ataribox

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Atari fans didn't end with the Atari 2600. Europe alone had a lot of Atari ST and 8-bit computer fans.

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Yes, but notice how we never see any of those flashbacks have anything beyond 2600 save for maybe a few 5200 or 7800 games. No Lynx, Jaguar, or computer games in those things. From the looks of things this is going to just be an emulator box for 70s and 80's hardware to cash in on the same market.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

The nearby Walmart had a whole endcap full of Atari Flashbacks and AT Games Genesis units. I went by there today, and there was one portable Genesis and 2 flashback units left. There's still a market for those games.

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And who is actually buying them? Is it a new demographic or the same aging demographic that's been buying them for years to satisfy their nostalgia itch?

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Yes, but notice how we never see any of those flashbacks have anything beyond 2600 save for maybe a few 5200 or 7800 games. No Lynx, Jaguar, or computer games in those things. From the looks of things this is going to just be an emulator box for 70s and 80's hardware to cash in on the same market.



And who is actually buying them? Is it a new demographic or the same aging demographic that's been buying them for years to satisfy their nostalgia itch?

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By this logic, soon no one living will care about the Genesis, as it's been steadily dying out while people line up to buy Nintendo boxes with a only handful of games.

The homebrew community for Atari (and other pre-8bit console) platforms is also much more active than Genesis. Both in software and physical games produced.

Mobile games featuring gameplay far simpler than what you believe pre-8-bit console games contain are all the rage now and the younger generation loves dated relics.

If you've ever been to a "retro" game convention or watch footage of one, you'd see how much kids love the games that you can't get into.

Trekkies, for someone who complains about ABF arguments so much, your behavior here is 100% from his playbook.

I wonder if that was a reference to Donkey Kong's naming process.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

By this logic, soon no one living will care about the Genesis, as it's been steadily dying out while people line up to buy Nintendo boxes with a only handful of games.

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The Genesis has more appeal though as it has a more diverse library with games that can keep your interest. There's also little reason to buy those flashback systems for it when the games included on them are available on 50 different platforms including your phone and computer.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

The homebrew community for Atari (and other pre-8bit console) platforms is also much more active than Genesis. Both in software and physical games produced.

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So? Those are typically bought more for the lulzy curiosity than actually being decent games. You're not really seeing stuff like Halo 2600 going up for sale on other platforms like you see with things like Pier Solar or your typical Dreamcast unlicensed games.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

Mobile games featuring gameplay far simpler than what you believe pre-8-bit console games contain are all the rage now and the younger generation loves dated relics.

If you've ever been to a "retro" game convention or watch footage of one, you'd see how much kids love the games that you can't get into.

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They may like them on their phones for 5 minute time killers when they're on the go. They're not going to buy a console to play those, the Ouya is proof of that. That's why I don't see this new Ataribox doing well at all.

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

Trekkies, for someone who complains about ABF arguments so much, your behavior here is 100% from his playbook.

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Yet the difference is, I'm not actually dissing the hardware or saying the games are shit or saying they suck or anything like that. I'm not making ridiculous arguments to say a competitor is better, or any of that. I've simply committed the crime of saying I have no interest in playing them as they don't interest me. Which brought out the Atari defense force to berate me with "HOW DARE YOU! WHAT ABOUT [Insert 5 minute 2600 time waster #57 here]? THAT'S AN ABSOLUTE HIDDEN GEM CLASSIC!"

Here all I did was give my blunt opinion about this console. If Atari was actually going all out trying to make a true new console that was aiming at being a newer console for newer games while still respecting their heritage I'd be applauding them for their bravery. But that's not the case. This is simply a cheap cash in on nostalgia. It's the console equivalent of if AtGames' Clones and the Ouya had a bastard love child.

If you guys can't deal with that blunt opinion then I'm sorry.

