The Nintendo 64 Classic Edition.

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11-17-2017, 05:14 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

Nintendo always cared more about the younger audiences. Also, Sony beat them because they marketed games as the next trendy/hip thing for everyone, even non-gamers. Before Playstation, games were this "nerdy" niche hobby that many other people would mock but these same people bought a Playstation because games were hip now. The N64 wasn't a complete failure for a games console, it just looked like it because the PS1 became so mainstream in comparison.

I hate it when people say that. It was SEGA that really tried and started to make consoles cool to own with the Sega Mega Drive. Sega Europe really pushed ahead with its cool SEGA Pirate TV ads, it had countless celebrities seen with SEGA clothing on, its spend huge amounts on sponsoring football, F1,. Sega really started that ball rolling, really started to try and make the MD cool to own. Even today though, they were always been people that see gaming as nerdy

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Sure but i don't care that much personally. In 1997 i wasn't in the mood of playing these old-skool games that i already played to death on my Mega Drive or SNES

That's just silly fan talk. In the mid 94/5 no even the PC could offer 3D fighters which were above the old school 16 bit 2D fighters, all you had was FX fighter.
No wonder so many have issues with the Nintendo faithful any time a Nintendo game or system fails to offer a game genre or hardware feature then just by 'sheer coincidence' The Nintendo faithful don't like it or want it and that's been the case for the likes of 1080p support, online, 3rd party support and for added irony FPS's.
Its amazing how many Nintendo fans hate on and say they don't like FPS on the Xbox or PS only to bring up how wonderful the N64 was for FPS and can't wait for 'yet' another Prime, the same ones who rather split screen, only to rave how wonderful playing Mario Kar online is, the ones who said HD is just shiny GFX, only to then say how wonderful Mario Kart 8 looks in 1080p
11-17-2017, 07:39 AM
Jeckidy

I despise Mario Kart 64 and will never go back to it. How in the world such a lifeless and mediocre game is still being spoken of as the pinnacle of N64 gaming is beyond me. Double Dash is still the best Mario Kart, IMHO. I despise both the original SNES and N64 Mario Karts. Neither have held up particularly well, and although I used to love the latter, it was really underwhelming when I went back to try and play it again after all these years. I promptly sold it.
11-17-2017, 09:06 AM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

I was pretty clear so it's not my fault.

Yes because listing a bunch of games, the majority of which are on the N64 in an N64 thread is pretty clear you mean the PC versions. :roll:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

Sure but i don't care that much personally. In 1997 i wasn't in the mood of playing these old-skool games that i already played to death on my Mega Drive or SNES. I bought a "next-gen" console for new experiences that couldn't be done on the older 16-bit consoles.

I was not aware the SNES and Genesis were capable of producing quality ports of Dead or Alive, Virtua Fighter 2, Tekken, Soul Edge, X-Men vs Street Fighter, etc.

Even for 2D fighters this is pretty silly logic. If you liked games like Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat, would you not want to play a new entry in the series on your new system? This is what I was getting at more with the comment of if the N64 had more of them you'd care about them.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

You also claim that you want to discuss about the "pros and cons" but i almost never see you talk about the pros for this particular system in this forum. You (and some others) just always exaggerate about the cons, in the same way ABF exaggerates about the pros. I'm somewhere in the middle and that apparently makes me a fanboy in this forum. Now this should make sense in a forum that's called "Sega-16" but you also claim that you aren't as biased as something like Nintendo Age so...

So here's the thing. I don't hate the N64. But it is last in how I rate those three consoles of that generation. This may seem crazy to some people as it does have some classics like Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Smash Bros. F-Zero X, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Marokart 64, Diddy Kong Racing, Mario Party, Pokemon Stadium, Paper Mario, etc. The Problem is when you venture beyond those offerings you come up really short on other games to play. Especially ones that are still worth playing today. This is even true for some of what I just listed. For example I wouldn't recommend the N64 version of Perfect Dark to play these days, the frame rate is just awful. I'd go for the XBLA remaster.

