Printable View
yes but I mean playing pal saturn games on a pal machine. not pal games on an ntsc machine unless they were not optimized that doesn't work well. I have a pal and ntsc saturn to have the best of both worlds. also these days pal games are considerably cheaper.
I had 3 Pal Saturns now (1 given to me by my Brother) but back in the day when the likes of Tomb Raider came out, I only had my Launch Grey JP Saturn and the likes of Tomb Raider didn't look right.Back then my local import shop could only fit a region switch to my Saturn, it wasn't possible to fit the 60/50 Hz switch on Mark 1 Jp Grey Saturns back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by bultje112
It was very rare but games like Tomb Raider, Exhumed came out on Pal 1st so that would be the main time I went for Pal
No he said they used 100k on WDC and maybe Stunt Race (the grain of salt was for the later).Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
That was a nice review of WDC from you. Here's mine for Sega Rally. Visually, Sega Rally is inferior to me. There's too little going on, the pop-up is very close, the cars feel like they are hollow and made of paper because of the rough edges (low poly count), the dithering "shadow" effects and the "glass" on the cars are terrible as usual on the Saturn, the dirt/smoke effects look like a glitch and there are empty areas and gaps without polygons or textures behind billboards or areas where the camera isn't supposed to go but it does anyway if you want, to save polygons. They also use a lot of 2D sprites for scenery to hide the fact that the poly count is low. And there are 1 or 2 opponents on screen maximum who just cruise along, they are just obstacles for you to pass them, they aren't really opponents, much like Top Gear Rally.
The only good thing about it is that it's sharp and has better textures. And i like it more as a game.
Spare me with this nonsense. Or prove it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bultje112
Mednafen is accurate. That's why it requires a very capable system (which i have). SSF (the more popular emulator for Saturn) also runs the game the same. Why the hell would an emulator run a 30fps game at 20 (or 17 for PAL)? It would have to be a broken one with completely messed up timings. Also, every other game runs at the correct speed (as per Sega-16 claims at least) but the ONLY ONE that happens to run at the wrong speed is this one game we are arguing about? How convenient.
Sorry but i wouldn't trust the words of a random person on the internet without some kind of evidence. I provided info from 2 different emulators (one is accurate) that anyone can reproduce and videos that clearly show the game is not 30fps. Also you need to use some logic and math here at least. I explained to you how refresh rate on TVs and frame rate work together. So the math doesn't agree with you.
I mean, the fact that you and Andromeda didn't even know PAL games had lower frame rates because of the PAL refresh rate standards is very surprising to me. That's like the most basic level of knowledge in retro games.
Ok and i explained to you the difference of PAL optimized games vs average ones. Mainstream game magazines would never tell you in detail what exactly things like that mean. And most of the time there was misinformation as well, based on rumors, word of mouth, etc. Ask the guy from Digital Foundry today and he will tell you the same things as i did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Sorry Soulis, but either you can't read, or have a lack of comprehension. The dude included Stunt Racer when he talked about the polygon count of WRC, meaning that they both achieved similar numbers. He said take that with a grain of salt, meaning that it was a rough estimate and not a concrete value.
There's nothing about WDC that makes me think, the Saturn or PlayStation couldn't do that, unless we are talking blurring everything out to the point of making it look worse. Rogue Squadron is a game I'm most certain would give the Saturn fits and make the PlayStstion sweat.
I know you can get wireframes in Satourne. Do any N64 emulators offer a wireframe view? I don't expect anything to actually count polygons but that would at least be an interesting comparison to look at.
Jabo's graphics plugin has a wireframe mode. Although the plugin itself isn't as good as GlideN64 but it should be good enough for most games.Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
Not being tech minded I remember being completely underwhelmed by the N64 when it finally came out in the UK early '97. With it being touted as a 64 bit machine I was expecting it to be twice the power of the Saturn and PS1 lol! How little I understood. As far as I was concerned the N64 made 3D effects look smoother and more rounded and...that was about it. I certainly didn't see many examples of games that could not have had very respectable ports on the Saturn or PS1. I remember playing Croc and Spyro the Dragon back in the day on the PS1 and thinking that they looked just as good as Super Mario 64.
Daytona USA CE is a better example of Gfx in a Saturn racer. In that game you not only have full screen 30 fps, 40 cars on track and Online play, its pushing a lot of polygons and runs at a higher screen res to that of WDC (bring up the ram cart if one must)can you name one N64 racer that features 40 cars on a single track? . In a interview with Climax, They said Dark Saviour was pushing 140,000 polygons and they had maxed out the VDP1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
I'm not sure if that was true, but both VF and Dark Saviour pushed over 100,000 polygons . Also I don't get why you go on about the 2D sprites, when even the Arcade version of Rally used 2D sprites on the crowd, the Arcade version had to use mesh on its windows and N64 games use 2D sprites to cover its lack of polygons too WDC (on the street cables for example or on the start sign lights). One plays Mario 64 and you see 2D sprites used on the tree's, 2D sprites used for the rope on the bridges, 2D sprites used for the fencing on the side of the railings/bridges, 2D sprites used for the snow and so on .
2D sprites are even used in todays racers like GT Sports or Forza 7. So its rather pathetic and lame to single out the Saturn for it . I will give real top credit to WDC for its use of the rear view mirror, that was somthing one didn't see a lot of back inthe day (other than in Rage Racer)
I have been open and honest, I've not played the Pal versions and can't say myself, All I'm going on is what the mags said at the time. They said the Speed was the same too, unlike say the Pal port of Code Veronica on the DC where the Pal port was made to run at full screen, but the game wasn't optimised to run at 30 fps.Quote:
Ok and i explained to you the difference of PAL optimized games vs average ones.
And how many polygons each of these 40 cars have? And how many of them you can see on screen at once?
I mean, F-Zero X has 30 cars on screen all at once. And sure, the game has much simpler graphics with tracks set up on the sky to avoid background details (and to keep the same theme with the SNES version). But it also runs at 60fps, at a much faster pace than anything from this gen and has more going on with physics, AI, etc. It's light on graphics but i would bet it's a CPU nightmare.
It's not easy to tell how many polygons games use. There isn't enough info about this online. At best you can find info about individual models (Mario's model, Crash, Sonic, etc in various games. There's even a youtube channel for this). I can only speak for WDC because i found a few sources about it and that's it. So i can't discuss this further without sources or evidence. I can only speak for what i can prove, at least to a certain degree. I can tell with my eyes that WDC looks more complex than Sega Rally ofc. Not sure about Daytona CE, i haven't played this game much.
Ok but try to understand that there is no such thing as Pal games "optimised to run at 30 fps". 30fps NTSC translates to 25fps PAL, optimized or not. Game speed/pace is the only thing that's changing with optimization (and screen size).Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
So that's a no then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
Yeah all low polygon and where you next to no detail on the backgrounds with a complete lack of 3D scenery. Still it run at 60 fps, which was like the only time a N64 game hit that mark.Quote:
I mean, F-Zero X has 30 cars on screen all at once
I simply said that, because I remember Sega Rally Pal times being allowed to be entered into World championship because it was said to play at the same speed as the NTSC counterparts, where as Pal times for Maio Kart weren't able to put in the world times. I've not played the code or played the Pal version myself. All I will say its I can see a Big difference between 25 fps to 30 fps as one sees when playing both Panzer Dragoon games on NTSC and I it would be nice to see if ones sees the same sort of difference between Pal Sega Rally and NTSC Sega Rally, given one is 25fps and the other 30fpsQuote:
Ok but try to understand that there is no such thing as Pal games "optimised to run at 30 fps
Far more 3D polygons on the backrounds, but then Rally features much better and far more detailed texure mapping and better main pyshics onthe player car . I would say Touring Car, car models on the Saturn used around the same number of polygons on the car to that of WDC, just a shame the frame rate is below 25 fps and just not smooth enoughQuote:
I can tell with my eyes that WDC looks more complex than Sega Rally
See, that's the problem with you people. You are so eager to shit on the console that you do these claims without knowing what you are talking about. Worse yet, you do this in a conversation with someone who at least looks like he is more informed about the particular console.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
And if Daytona can't display all 40 cars on screen then there is no such thing as "it has 40 cars, therefor it pushes more polys". Polygons on screen means exactly that. On screen.
Its not eager just the truth. How many N64 games run at 60 fps the list is tiny. AM#2 and AM#3 most prob made more 60 fps games on the Saturn on their own, to what all developers did on the N64.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
I said on track. The game has to keep track of and control 40 cars going around the track. That is a lot of work for the CPU and even today something we don't see in a racer today, much less back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
Oh, so now the list is tiny huh. Isn't F-Zero "the only time a N64 game hit that mark" anymore? So what was the point of your previous post? Not the "truth" obviously. More like a hyperbole because when you want to shit on something hyperbole helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Smash Bros is a 60fps game (at least on the campaign and 2 player mode, never played with more). MK4 is 60fps. Killer Instinct also. Dark Rift is 60 but that game looks like shit so who cares. Pretty sure there was a Japanese fighting game that also did run at 60fps.
Now of course you are going to move the goal posts and start picking whatever looks bad in these games. But that doesn't matter, neither of these games are "the best looking N64 games". They do run at 60fps so you were wrong.
Oh and as for Daytona... i tried very hard to make it display more than 9 cars at once. I think i managed to hit 10 but i'm not sure. The draw distance is too short to see the cars that are further away and the ones that you can see in the maximum distance are like 5 pixels each. So they could use LOD and turn into single digit polygon shapes for all we know. Seems you were wrong with that too.
Oh so you are talking about what the CPU keeps track of? Then why did you protest at my claim that F-Zero has 30 cars at 60fps? It has to keep track to 10 less but at twice the frame rate. The number of polygons doesn't matter in this context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
And by your logic, even Top Gear Rally has 20 cars, even though you can only see 3 at once (i think i managed 4 once). And there are these Nascar and F1 games on the N64 that have tons more.
I was making fun and the yeah the list is tiny. Like I said AM#2 and AM#3 ontheir own made more Sega Saturn games at 60fps than what all developers combined did on the N64. And no I'm not moving goalposts at all. I've always said the N64 was a letdown for frame rates , sound and screen res, which it was. That's why along with its lack of Sound hardware I'm glad Sega Japan turned the chipset down. My issue with the Saturn hardware was it lack of 3D alpha effects which really showed up in all its 3D game. But like I've always said all systems back then had good and bad points. N64 came 2 years latter and it wasn't that big of a jump at all imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
Didn't protest at all. Simple said Daytona USA CE had more cars on track and also was handling far more 3D and polygons on its backrounds to that of F-Zero X. I give it credit for running at 60 fps but that came at a cost to the backrounds and very simple models. Kind of like Saturn Street Racer 60 fps and its incredible 8 player split screen gameplay, came at the cost of polygons on for the player and AI vehicles and flat tracks.Quote:
Then why did you protest at my claim that F-Zero has 30 cars at 60fps?