I like the 2600 but I kind of get what Trekkies means. I'm sure the games have great nostalgia for those who remember them, but there's just not much to hook new players i.e. post 1985.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Yet the difference is, I'm not actually dissing the hardware or saying the games are shit or saying they suck or anything like that. I'm not making ridiculous arguments to say a competitor is better, or any of that. I've simply committed the crime of saying I have no interest in playing them as they don't interest me. Which brought out the Atari defense force to berate me with "HOW DARE YOU! WHAT ABOUT [Insert 5 minute 2600 time waster #57 here]? THAT'S AN ABSOLUTE HIDDEN GEM CLASSIC!"

Here all I did was give my blunt opinion about this console. If Atari was actually going all out trying to make a true new console that was aiming at being a newer console for newer games while still respecting their heritage I'd be applauding them for their bravery. But that's not the case. This is simply a cheap cash in on nostalgia. It's the console equivalent of if AtGames' Clones and the Ouya had a bastard love child.

If you guys can't deal with that blunt opinion then I'm sorry.

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You pretty much said the fans of this thing would be 2600 owners (sounds like an elbow to the ribs to me) and they'd be dead soon. Well, the NES isn't exactly a decade newer either.

Atari had other systems like the 5200, 7800, XEGS and Jaguar. A person could easily get just as much enjoyment from the Jag library as they could get from the 32X. They could probably enable the system link features of some of those games through a network for online play even.

Nobody knows exactly what this thing is going to be, other than a box with the Atari Logo. It could be a system with new games coming out for it, or it could just be a box to play emulated classics.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

So? Those are typically bought more for the lulzy curiosity than actually being decent games. You're not really seeing stuff like Halo 2600 going up for sale on other platforms like you see with things like Pier Solar or your typical Dreamcast unlicensed games.

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Yup, you clearly know what motivates people buying homebrews. Are you shitting me? People make and buy homebrew games for Atari/INTV/Coleco because they're great games and are often stuff that people back then would have wanted. No one really cares about Halo 2600, but I can understand why that's the only one you know of.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

You pretty much said the fans of this thing would be 2600 owners and they'd be dead soon. Well, the NES isn't exactly a decade newer either.

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I didn't say they'd all be dead soon, I simply pointed out the blunt truth that the main demographic for Atari's flashbacks and this new console is getting older, which is true. When your only product's main selling point is nostalgia, and it appeals to a demographic that is starting to get into it's 40s, 50s, and even 60s, it's only a matter of time before your corner of the market literally starts to die off.

I was pointing out that Atari is looking at the fact that their nostalgic corner of the market that can only keep shrinking going forward unless they do something to try and stay relevant. The Atari Box is that desperate attempt to stay relevant. Unfortunately they seem to be halfassing it as it's simply an Ouya + An Atari Flashback.

Sega and Nintendo don't have this problem as they're still relevant as they still make new games and hardware respectively.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Well, the NES isn't exactly a decade newer either.

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Actually it almost is. the 2600 was released in 1977, the NES hit the US in limited quantities in 1985 with a full release in 1986. That's 8-9 years later. Throw in that many of it's classic games like Kirby and Megaman were still being made for the thing in the early 90s and you can see how it was still relevant for many younger generations. There's also the fact that many of it's games are more appealing to newer gamers as they're not just quick time wasters.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Atari had other systems like the 5200, 7800, XEGS and Jaguar. A person could easily get just as much enjoyment from the Jag library as they could get from the 32X. They could probably enable the system link features of some of those games through a network for online play even.

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Which as I said earlier where are the flashbacks for those systems? I'm guessing there's not really a market for them.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Nobody knows exactly what this thing is going to be, other than a box with the Atari Logo. It could be a system with new games coming out for it, or it could just be a box to play emulated classics.

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From what they've revealed so far it's pretty clear it's going to be an emulation box with "modern" games which will probably be on par with what we saw on the Ouya. I highly doubt you're going to see something like Skyrim, Doom, etc. coming to this thing. Why else would the main controller for the thing be a modernized 2600 joystick?