On top of that 3D platformers of that era bored me to death. Why? Because they all tried to copy Mario 64 and we ended up with a bunch of dull collect spam quests. I didn't really have a lot of fun with a 3D Platformer until Sonic Adventure came along on the Dreamcast. Sure I had some fun with Mario 64 and Banjo Kazooie, but after about 15-30 minutes I'd get bored and turn them off. Sonic Adventure on the other hand I had fun playing for long periods of time and actually finished it.

The N64 pro's in my book are that it does good solid feeling 3D graphics for it's generation, and it has some good couch multiplayer games. Beyond that though there's not a whole lot positive to speak to. The cart size severely limited games, internal bottlenecks results in poor texturing and games looking blurry, the controller was clunky and cumbersome, etc.

I wouldn't say any of us here have exaggerated a con of the N64. We've simply brought them up. The issue is that you, and especially ABF, don't want to hear them and will go out of your way to either defend those cons or write them off as unimportant. I'm sorry but writing off the systems lack of entire Genre like RPGs or Fighting games because "Those are old-skool I don't care about them" is just blatantly fanboyish. I may be a Saturn fan, but I'll at least own up to the fact the system is lacking in good 3D Platformers and Action Adventure games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

Nintendo always cared more about the younger audiences. Also, Sony beat them because they marketed games as the next trendy/hip thing for everyone, even non-gamers. Before Playstation, games were this "nerdy" niche hobby that many other people would mock but these same people bought a Playstation because games were hip now. The N64 wasn't a complete failure for a games console, it just looked like it because the PS1 became so mainstream in comparison.

I call bullshit. If Nintendo only cared about younger audiences why were they scrambling so hard to get SNES ports of Mortal Kombat and then make sure they didn't censor them after the first one? If Nintendo only cared about a younger audience why did they push for games like Goldeneye and Perfect Dark and then promote the hell out of them?
11-17-2017, 09:07 AM
Thief

I despise N64 Mario Kart too. Or least started to pretty soon after buying it bitd. Should try it again these days and see if my mind changes, as it could.

In all honesty, at the end of the day, bitd, of all N64 games bought... not one ever made me want to go back too. This includes Goldeneye. ... Oh wait, no. Want to go back to Majora's Mask.

For recent years, Castlevania 64 was a pleasant surprise. Surprise enough that I beat it with both characters, then moved onto Legacy of Darkness expansion and beat it with all characters too (5 of them). Though Castlevania 64 is much better then LoD, LoD level design changes suck for the worse and it's filled with more of what feels like padding. Yet all the casuals put LoD on a higher pedestal then C64, seems no matter what I'm always in the minority with games and movies. Which I'm fine with, because it means I'm sane enough.
11-17-2017, 11:39 AM
Soulis

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Yes because listing a bunch of games, the majority of which are on the N64 in an N64 thread is pretty clear you mean the PC versions. :roll:

I mentioned that i played Strategy and RPGs on PCs, in that same post. So it's your fault.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Even for 2D fighters this is pretty silly logic. If you liked games like Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat, would you not want to play a new entry in the series on your new system? This is what I was getting at more with the comment of if the N64 had more of them you'd care about them.

What new entries? After the Ultimate MK3 (that was released on the 16bit consoles) MK series went 3D. As i said, my favorite MK was MK2, i liked MK3 for the combos and fast gameplay but after that i stopped caring. Same with SF series. After SF2 Turbo on the SNES, i didn't care that much for the others. Although i did like SF3 but that wasn't released on the PS1 or Saturn anyway, you needed a Dreamcast for that CPS3 port.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I wouldn't say any of us here have exaggerated a con of the N64. We've simply brought them up. The issue is that you, and especially ABF, don't want to hear them and will go out of your way to either defend those cons or write them off as unimportant. I'm sorry but writing off the systems lack of entire Genre like RPGs or Fighting games because "Those are old-skool I don't care about them" is just blatantly fanboyish. I may be a Saturn fan, but I'll at least own up to the fact the system is lacking in good 3D Platformers and Action Adventure games.

