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Man I really like the look of the console, the price, the concept and even the look of the controllers. But damn it! Of course the catch has to be a crappy NOAC with PC10 looking colors and inaccurate sound. Is there some way, possibly, to swap the NOAC on it with a good one? Or is there absolutely no way to desolder a "glob top"?
https://youtu.be/R5R85MuAJhc
Ugh, that sound really is rancid. I imagine that if it was possible, people would offer an NOAC swap service. To compare, this is Super Mario Brothers (a very early effort of ROM conversion) on the TG16:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_H6HnJWDwM
Genesis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CikUGpUpj-A
I was trying to find one that demonstrated the Retron HD without some doofus talking all over the gameplay, but no dice.
Oh wow, I didn't know there was a SMB conversion for the TG16. Sounds pretty bad though. I've played the Genesis SMB on real hardware, and it actually doesn't sound too bad and of course plays perfectly. Yeah, I kind of hate most of the review videos out right now on the HD Retrons since all the reviewers basically try not to say anything bad about the console because they were sent to them by HyperKin. I can't stand that he tries to say "It sounds a little off, but not bad". Are kidding me?!? He's playing SMB on it for crying out loud, the one game that you can EASILY distinguish how bad the NOAC sounds compared to a good NOAC or real hardware. And then he plays Castlvevania 3, which is pretty cool that it plays it, but it sounds awful too. A lot of things were done right for the Retron HD, but yeah, ugh! That bad NOAC sound....Quote:
Originally Posted by Raijin Z
I wouldn't care if putting a decent NOAC on it would raise the price a bit, say $10-$20 more maybe, I would very much consider buying it if it wasn't for that damn NOAC. Such a shame. Oh well, it probably has the usual crappy clone console cartridge connector as well.
If the RetroN HD is made like the GamerzTek 8-Bit HD, good luck swapping out the NOAC. Already, you can't swap out existing chip-on-board NOACs because they're directly stuck onto the motherboard and covered in an epoxy blob. Such a swap would necessitate a complete motherboard replacement.
Then comes the issue of the type of NOAC used in these HD Famiclones. Again, basing myself off what I've seen in GamerzTek's 8-Bit HD (and datasheets for the dreadful OneBus variety of NOACs - yes, datasheets exist for these), HD Famiclones use non-standard NOACs that have what I presume is some sort of digital RGB output intended to be used for TFT LCD screens, but repurposed to be output to an HDMI transmitter instead. In the first revision of the 8-Bit HD, the Composite output from the NOAC doesn't go anywhere near the HDMI transmitter while in the second revision, the NOAC's Composite output goes completely unused, instead using what looks like an encoded Composite output from the digital RGB going into the HDMI transmitter. It appears that transmitter doesn't just take a digital RGB input, upscale it and put it out over HDMI, it's also able to encode a Composite signal from that digital RGB input. It looks quite a bit different from the typical Composite output of even an original NES, looking more like the encoded Composite output of the NESRGB.
I'll be getting a RetroN HD soon and will be testing it out myself. Expect some more information when I have the system in my hands.
Wow. As usual Ace, I always learn a heck of a lot of new things from your posts. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
UGH why can't these clone console companies just suck it up and make accurate NOACs? :fit: How much do they really save by not putting a decent NOAC on them? You don't have to answer those questions, I'm just ranting.
Looks like a cheap alternative the the AVS. I'll be interested to see comparisons.
I'll be getting one to test alongside my current GamerzTek 8-Bit HD Version 1 and Version 2. Expect such a comparison on my channel when I get the system.
Oh, and I will get the AVS whenever those f*ing things are restocked for a proper comparison too.
This thing just pipes composite video through a cheap Chinese upscaler and outputs HDMI. Otherwise it's the same as the old NOAC.