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

Yup, you clearly know what motivates people buying homebrews. Are you shitting me? People make and buy homebrew games for Atari/INTV/Coleco because they're great games and are often stuff that people back then would have wanted. No one really cares about Halo 2600, but I can understand why that's the only one you know of.

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So you admit the market is aimed at people who grew up with them? I have a few friends who do collect for the thing, and most of the homebrew I've seen them show off is more along the lines of "check this out! It's Sonic on the 2600!" which we play for about 5 minutes then move onto something else.

And I like how you expanded it to include the Colecovision. Interestingly enough that is a system I actually wouldn't mind playing stuff for. That's my cut off with how far back I'll go. The games for it tend to be more fleshed out and polished. They're less time wasters and more in line with what I expect from early NES titles. It's also a bonus that many of the homebrews for that system tend to be ports from the MSX and SG-1000 which tend to be more of what I find interesting.

Hey trekkies, I buy homebrew games yet I never had or played a 2600 until 2015. Explain that to me.

And I like how you mention the Sonic homebrew. Homebrew like that aren't the good ones. Those are the curiosities. The good ones are adaptations of arcade games or original games, but you won't look at those because they have no value.

We wouldn't be arguing with you if you weren't being insulting and dismissive. I'm sure you don't like it when people dismiss Genesis audio or claim the Saturn only had shooters and bad 3d.

Atari games are not time wasters. You can sink a ton of time into a game learning the mechanics and increasing your score. If that doesn't appeal to you, fine. But don't act like you had to be born in the late 60s to be able to enjoy it

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

Hey trekkies, I buy homebrew games yet I never had a 2600 until 2015. Explain that to me.

And I like how you mention the Sonic homebrew. Homebrew like that aren't the good ones. Those are the curiosities. The good ones are adaptations of arcade games or original games, but you won't look at those because they have no value.

We wouldn't be arguing with you if you weren't being insulting and dismissive. I'm sure you don't like it when people dismiss Genesis audio or claim the Saturn only had shooters and bad 3d.

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Except I'm not being dismissive. You guys have simply failed to show me a game that actually appeals to me. Most of what I've been shown from you guys in previous debates are still nothing but 5 minute time wasters, are games I can get better versions of on other systems, or are ports of Arcade games that either didn't interest me or are still inferior to ones I have access to on other systems.

Show me one of these good games that would justify me purchasing a 2600 in 2017.

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

Atari games are not time wasters. You can sink a ton of time into a game learning the mechanics and increasing your score. If that doesn't appeal to you, fine. But don't act like you had to be born in the late 60s to be able to enjoy it

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If the only purpose for playing the game is getting a higher score, then that by definition is a time waster. There's no real end to the game, there's no real change or progression. It's just doing the same thing over and over again, which isn't something that really appeals to me. I get many early arcade games were like this, but it's not really something I want to waste my time playing.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Except I'm not being dismissive. You guys have simply failed to show me a game that actually appeals to me. Most of what I've been shown from you guys in previous debates are still nothing but 5 minute time wasters, are games I can get better versions of on other systems, or are ports of Arcade games that either didn't interest me or are still inferior to ones I have access to on other systems.

Show me one of these good games that would justify me purchasing a 2600 in 2017.



If the only purpose for playing the game is getting a higher score, then that by definition is a time waster. There's no real end to the game, there's no real change or progression. It's just doing the same thing over and over again, which isn't something that really appeals to me. I get many early arcade games were like this, but it's not really something I want to waste my time playing.

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Fine. You're not wrong to feel that way. But I don't think we are going to see a mass extinction of Atari fans or fans if that gameplay style anytime soon.

I just think it's a tad bit hypocritical or superficial point to take. Space Harrier, Afterburner, etc operate by the exact same principle, but just have more graphics.

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

Fine. You're not wrong to feel that way. But I don't think we are going to see a mass extinction of Atari fans or fans if that gameplay style anytime soon.