I never said the N64 has a better library than the PS1. I even said i would not recommend a N64 to a random person, unless i knew about his specific tastes. And i also said i missed some 2D exploratory games on the N64, like Metroid or SOTN which is the one game i always envied on the PS1. All is my personal opinion, like everyone else here, regarding a list of games for the N64 mini. And because everyone else here says mostly negative things about the console, my comments stick out. So i'm a fanboy sure but not a console fanboy. I said this before, i'm a games fanboy. It just happens that the N64 had more games that appeal to me.

And yes, you do exaggerate it's cons. And also fall into double standards territory when you criticize it's games. Most notably Turok's fog. This was a problem with most 3D games back then, especially those with an open world. You even had pop-up/fog in other PS1 FPS games that didn't even feature open world designs or even 3D models, like Alien Trilogy. But i never hear anyone complain about that here. Alien Trilogy is a fine game but Turok is abhorrent only because of it's fog, even though both have it and even though only Turok has an excuse for having it (fully 3D models, large, open environments). And btw, i love both games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I call bullshit. If Nintendo only cared about younger audiences why were they scrambling so hard to get SNES ports of Mortal Kombat and then make sure they didn't censor them after the first one? If Nintendo only cared about a younger audience why did they push for games like Goldeneye and Perfect Dark and then promote the hell out of them?

Nintendo of Japan didn't care for all these afaik. But sure, the N64 is not a "kiddie" console anymore? Great then, i agree.

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Originally Posted by Thief

I despise N64 Mario Kart too.

I will agree to this as well. As far as gameplay goes, this is the worst entry for me. The controls are weird and the rubber banding AI is just annoying. The only great thing about it is the music.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I hate it when people say that. It was SEGA that really tried and started to make consoles cool to own with the Sega Mega Drive.

Yeah but i would still see kids and colorful games in most marketing material. Sony went more with an adult attitude. It wasn't really a "games are cool" strategy. It was more of a "games are trendy/fashionable" thing. There is a difference i believe. I think Sega's approach is closer to Microsoft's "dudebro" marketing and not Sony's.
11-17-2017, 11:41 AM
Greg2600

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

Anyway, in the topic of a N64 mini, i'm not very excited about it. A N64 without games like Goldeneye, Perfect Dark or Banjo-Kazooie is only half of the N64 experience. It's like releasing a PS1 mini without Metal Gear or Final Fantasy 7. Also, the list looks very kids friendly. Something like DOOM 64 (a unique exclusive) or Turok 1 (a popular violent N64 representative) wouldn't hurt. Instead you get Bomberman 64 that wasn't even that prominent for a N64 game.

I'm still interested about the better video output quality and the new, better built classic N64 controllers though.

Wink Wink but it's highly likely this will be moddable, allowing for play of the RARE titles. I imagine there *could* be emulation issues but if the SNES Mini can play chips that weren't included, N64 mini should be fine.
11-17-2017, 11:57 AM
Black_Tiger

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg2600

Wink Wink but it's highly likely this will be moddable, allowing for play of the RARE titles. I imagine there *could* be emulation issues but if the SNES Mini can play chips that weren't included, N64 mini should be fine.

You're bringing up the problem with all of these Nintendo bricks, the core value is just the mini console shell.
11-17-2017, 11:57 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

Yeah but i would still see kids and colorful games in most marketing material. Sony went more with an adult attitude. It wasn't really a "games are cool" strategy. It was more of a "games are trendy/fashionable" thing. There is a difference i believe.

This is where you are wrong. Sega kept the blood in with Mortal Kombat, so it did for Doom, it allowed Night Trap on its system and even after the huge public media outcry, it kept on selling it, a move which Nintendo America called immoral.
Sega made huge play on being everything Nintendo wasn't and also made huge moves to make consoles cool to own, used the Pirate TV ads to push the idea of being anti-establishment and trying to apply to the older 'male' gamer (yes it was sexist but that was the norm in the 90s) and even made moves with setting up its Deep Water label, which was all about games with Adult content.
11-17-2017, 12:18 PM
Baloo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeckidy

I despise Mario Kart 64 and will never go back to it. How in the world such a lifeless and mediocre game is still being spoken of as the pinnacle of N64 gaming is beyond me. Double Dash is still the best Mario Kart, IMHO. I despise both the original SNES and N64 Mario Karts. Neither have held up particularly well, and although I used to love the latter, it was really underwhelming when I went back to try and play it again after all these years. I promptly sold it.