^ This. It is possible. Figure out the pinouts \signals (shouldn't be that hard) it can be done and install a much better NOAC. On this thread there are pics of the Gamerztek HD NES for example showing all that is made of: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/260...-tek-8-bit-hd/ .Remove stock NOAC signals ,inject new NOAC signals and bam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
It's not a rant... it's common sense. Spend more for a quality product, and sell at a premium. Get good word of mouth from brand ambassadors and early adopters. Build positive brand recognition and a dedicated audience. Sell more. Economies of scale will eventually allow for the price to come down.Quote:
Originally Posted by roadkill
Instead they just knowingly ship inferior crap out. Their marketing folks regurgitate falsehoods in order to sell more. Most of the bigger Youtubers who get free product "overlook" flaws or just give the fluffiest overviews (masked as reviews) possible, and repeat ad nauseum until folks eventually catch on.
I'm glad that Bob of RetroRGB gave an actually useful review.
What's your channel? I'd like to check that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
This is an old video of the Gamerztek HD compared to the AVS, and a Super Retro Trio with an HDMI upscaler that I did a while back if that helps. It's only about a minute of footage, but the difference between the AVS is night and day. You'll also see that the SRT + external HDMI via composite looks almost identical to the Gamerztek HD. Skip to 1:46 to get right to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by StuOhQ
https://youtu.be/k00hUKdEXIA?t=1m46s
I have that Gamerztek thing. I haven't removed it from the box yet. I also have their Genesis thing (which does not have HDMI).
Probably best to leave the NES in the box. If you ever get around to the Genesis clone, that I'd be interested in watching that as I respect your opinions on hardware.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
No it does not. In fact, if the GamerzTek 8-Bit HD is anything to go by, Composite goes NOWHERE near the HDMI transmitter. I have both revisions of the 8-Bit HD and this is what I found:Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
-On the first revision (the one with correct duty cycles but a broken APU), Composite video goes from the NOAC to the yellow RCA connector, and ONLY the yellow RCA connector
-On the second revision (this one gets the sound wrong as the NOAC was switched to one with reversed duty cycles), Composite video is actually ENCODED FROM THE HDMI TRANSMITTER! The NOAC's own Composite output goes nowhere.
It's hard to believe, but there is a dedicated Composite output from the HDMI transmitter, and let's be honest... look at videos and screenshots from the 8-Bit HD and RetroN HD taken over HDMI. Do you seriously believe an image that clean to be Composite? If I were to guess, and NOACs like this do exist, there is a digital RGB output on the NOAC as part of a TFT LCD screen interface. Don't believe me? I can attach the datasheets I found to such NOACs.
Don't be so quick to say that a hardware clone puts out Composite over HDMI, especially if the Super Retro Trio+, RetroBit's HD 3-in-1 clone, is found to have analog RGB taken straight from the Super NES chipset and sent to the HDMI transmitter.
^Did you mean the RES+? To my knowledge, the SRT+ was teased but has no release date as of yet.
No, I mean the Super Retro Trio+. Super NES chipsets natively output analog RGB but have their video signals encoded to Composite and S-Video via a selection of encoders (CXA1145, CXA1645 and KA2198BD, usually). From my inspection of the GamerzTek 8-Bit HD, if the GT208 HDMI transmitter has a digital RGB input and the Super Retro Trio+ uses this thing, we could have a definitive answer as to what is being used in these clones to generate HDMI. If that's the case, we should see analog RGB from the Super NES board get digitized via an ADC before entering the GT208 as digital RGB.
I'm not talking about the GamerzTek HD. We're talking about the Retron thingy. SNES video is a completely different beast so I wouldn't use their SNES system to judge their NES system. I wouldn't use another company's "Trio" system to judge Retron's system. And I wouldn't use the GamerzTek thing to judge the Retron. I know someone who has been hands on with the Retron HD, someone whom I trust quite a bit about such things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
Bob asked me to look at this Retron 1 HD thing before he posted that video, so I did.
It's using a derivative of the VT18 (N)intendo (O)n (A) (C)hip. This ASIC is unique by the fact that not only does it drive CVBS. It can also output signals necessary for driving TFT LCD Displays.
http://i.imgur.com/wuwo0uP.png
http://i.imgur.com/WIsRoq6.png
http://i.imgur.com/jN2qH5e.png
http://i.imgur.com/Fl25ju4.png
This ASIC was designed primarily with the idea of stuffing it into hand-held LCD Famiclones with cheap TFT panels. But there's one important thing to understand here. The TFT RGB outputs aren't serialized, nor are they digitally sampled by the ASIC. The ASIC is cheap and is more than likely internally color decoding the NTSC/PAL signal into a friendlier format for driving these panels. So regardless if the FPGA is sampling the CVBS output or these digital/analog RGB outputs. It's still composite video, either native or or decoded. Reference the datasheet, it's all there.