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I didn't say there was going to be a sudden mass extinction of fans of that game style. I said the audience that Atari is pandering nostalgia too is getting older and will begin shrinking. Sadly this will include Atari fans. Will it completely die out in the next 10 years? Of course not, but it will start to shrink and it will only get smaller as time goes on. There's not enough younger enthusiasts like yourself going into the scene to keep it relevant and going. The sad fact is that younger generations aren't going to be looking to Atari for that kind of game style if they want it, they're going to look no further than their phones.

If Atari wants to stay relevant, they need to do more than just pander to nostalgia.

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

I just think it's a tad bit hypocritical or superficial point to take. Space Harrier, Afterburner, etc operate by the exact same principle, but just have more graphics.

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Space Harrier and After Burner actually have different levels, bosses, etc. They each take more than ~5 minutes to see the entire content of the game. On top of that they actually have an end which you can say "I won!". Perfect example of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZD-khgQ4Nc

This is a game gamevet I believe brought up as a great game for the 2600. In under 2 minutes you've seen the entire game and it repeats itself. Space Harrier is maybe into the 2nd level in that amount of time.

I can see the market for NES games shrinking considerably in the coming years. How many kids have the patience to grind through all those punishingly difficult games? Beyond the super mainstream 1st party stuff, I can see interest fading sooner than later.

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

I can see the market for NES games shrinking considerably in the coming years. How many kids have the patience to grind through all those punishingly difficult games? Beyond the super mainstream 1st party stuff, I can see interest fading sooner than later.

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Possibly, but that's not Nintendo's main market. That's only a concern for collectors worrying about their collections losing value. Nintendo is still relevant as they still make new games and new hardware. They don't have to worry about "oh no, what if interest starts to die down on our NES backlog?" Sega is in a similarly solid situation.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I didn't say they'd all be dead soon, I simply pointed out the blunt truth that the main demographic for Atari's flashbacks and this new console is getting older, which is true. When your only product's main selling point is nostalgia, and it appeals to a demographic that is starting to get into it's 40s, 50s, and even 60s, it's only a matter of time before your corner of the market literally starts to die off.

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This is what you'd said:

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It's nothing but a desperate attempt to stay relevant due to realizing they can only sell Atari Flashbacks for a few more years before their audience that still remembers them and has nostalgia for them will literally start to die off.

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A desperate attempt to stay relevant?

New flash! Atari doesn't exist anymore. It is nothing more than a brand that is owned by the highest bidder. The same with INTV properties that was acquired, and then compilations for the PlayStation and a AT games version of the Intelivision was released as well.
The children of the gamers from that generation probably got to experience those games as well, and the carts and systems are still being sold at flea markets and used video game stores. There are people out there that buy these outdated games and systems to experience them. Not everyone buys them because they have a nostalgic view of them. ABF bought a 5200 to experience what it was like to own a console that came out before his time, and he enjoyed it.

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I was pointing out that Atari is looking at the fact that their nostalgic corner of the market that can only keep shrinking going forward unless they do something to try and stay relevant. The Atari Box is that desperate attempt to stay relevant. Unfortunately they seem to be halfassing it as it's simply an Ouya + An Atari Flashback.

Sega and Nintendo don't have this problem as they're still relevant as they still make new games and hardware respectively.

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The Ouya was nothing more than a console to play modern indy developed titles, and it was totally useless, because the PS3 and 360 had better indy developed titles and more of them.

Nintendo isn't licensing it's hardware out to 3rd parties.

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Actually it almost is. the 2600 was released in 1977, the NES hit the US in limited quantities in 1985 with a full release in 1986. That's 8-9 years later. Throw in that many of it's classic games like Kirby and Megaman were still being made for the thing in the early 90s and you can see how it was still relevant for many younger generations. There's also the fact that many of it's games are more appealing to newer gamers as they're not just quick time wasters.