I completely agree. The first two Mario Karts are total junk...and Double Dash is by far the best, yet gets the least attention. I never understood why....I think Double Dash is the pinnacle of the series, with the exception of some kart racers getting way overpowered items. But handling-wise it is the best.
11-17-2017, 12:24 PM
Soulis

I was bored of Double Dash very quickly. Mario Kart DS and Mario Kart 8 are far better games IMO. Double Dash also had a boring soundtrack with only one or two themes being worthy for me.
11-17-2017, 12:48 PM
bultje112

mario kart 64 sucks today yes, but it was pretty fun back in the day but nothing too shocking. Imo mario kart 8 for wii u is the best mario kart game though, although not as good as sonic and all star racing transformed.
11-17-2017, 12:57 PM
Soulis

Quote:

Originally Posted by bultje112

Imo mario kart 8 for wii u is the best mario kart game though, although not as good as sonic and all star racing transformed.

Only if you play the PC version. 60fps adds a lot in racing games. So much so that in this day and age it should be the standard. Still, i prefer Mario Kart 8, especially the DLC tracks. That Ribbon Road track is the most impressive thing i ever saw in a game of this kind, it almost looks like a CGI scene from Toy Story. The Big Blue track is the most fun to play though.
11-17-2017, 05:31 PM
Greg2600

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

You're bringing up the problem with all of these Nintendo bricks, the core value is just the mini console shell.

Of course, they're collectibles. Most of us have the original systems.
11-17-2017, 10:02 PM
sull56ivan2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

Only if you play the PC version. 60fps adds a lot in racing games. So much so that in this day and age it should be the standard. Still, i prefer Mario Kart 8, especially the DLC tracks. That Ribbon Road track is the most impressive thing i ever saw in a game of this kind, it almost looks like a CGI scene from Toy Story. The Big Blue track is the most fun to play though.

Who cares if it's on a PC?

Do any of you even play multiplayer? That's where the fun mostly is with the Mario Kart games. Balloon Battle. Nuff said. If you want single player stuff, go look to Crash Team Racing or the last few Sega Racing games. Lot of depth with those set of games, especially Crash.
11-18-2017, 04:30 AM
Azathoth

Quote:

Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010

Who cares if it's on a PC?

I guess people that want to play that (excellent) game without dealing with inconsistent framerates on consoles or sub 25fps rate on handhelds? Or big Ryo fans?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010

Do any of you even play multiplayer? That's where the fun mostly is with the Mario Kart games. Balloon Battle. Nuff said.

For local multiplayer I completely agree, but that pretty much applies to any game. Honestly though, I find little difference between playing offline against the CPU or online with other people in MK8 or MK8D. By removing any way to interact with others the only difference is you might find human opponents making stupid mistakes the AI wouldn't.
11-18-2017, 08:19 AM
Thief

What do you mean you can't interact with other player if they're online, you all Italians and need to read hand gestures too? Mama Mia.

If you want to find other people to play with, you can't ever do better then online. Where else can you can meet with other people any time of the day for as long as you want for what what particular game you may like. Bbitd I could never get anyone to play me Mortal Kombat 1 & 2 for more then a few rounds, wasn't until the internet that I could finally play against other dedicated human players and finally began learning to play the game for real. Massive game changer and a dream come true.
11-18-2017, 08:26 AM
Blades

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

No, not really. I never cared for these genres. Even now that i have access to every game i want i still don't touch them. Especially JRPGs, they annoy me to no end. I prefer western RPGs and the PC had the best ones

I don't know if I forgot to ask or you missed it, but what are some examples of good western RPGs from that era?
11-18-2017, 10:17 AM
Soulis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blades

I don't know if I forgot to ask or you missed it, but what are some examples of good western RPGs from that era?