As for the TFT RGB outputs being digital, have a look here:
http://i.imgur.com/bzLRDe8.png
Writing hex 40 into register 4118 enables the TFT RGB outputs.
Writing hex 30 to register 4121 turns on the analog stuff.
Depending on the resolution of your fixed panel. You'll want to start drawing at a specific point. That's what register 4120 allows you to control.
This is pretty much expected. This is what you have going to the video board from the ribbon header.
http://i.imgur.com/3qNeXw4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3jQuQ4Q.jpg
It's junk. Terrible palette entries and neutered 2A03 audio implementation. You get what you pay for.
Other than the blurring effect to mitigate dot crawl over HDMI. Your TV's internal scaling engine will probably do a better job at decoding and upscaling the CVBS output from your stock NES.
http://i.imgur.com/BuuCQyD.jpg
I'm very convinced that the VT18 is merely decoding the CVBS crap for TFT displays. Unless the FPGA is using a horrible, HORRIBLE scaling algorithm.
http://retrorgb.com/images/RetroN1vsAVS_small.png
Ugh, what a big, steaming pile of s**t. I also just recently found out from RetroRGB's real review of it on YouTube that it's not even compatible with the EverDrive. It's gotta be one of the very few clones that isn't compatible with the EverDrive. But anyway, thanks for all that info Voultar. So basically, it's pointless to buy one of these compared to just using a stock Front Loader NES, AV Famicom, or an AV modded Top Loader plugged into any HDTV's composite input. I will admit that a stock Front Loader really doesn't look horrid on HDTVs. I've also experimented with using a composite to S-Video converter cable for my Front Loader and plugged it into the S-Video input on my CRT TV and there wasn't any degradation (nor improvement) in video quality. So it is a very versatile A/V output that the Front Loader has on it.
Anyway, thanks for all the very informative replies everyone. I was just curious about the Retron 1 HD, because it does IMO have a decent looking shell design, but the insides of it are without a doubt garbage. I have a Hi-Def NES anyway but if I have to sell it for whatever reason, I was hoping for a much cheaper alternative. Looks like emulation is the only alternative.
Thanks for the info! So you are saying that the video separated board is really receiving composite signal? If so, wich pin is it? I would love to use this upscaling board in other endings!Quote:
Originally Posted by Voultar
That's not what he's saying. The VT18 NOAC appears to be decoding Composite to RGB for the HDMI scaler. I still need to confirm with Voultar if the GamerzTek 8-Bit HD's scaling is the same blurry mess as the RetroN HD. I don't have a RetroN HD yet, but just comparing my recordings of the 8-Bit HD to other people's recordings of the RetroN HD, I would say the 8-Bit HD has sharper scaling than the RetroN HD, but until I get a RetroN HD or until I can confirm with Voultar that the 8-Bit HD's scaling is actually sharper than the RetroN HD's, I'm just guessing here.
Ace, very thanks. I would love to see the RGB in pinouts for this upscaler board. By the pictures provided above, I cant understand what pins is the RGB. Sorry for my lack of understanding. By the way, the image of this 8-Bit HD is veeeeeery sharp! It even amazes me! It looks like a native HD but with the corners of the pixels a little bit rounded. Just a little... very hard to notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
Every TV I've ever tried using the 8-Bit HD on, regardless of whether it's the mangled Version 1 or the inaccurate Version 2, always had a very clean look to it with some slight blurring around sharp edges. By the looks of things, the RetroN HD is smeared all kinds, and I would think it's either caused by a terrible LCD output on the NOAC or an inferior scaler to what the 8-Bit HD uses. I will have to compare the pinouts once I get a RetroN HD to see if they're the same chip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace
I was thinking the same thing. From video reviews and gameplay captures I've seen on YouTube of the GamerzTek 8-Bit HD, the video quality does look slightly clearer than the Retron HD's, along with having colors that look similar to the PC-10 color palette.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace