The Nintendo 64 Classic Edition.

Early NES games look like Colecovision games. A lot of those early NES games only had 32k of memory. That's why Donkey Kong didn't have the 4th level. And PONG is not 8-bit; it doesn't use a processor.

Have you ever seen Gran Turismo 2 running on Bleemcast? You'd mistake the game for a DC racer, once the texture smoothing is applied. The Polygon output of the game is just fine.

The pop up in Manx TT is acceptable, unlike some of those horrible fog covered racers on the N64. The arcade game of Daytona had pop up as well.

Hey! Look! The model 2 arcade game of Manx TT has pop up as well.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

The pop up in Manx TT is acceptable, unlike some of those horrible fog covered racers on the N64

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Ok i guess you are just trolling here or you are completely unfamiliar with N64 racers.

I can name games too.

Beetle Adventure Racing
F1 World Grand Prix
Hydro Thunder
Roadsters
Ridge Racer 64
SF 2049
Episode 1 Racing
Stunt Race 64
Top Gear Rally
Top Gear Overdrive
World Driver Championship

All these racers have very little pop-up or very distant fog (not this awful Manx TT draw in) and a few of them almost none at all. Most of them are also far beyond Saturn's capabilities as well. But sure, lets all keep thinking of the foggy Extreme-G as the real representative of N64 racers even though only few crappy ones in the whole library have such terrible draw distance.

Also, i don't know why you are posting arcade games with pop-up but anyway, here is one from that era with almost unlimited draw distance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxHNhTDW0Lg

Like i said previously, it was up to developers and every game had it's own take. Until the Model 3/Naomi/DC era where the resources were enough to eliminate pop-up in most games.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Ok i guess you are just trolling here or you are completely unfamiliar with N64 racers.

I can name games too.

Beetle Adventure Racing
F1 World Grand Prix
Hydro Thunder
Roadsters
Ridge Racer 64
SF 2049
Episode 1 Racing
Stunt Race 64
Top Gear Rally
Top Gear Overdrive
World Driver Championship

All these racers have very little pop-up or very distant fog (not this awful Manx TT draw in) and a few of them almost none at all. Most of them are also far beyond Saturn's capabilities as well. But sure, lets all keep thinking of the foggy Extreme-G as the real representative of N64 racers even though only few crappy ones in the whole library have such terrible draw distance.

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You're assuming wrong. I've had the N64 since the launch in North America. I've played a ton of games on all 3 consoles of that generation when it mattered.

Most of those N64 racing games have short draw distance and a really bad sensation of speed. It's much easier to cover the track ahead of you with a tunnel or a wall, since it requires less polygons to do so. Top Gear Rally hides its draw distance with fog, as does Episode 1 Racing with it's minimum objects in the distance. The most impressive racer, Wave Race, chugs down when too many racers are on screen together, but it's still a great looking and playing racer. World Driver also hides the distant track behind a lot of buildings and rocks so it won't have a ton of pop up either.




Games like Manx TT, Sega Rally 95, Gran Turismo 2 and Need for Speed III are more impressive, because they have farther drawing distance and faster movement of images than any of those N64 racers. Trying to defend N64 racers by pointing out pop up (not hidden behind fog on the other consoles) as making a racing game unworthy of playtime is what I'd consider trolling.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Ok i guess you are just trolling here or you are completely unfamiliar with N64 racers.

I can name games too.

Beetle Adventure Racing
F1 World Grand Prix
Hydro Thunder
Roadsters
Ridge Racer 64
SF 2049
Episode 1 Racing
Stunt Race 64
Top Gear Rally
Top Gear Overdrive
World Driver Championship

All these racers have very little pop-up or very distant fog (not this awful Manx TT draw in) and a few of them almost none at all. Most of them are also far beyond Saturn's capabilities as well. But sure, lets all keep thinking of the foggy Extreme-G as the real representative of N64 racers even though only few crappy ones in the whole library have such terrible draw distance.

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Manx TT on the Saturn came out around the same time as Extreme-G. Other than Top Gear Rally, most of the games you listed came out way way later. Manx TT's draw distance isn't great, but it was within acceptable range at the time. At least it's not so bad as to hamper gameplay. I never felt like turns or objects/enemies came up to me out of nowhere in that game, and it has a pretty good sense of speed.

Manx TT's main contemporaries on the N64 were Extreme-G, Top Gear Rally, and Multi Racing Championship. You could also say Mario Kart 64 and Diddy Kong Racing, but they're harder to compare. Of those former three, Multi Racing Championship is pretty comparable, though subjectively uglier IMO. Extreme-G's draw distance is worse, with the trade-off that what you do see looks pretty good. Top Gear Rally has considerably better draw distance, at least at times (it's not fully consistent), but with less visual track detail.



In the overall picture, I think Manx TT holds up decently. I don't feel like these games blow it away or that Manx TT is "awful" in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Also, i don't know why you are posting arcade games with pop-up but anyway, here is one from that era with almost unlimited draw distance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxHNhTDW0Lg

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That game looks very dull. Of course if a game strictly prioritizes one or two things, it will exceed its contemporaries in that way. That's not too impressive.

Fog wasn't an issue in N64 racers the way it was for other random N64 games or some genres.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Trying to defend N64 racers by pointing out pop up (not hidden behind fog on the other consoles) as making a racing game unworthy of playtime is what I'd consider trolling.

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Except that i don't mind pop-up or fog in most games and i never claimed any game unworthy to play just because of that. I'm just pointing out the obvious double standards in this forum. I enjoyed Turok, many early racers on the PS1 with heavy pop-up, Alien trilogy, Silent Hill and many other games with very limited view distance. There are only a few games where it bothered me, like Sonic-R (because you can see the foreground appear in front of the clearly visible, unlimited draw distance backgrounds), Nights, the aforementioned Extreme-G (because a linear racing game shouldn't have fog so close), Cruisi'n USA and the first Daytona Saturn release. And a couple of those i would still gladly play because they are decent games.

I just find it weird that you (and others) seem to absolutely hate fog and popup in N64 games in particular, enough to condemn any game that has it, without caring if said game is good or not, but if the same issue appears in games in your favorite console, they get a pass. Sonic-R? Fine. Nights? Again, fine. Silent Hill? Awesome. But Turok? Oh no, i can't have that, that's where i draw the line.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Most of those N64 racing games have short draw distance and a really bad sensation of speed. It's much easier to cover the track ahead of you with a tunnel or a wall, since it requires less polygons to do so. Top Gear Rally hides its draw distance with fog, as does Episode 1 Racing with it's minimum objects in the distance.

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Well, you are wrong. As you can see from the above TGR video, the game doesn't hide the track in fog or in tunnels, unless you pick "foggy" as your weather of choice in the track. Episode one does have fog in some instances but in others you can see very far away. It has a lot of diversity in it's environments. Let alone detail. And you need to play some of the others too.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Games like Manx TT, Sega Rally 95, Gran Turismo 2 and Need for Speed III are more impressive, because they have farther drawing distance and faster movement of images than any of those N64 racers

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Manx TT and Sega Rally have more intense pop-up than any of the games i mentioned.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

Manx TT on the Saturn came out around the same time as Extreme-G. Other than Top Gear Rally, most of the games you listed came out way way later. Manx TT's draw distance isn't great, but it was within acceptable range at the time. At least it's not so bad as to hamper gameplay. I never felt like turns or objects/enemies came up to me out of nowhere in that game, and it has a pretty good sense of speed.

Manx TT's main contemporaries on the N64 were Extreme-G, Top Gear Rally, and Multi Racing Championship. You could also say Mario Kart 64 and Diddy Kong Racing, but they're harder to compare. Of those former three, Multi Racing Championship is pretty comparable, though subjectively uglier IMO. Extreme-G's draw distance is worse, with the trade-off that what you do see looks pretty good. Top Gear Rally has considerably better draw distance, at least at times (it's not fully consistent), but with less visual track detail.

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I agree with everything you say (can't rep you though). But it wasn't me bashing Manx TT. I actually like how the game looks for a Saturn game. The pop-up is what i would expect for the game to have. Actually, i don't think i'm bashing any games in this particular topic, i mostly defend them.


Anyway, here's a later N64 racing game, similar to F-Zero in design, but with better draw distances and track detail, even some big animated objects. Just to take away that bad taste in the mouth Extreme-G left for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0vsBMN21cU

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Except that i don't mind pop-up or fog in most games and i never claimed any game unworthy to play just because of that. I'm just pointing out the obvious double standards in this forum. I enjoyed Turok, many early racers on the PS1 with heavy pop-up, Alien trilogy, Silent Hill and many other games with very limited view distance. There are only a few games where it bothered me, like Sonic-R (because you can see the foreground appear in front of the clearly visible, unlimited draw distance backgrounds), Nights, the aforementioned Extreme-G (because a linear racing game shouldn't have fog so close), Cruisi'n USA and the first Daytona Saturn release. And a couple of those i would still gladly play because they are decent games.

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That is not the impression I got when you said this.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Yes, the N64 wasn't that great. Neither was the Saturn, so SOJ turned one system down and got an even crappier one. I don't see how it's something to be happy about. The PS1 had the best balance overall but that wasn't great either. None of the 5th gen consoles were "great". All were just barely capable of running 3D textured games at acceptable speeds. It wasn't until the Dreamcast where i felt i could enjoy 3D games at home without huge compromises (excluding the PCs at the time of course).

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I pointed out Manx TT, because it didn't have huge compromises over the arcade, and even though it did have pop up, so did Sega's own Model 2 arcade racers. The pop up in Manx TT did nothing to diminish the experience of playing the arcade game in the home, unless you count the cheating AI. And like Sega Rally 95, there was no huge compromises. If you ask me, the 16-bit racers were pretty crappy, compared to how awesome the 32-bit racers were.

And then it's statements like what I've put in bold above that isn't going to earn you any people on your side here. The N64 does have the ability to draw nice stable polygons, but after that, I feel the system falls far shorter of the other consoles in its ability to create superior audio, decent textures, or 2D games.

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I just find it weird that you (and others) seem to absolutely hate fog and popup in N64 games in particular, enough to condemn any game that has it, without caring if said game is good or not, but if the same issue appears in games in your favorite console, they get a pass. Sonic-R? Fine. Nights? Again, fine. Silent Hill? Awesome. But Turok? Oh no, i can't have that, that's where i draw the line.

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I don't hate fog, if it's done right. But, there's no excuse for the desert planet of Tattooine to have fog on it's track, or in a game that features Desert Rally Racing. It's totally wrong and the only reason it is there, is to hide the lack of textures in the distance, that don't pop in until the objects are closer. I'll gladly say that the N64 has a lot of great games, but I'm not going to defend fog filled racing games with a lack of the sensation of speed as being a better option than a racing game that makes you feel like you're flying down the track, even though there is occasional pop up.

I don't like Sonic R, btw. I got rid of it back when I needed money for Dreamcast games. I still have Turok and Turok 2, so that ought to tell you something.

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]Well, you are wrong. As you can see from the above TGR video, the game doesn't hide the track in fog or in tunnels, unless you pick "foggy" as your weather of choice in the track. Episode one does have fog in some instances but in others you can see very far away. It has a lot of diversity in it's environments. Let alone detail. And you need to play some of the others too.

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It hides a lot of things behind flat rocks and trees. There's one point where a hill in the distance just sort of starts growing out of the ground; you don't call that pop up? Your car just plods along at a really slow pace, so it's not like the game is being really demanding on the system to draw new rocks and objects every second.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

It hides a lot of things behind flat rocks and trees. There's one point where a hill in the distance just sort of starts growing out of the ground; you don't call that pop up? You car just plods along at a really slow pace, so it's not like the game is being really demanding on the system to draw new rocks and objects every second.

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Well yeah, there is pop-up but it's so far away that you have to point it out, much like you just did. So i don't know how you don't see the difference here. The cars are slow because it's the first bunch, you need to play the game and unlock faster cars later on that improve the sensation of speed by a lot. And sure, the track doesn't have tons of decorative details and there are areas that look bland but it's still good enough for an early N64 racer. Later on BOSS Studios managed to squeeze the system a lot more.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

And then it's statements like what I've put in bold above that isn't going to earn you any people on your side here. The N64 does have the ability to draw nice stable polygons, but after that, I feel the system falls far shorter of the other consoles in its ability to create superior audio, decent textures, or 2D games.

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I realize my statement was a bit trollish but really, it's the same tone as other posts when it's about the N64 ;)

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Well yeah, there is pop-up but it's so far away that you have to point it out, much like you just did. So i don't know how you don't see the difference here. The cars are slow because it's the first bunch, you need to play the game and unlock faster cars later on that improve the sensation of speed by a lot. And sure, the track doesn't have tons of decorative details and there are areas that look bland but it's still good enough for an early N64 racer. Later on BOSS Studios managed to squeeze the system a lot more.

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ABF used to say the same thing, but you know what? Just about all of the racing games feel like that on the N64. I really think that it is a hardware flaw, where the system is incapable of drawing a bunch of objects on the fly at a rapid pace, so instead it draws what it can and keeps it stable for the long amount of time that it is on the screen. I once thought that F-Zero X was running at blazing speed, until I noticed that it was cheating. The tube level in particular had me saying WTF? I'd noticed that the polygons forming the tubes weren't changing much, and it was just a line moving down the tube that gave the impression of movement. The game wasn't actually drawing a bunch of different polygon shapes on the fly.

What do you mean "ABF used to say the same thing" ? You don't believe me or something? That's how the game is. You have slow cars at first and then faster ones later on. I personally finished it a few times and the later cars can be so fast that it's hard to control them in later levels with narrow roads.

As for your comments about hardware flaws and the other stuff you are talking about, i just never had this issue. F-Zero feels like that in the tube areas because they are made of very few polygons. There aren't many geometric details that stick out to zip past you. All you have to portray speed it the textures and the high frame rate. But other than that you had to be crazy to complain about the sense of speed in F-Zero X. There wasn't any other game that compared to it in that aspect. Devs made big sacrifices in the visuals to achieve that.

And since you are complaining about sense of speed, i wonder what are your thoughts about Grand Turismo. Because of all the games i played in that gen, this one had the worst feel IMO. Can't say Sega Rally had better or worse sense of speed than most N64 racers either. Manx TT feels pretty fast though.