The usual suspects like the Fallout games, Baldur's Gate, Diablo, etc. Although i wasn't really into RPGs until later with stuff like Divine Divinity, Diablo 2, Baldur's Gate 2. Most of my late 90's PC gaming was strategy games (Starcraft, Red Alert, Dungeon Keeper, etc) and FPS (everything from Doom to Half-life).

I never liked JRPGs during the 16bit era mostly because of the random encounters and turn-based battles. I started to like turn based battles in strategy games like Heroes and Disciples on PC but i couldn't stand the more modern JRPGs because of the obnoxious anime characters, the pandering and fanservice to anime fans, the annoying voice acting, the melodrama, the ridiculous designs with everything looking overly detailed and busy for the sake of it (especially the outfits) and more.
11-18-2017, 10:03 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

I mentioned that i played Strategy and RPGs on PCs, in that same post. So it's your fault.

And then you go on to list a whole bunch of N64 games for what you were playing with 1 PC game and one that could be on both. God forbid someone assume you meant the N64 version in a thread about the N64. Again either be clear or don't get upset when people make assumptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

What new entries? After the Ultimate MK3 (that was released on the 16bit consoles) MK series went 3D. As i said, my favorite MK was MK2, i liked MK3 for the combos and fast gameplay but after that i stopped caring. Same with SF series. After SF2 Turbo on the SNES, i didn't care that much for the others. Although i did like SF3 but that wasn't released on the PS1 or Saturn anyway, you needed a Dreamcast for that CPS3 port.

The Alpha series for Street Fighter was pretty significant. I'd even go as far to say that Alpha 3 was more well received than the actual real Street Fighter 3. And then there's the Marvel vs Capcom series that started during that Generation which was fantastic. And for Mortal Kombat you had excellent versions of 3 On the Saturn and PS1 that were far better than the Genesis/SNES conversions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

I never said the N64 has a better library than the PS1. I even said i would not recommend a N64 to a random person, unless i knew about his specific tastes. And i also said i missed some 2D exploratory games on the N64, like Metroid or SOTN which is the one game i always envied on the PS1. All is my personal opinion, like everyone else here, regarding a list of games for the N64 mini. And because everyone else here says mostly negative things about the console, my comments stick out. So i'm a fanboy sure but not a console fanboy. I said this before, i'm a games fanboy. It just happens that the N64 had more games that appeal to me.

I know you didn't say the N64 had a better library than the PS1. I didn't claim that you did. I said you try to defend or write off it's short comings as unimportant, which you did in the very post I'm quoting. First you still keep writing off the lack of fighters and RPGs as unimportant, and you continue to make excuses for Turok's abysmal fog. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

And yes, you do exaggerate it's cons. And also fall into double standards territory when you criticize it's games. Most notably Turok's fog. This was a problem with most 3D games back then, especially those with an open world. You even had pop-up/fog in other PS1 FPS games that didn't even feature open world designs or even 3D models, like Alien Trilogy. But i never hear anyone complain about that here. Alien Trilogy is a fine game but Turok is abhorrent only because of it's fog, even though both have it and even though only Turok has an excuse for having it (fully 3D models, large, open environments). And btw, i love both games.

Turok get's criticized because some people here have put it on a pedestal. The game's fog is bad, and worse than most games of the time. Ever notice how no one whines about it's sequels? It's because the issue was significantly improved for them. They still have the fog, but it's at a much further distance from the camera which allows you to actually take in the scenery and how big the areas are. Perfect Dark and Goldeneye also don't get criticized for this issue. Again because they don't have such oppressive fog. Turok may have large environments, but the fog makes it hard to actually take it in and appreciate it. Honestly when you look at a game like say Powerslave on the Saturn, or Goldeneye's Surface levels, they're much nicer and more impressive looking if you ask me. Why? Because you can actually see everything at a given time. Some of the areas in those also get to be pretty big with rather large rooms that you can still see in their entirety.