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The VCS was irrelevant in 1977 and sold less than the NES in its first year. The 2600 wasn't a solid seller until 1979 when Atari acquired the license for Space Invaders. The 2600 Jr. was released in 1986 for $50 and wasn't discontinued until January of 1992. That's a much longer time gap than the 10 years that the NES was being sold by Nintendo of America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_2600

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Which as I said earlier where are the flashbacks for those systems? I'm guessing there's not really a market for them.

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Atari 7800 games were included with the 1st flashback console.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Flashback

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From what they've revealed so far it's pretty clear it's going to be an emulation box with "modern" games which will probably be on par with what we saw on the Ouya. I highly doubt you're going to see something like Skyrim, Doom, etc. coming to this thing. Why else would the main controller for the thing be a modernized 2600 joystick?

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That's assumption for now. The system includes a mouse and keyboard.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

This is what you'd said:

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I know what I said, and I didn't say they'd all be dead soon which you can see in what you quoted of me.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

A desperate attempt to stay relevant?

New flash! Atari doesn't exist anymore. It is nothing more than a brand that is owned by the highest bidder. The same with INTV properties that was acquired, and then compilations for the PlayStation and a AT games version of the Intelivision was released as well.

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So? It's still pretty obvious that this is a desperate attempt by whomever is at the helm of Atari as a company or brand or whatever it is to keep it relevant.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

The children of the gamers from that generation probably got to experience those games as well, and the carts and systems are still being sold at flea markets and used video game stores. There are people out there that buy these outdated games and systems to experience them. Not everyone buys them because they have a nostalgic view of them. ABF bought a 5200 to experience what it was like to own a console that came out before his time, and he enjoyed it.

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And that's probably a small number in the grand scheme of things. Yeah I see Atari games and systems at retro game stores, but I don't see the stock really selling that often. Yeah a few might sell here and there, but it's not selling nearly as well as it was years ago. The Atari market pretty much tanked a few years back as is obvious from just doing a quick search on ebay.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

The Ouya was nothing more than a console to play modern indy developed titles, and it was totally useless, because the PS3 and 360 had better indy developed titles and more of them.

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Yes, and this is looking to be nothing more than a console to play retro Atari games and modern indy titles on. It will be totally useless.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Nintendo isn't licensing it's hardware out to 3rd parties.

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No one said they were and I don't see how that's relevant.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

The VCS was irrelevant in 1977 and sold less than the NES in its first year. The 2600 wasn't a solid seller until 1979 when Atari acquired the license for Space Invaders.

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And using that logic we could say the NES wasn't relevant until 1987 or so. We'd still be at about the same time gap.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

The 2600 Jr. was released in 1986 for $50 and wasn't discontinued until January of 1992. That's a much longer time gap than the 10 years that the NES was being sold by Nintendo of America.

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And let's be honest, the 2600 Jr. was an attempt to cash in on nostalgia and the success of the NES as the 7800 certainly wasn't selling all that well. How many units did the 2600 Jr. actually sell?

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Atari 7800 games were included with the 1st flashback console.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Flashback

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Yeah 5, and some of them were just nicer versions of earlier 2600 games. It's not like they're really putting much emphasis on that library.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

That's assumption for now. The system includes a mouse and keyboard.

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It's literally stated on the site that it's focused on retro titles and new indy games.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

And using that logic we could say the NES wasn't relevant until 1987 or so. We'd still be at about the same time gap.

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You pretty much did say that, with the excuse that the NES was in limited markets in 1985. None of that matters, because just like the NES, most of North America didn't know or care about either system until a couple of years later.

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And let's be honest, the 2600 Jr. was an attempt to cash in on nostalgia and the success of the NES as the 7800 certainly wasn't selling all that well. How many units did the 2600 Jr. actually sell?

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No!

My friend's younger brother didn't have any experience with the 2600 until he got a $50 2600 Jr. The NES was still flying under the radar in 1986.