Edit: Maybe it's the way the N64 handles 3D polygons that makes you feel this way? The only difference here is that the N64 has stable, solid walls instead of wobbling surfaces. Maybe the warping/wobbling on Saturn/PS1 makes it look like there is more motion on screen?

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Originally Posted by Soulis

What do you mean "ABF used to say the same thing" ? You don't believe me or something? That's how the game is. You have slow cars at first and then faster ones later on. I personally finished it a few times and the later cars can be so fast that it's hard to control them in later levels with narrow roads.

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He'd say that it was because you were playing with the slower cars in the earlier levels, and that I'd never played the later levels where the cars were faster. The sensation of speed was never there with those games.

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As for your comments about hardware flaws and the other stuff you are talking about, i just never had this issue. F-Zero feels like that in the tube areas because they are made of very few polygons. There aren't many geometric details that stick out to zip past you. All you have to portray speed it the textures and the high frame rate. But other than that you had to be crazy to complain about the sense of speed in F-Zero X. There wasn't any other game that compared to it in that aspect. Devs made big sacrifices in the visuals to achieve that.

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Inside the tubes it felt the same way. There's one point that it looks like you are driving backwards, if you pay attention to the textures passing by. It's sort of like the same effect when you look at a car's rims spinning, and they appear to be spinning backwards. The open areas have a great sensation of speed, but there's literally nothing being drawn outside of the track.

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And since you are complaining about sense of speed, i wonder what are your thoughts about Grand Turismo. Because of all the games i played in that gen, this one had the worst feel IMO. Can't say Sega Rally had better or worse sense of speed than most N64 racers either. Manx TT feels pretty fast though.

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Gran Turismo felt a lot faster once you got into the Super cars. You always start out with cheap 4 cylinder cars in the beginning, with a top end speed of @ 120 mph.

Top Gear Rally was way slower than the arcade racer Sega Rally 95.

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Edit: Maybe it's the way the N64 handles 3D polygons that makes you feel this way? The only difference here is that the N64 has stable, solid walls instead of wobbling surfaces. Maybe the warping/wobbling on Saturn/PS1 makes it look like there is more motion on screen?

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That was a problem with earlier PlayStation games. Wipeout 3 and Ridge Racer Type 4 didn't have that issue. Speaking of Wipeout, Wipeout N64 had a lot of pop up, while Wipeout 3 was much smoother, ran at a faster pace and had very little pop up.

The one racer on the N64 that I'd felt gave the best sensation of speed was Ridge Racer, followed closely by Episode 1 Racer. Still, I've always felt that a majority of the racing games on the PlayStation and Saturn always delivered that sensation of speed better than the racers on the N64.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

They didn't really work wonders though. Others like BOSS studios and Factor-5 were the ones that really pushed the system.

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Boss did ok, but even their driving games suffered with washed out gfx and a Blurry display. Not at all impressed with Factor 5 work on the N64 myself. RS may have been doing a lot under the hood and it was 360 3D, but I thought Panzer Dragoon Zwei looked and sounded way-way better. I did like what Paradigm got out of the N64 with Pilotwings 64 and its F1 games. Even if it was a cost of low frame rates and super low res gfx.

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Yes, the N64 wasn't that great. Neither was the Saturn, so SOJ turned one system down and got an even crappier one. I don't see how it's something to be happy about

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Becasue the Saturn offered the best 2D going, fab sound hardware and also a system that could handle detailed texture mapping, High Res graphics (without the need for a Add-On) and also clear vibrant RBG display.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

Manx TT on the Saturn came out around the same time as Extreme-G. Other than Top Gear Rally, most of the games you listed came out way way later. Manx TT's draw distance isn't great, but it was within acceptable range at the time.

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What you seem to miss out, Is Manx TT was a port of a game running on the Most Advanced Arcade around at the time. It wasn't a game built around the Saturn hardware or a port of a game running on some 3Fdx board, But a port of Modle 2B board . Yet Manxt TT supports decent gfx and doesn't run at low res like Extreme G or Top Gear Rally.

The N64 hardware came 2 years after the PS or Saturn and yet it many many cases it was outclassed. Pretty rubbish after all the hype and what it cost NCL for that chipset.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Is that an example of "little pop-up" to you?

Edit: I saw you changed it to "acceptable". I still think it looks like a good example of bad 5th gen era pop-up in racing games.

N64, SAT, PS1 aren't the equivalent of the NES, MS when it comes to sprites. 8-bit covers a wide range of systems. From powerful arcades with custom hardware to PONG home machines.

I would say they are more like the equivalent of a Colecovision.

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I think shutoku battle 97 on saturn is a good example how saturn could handle racing games in the right hands. and look, no fog! and barely any pop up.