a long time coming and at the moment there's not even a hint of an expected release date or what people can expect to happen next. Not even sure why they started to take the money in the first place, non of the programmers are being paid from what I can gather and its caused quite a bit of upset and false expectations.

What happens for example if something goes wrong and they need to provide refunds? They can't do it due to high fee costs so people will lose their cash?

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Originally Posted by Lorfarius

Not even sure why they started to take the money in the first place, non of the programmers are being paid from what I can gather and its caused quite a bit of upset and false expectations.

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Because they want to release it as a physical product? No way would they spend thousands on everything needed to produce lots and lots of complete physical copies and not expect to get compensated.

I'm sure once the game is released(god knows when) that no one is gonna care about any of this anymore :P

I'm pretty sure he meant "take money at the time that they did". I doubt he was expecting it for free.

What good would setting another release date do? They couldn't stick to the first one so what's to say they'll stick to a new one?

I said it before and I'll say it again - allow access to the beta to those who've pre-ordered, and show off more videos and screenshots for those who haven't. You added someone to the team to address this issue specifically, so why isn't he doing it?

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Originally Posted by username

What good would setting another release date do? They couldn't stick to the first one so what's to say they'll stick to a new one?

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It will set a realistic expectation. Something they haven't done in a while, & with the current status being near release it would deflate speculative arguments, give the project back some hype, and if it needs to be busted, it can be 'Pushed' with an honest update & report, instead of dissolved completely with silence and vague promises.

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Originally Posted by username

I said it before and I'll say it again - allow access to the beta to those who've pre-ordered, and show off more videos and screenshots for those who haven't. You added someone to the team to address this issue specifically, so why isn't he doing it?

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Yes you have said it before, and it's still 'Beyond Stupid'
Allowing 'Beta' access to what is effectively 'the entire customer base for a product' is unrealistic, absurd, ridiculous, etc.

Reworking the beta rom to boot on emulators isn't exactly on their priority list. Sending such a rom into the wild is effectively killing potential hype in selling the game via another platform should they choose to port it for profit, and the age-old piracy argument can be thrown up against potential 'sales' regardless of platform.

They have already stated, they're building it at cost, with the hopes of reaping profits on future runs, whatever that may be.

Why would they effectively kill that potential?

Stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster

It will set a realistic expectation.

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What makes you think it would be realistic, though? They've already proved that they're wildly optimistic at best and totally clueless at worst; any new date would be as baseless and pie-in-the-sky as the last one and won't hold them to anything. Talk is cheap.

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Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster

Yes you have said it before, and it's still 'Beyond Stupid'
Allowing 'Beta' access to what is effectively 'the entire customer base for a product' is unrealistic, absurd, ridiculous, etc.

Reworking the beta rom to boot on emulators isn't exactly on their priority list. Sending such a rom into the wild is effectively killing potential hype in selling the game via another platform should they choose to port it for profit, and the age-old piracy argument can be thrown up against potential 'sales' regardless of platform.

They have already stated, they're building it at cost, with the hopes of reaping profits on future runs, whatever that may be.

Why would they effectively kill that potential?

Stupidity.

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They wouldn't have to rework anything - for the purposes of accurate bug-testing, maybe, but it didn't stop them from releasing that initial demo, did it? If they're worried about it leaking then they can just drop a unique code in the header of every ROM or something so that, in the event that it does leak, they'll know exactly who leaked it and can cancel their pre-order or something. No-one's going to hack any locked content from the ROM because the few people with the patience to do it in the Megadrive scene are the ones working on the game.

Face it, the majority of pre-orders have come from people caught up in the novelty of a new game for the Megadrive, with no basis in objectivity or even taste. This game will not sell on other platforms and they are going to have trouble even selling it on this one if they can't assure people that progress is being made.