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Yeah 5, and some of them were just nicer versions of earlier 2600 games. It's not like they're really putting much emphasis on that library.

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It doesn't matter. The libraries of the 5200 and 7800 were well under 100 titles, and most of them were from 3rd parties that couldn't be brought over. Centipede on the 2600 was pretty gimped, so having the 7800 version was a much better option.

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It's literally stated on the site that it's focused on retro titles and new indy games.

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Which could include more obscure titles from the entire backlog of Atari's home systems. The Ouya had none of that.

And for the record, I never said that Phoenix for the 2600 was a great game. It's a good port of the arcade game, which could also be completed quite quickly once you've mastered the enemy patterns. A game like Omega Race has a lot more levels and challenges, but you'll never see it on a flashback, or this console, because they would have to pay for the rights to the game. Using your logic, you've seen all that you can see with Pac-Man, because it only had one maze.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Nobody knows exactly what this thing is going to be, other than a box with the Atari Logo. It could be a system with new games coming out for it, or it could just be a box to play emulated classics.

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They stated it's pretty much a low-end PC running Linux that can run any program that Linux normally can. In fact from their description of the original idea, apparently it's really meant to be just a PC that's easy to plug into a TV, aimed to parents who want a cheap computer for their kids.

For whatever idiotic reason they decided that stylizing it into an Atari 2600 shape is a great idea, though, and now they're getting all the mocking from it as a result. I wonder if they just licensed the Atari name to try to gain some quick attention but then executive meddling from the owner of the brand is resulting in all that stupid mess.

Even after all this crap and bullshit I’d rather own an Ataribox than an Xbox One or PlayStation 4. Those other systems are just PC’s too but without all the Atari drama. What’s the fun in that??!

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Originally Posted by Sik

They stated it's pretty much a low-end PC running Linux that can run any program that Linux normally can. In fact from their description of the original idea, apparently it's really meant to be just a PC that's easy to plug into a TV, aimed to parents who want a cheap computer for their kids.

For whatever idiotic reason they decided that stylizing it into an Atari 2600 shape is a great idea, though, and now they're getting all the mocking from it as a result. I wonder if they just licensed the Atari name to try to gain some quick attention but then executive meddling from the owner of the brand is resulting in all that stupid mess.

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Actually, they were calling it a mid-range computer with an AMD CPU an GPU, though I think mid-range is a bit generous, that will include some pre-loaded classics and a back catalog of @200 titles. We'll find out what the rest of the spiel amount to in the spring of 2018.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Actually, they were calling it a mid-range computer with an AMD CPU an GPU, though I think mid-range is a bit generous, that will include some pre-loaded classics and a back catalog of @200 titles. We'll find out what the rest of the spiel amount to in the spring of 2018.

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“Mid range PC” is what an Xbox One is, technically.

Maybe the launch model, and I'd call that entry level at best. I have an old PC with a 2012 GPU that performs much better than either of the launch consoles offered by MS and Sony. Xbox One X is slightly above mid-range.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Actually, they were calling it a mid-range computer with an AMD CPU an GPU, though I think mid-range is a bit generous, that will include some pre-loaded classics and a back catalog of @200 titles. We'll find out what the rest of the spiel amount to in the spring of 2018.

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They explciitly stated you shouldn't have your hopes high for any game that requires good hardware to run properly and suggested that 2D indie games and such are better suited for it*, so I'm assuming it leans more towards lower end =P

*Kind of disagree, the amount of unoptimized Unity abominations where devs don't even know how the engine handles things let alone trying to keep its resource usage in check can't be overstated.

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Originally Posted by AlecRob

“Mid range PC” is what an Xbox One is, technically.

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An Xbox One is not dealing with all the software overhead a normal PC has (and is also way more predictable hardware-wise which allows for some riskier optimizations in games, as you can know they'll work).

The Xbox One can barely do 1080p.

I wonder if Tempest 4000 will run in 4K on ataribox