As for Alien Trilogy, I don't think that gets a whole lot of praise. It's considered average at best last I checked. The games people usually go to on the Saturn and PS1 for good FPS games are Powerslave, Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Doom, Quake 2, etc. Then there's later releases like Medal of Honor, 007 The World is Not Enough, etc. But some of those I'm not that big of a fan of either because they too have pretty bad fog.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

Nintendo of Japan didn't care for all these afaik. But sure, the N64 is not a "kiddie" console anymore? Great then, i agree.

I never said it was a kiddie console. I simply said Nintendo wasn't really aiming for a younger audience. That pretty much ended during the Genesis/SNES era because they realized censoring games like Mortal Kombat hurt their sales and helped the sales of their competitors.
11-18-2017, 10:27 PM
Thief

Could we have some quote pyramids in the next one.
11-18-2017, 11:32 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

If we must...

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Could we have some quote pyramids in the next one.
11-18-2017, 11:39 PM
Thief

Not that's an artist.
11-19-2017, 05:52 AM
Team Andromeda

Alien Trilogy reviewed very well back in the day, but it was a game that dated very fast. I still think its a fab game. Turok N64 was great, but the fogging was terrible, but the lack of save points mid-level, really hurt the game for me
11-19-2017, 08:33 AM
Soulis

Powerslave doesn't have fog but it also doesn't have fully 3D models. It uses sprites for enemies. Goldeneye uses polygonal enemies but it doesn't really have as big environments. And the biggest ones (Surface) are mostly big empty areas with very few boxy structures and not much decoration. Turok has much bigger and complex levels that take hours to complete and they don't look as empty all the time, you get at least some ruins here and there, pillars and platforms to navigate, lots of verticality and the best looking 3D foliage and trees at the time.

Have you played the recent remastered version? There is an option to push back the fog further (not eliminate it completely) and in some areas it reveals so much geometry that i don't think it would be easy for the consoles of the era to handle. So instead of simplifying the level design, they decided to cover it. It's a gameplay vs visuals trade-off IMO. As for the sequel, well, i didn't enjoy that nearly as much as the original. Because if you want to complain about framerate issues on the N64, Turok 2 is the worst offender. And that comes from someone who enjoyed Goldenenye immensely. Turok 2 didn't just have slowdowns in particular areas or frame rate issues here and there, it was slow and laggy all the way. Turok 3 wasn't really Turok, it was a linear, standard shooter with minimal exploration and backtracking.

That said, i'm not saying the fog isn't an issue. It should be a little further away. But again, it was an early N64 title and a common problem with many 3D games in all systems so it was expected. I don't think it's enough to condemn the whole game as not worth to play. Maybe it looked weird because unlike other games that used regular pop-up or darkness to hide it, Turok went with bright fog in the middle of a day. But playing the game back then didn't really bother me. In fact, i thought it was part of the visual flair because it did look smooth and foggy enough. I wasn't smart enough to realize it was there to hide pop-up. Silent Hill did something similar later on, the fog hides pop up but also adds to the atmosphere kind of deal. Also, in Silent Hill the fog is even closer, to the point where you can't even navigate properly without the map, despite having very simple level design, but that game is a classic masterpiece, am i right?

And apart from some rare instances where the enemies could see you before you did, it didn't have a negative impact on the playability, exploration, controls, etc. The game was build around that limitation and the developers made sure the fog doesn't prevent you to see what you need at any given time, for the most part.

Also, i don't get the lack of mid-level save points complaint either. Because it did have save stations through the levels. And they were plentiful as well, which made the game somewhat easier than it should for me at least. There were even some checkpoint areas in between.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

And then you go on to list a whole bunch of N64 games for what you were playing with 1 PC game and one that could be on both. God forbid someone assume you meant the N64 version in a thread about the N64. Again either be clear or don't get upset when people make assumptions.

I'm not upset at all. I'm just pointing out you were wrong. I said "For RPGs and strategy games i had a semi decent PC". I mentioned a couple of strategy games on a list that included both N64 and PC games. Connect the dots. Even if there are two possibilities, you just picked one (the least likely but also the worst case scenario, which is that i played Starcraft on the N64) and assumed it must have been it, no way it could be the other, more likely scenario, only so you can have something extra to argue against me.

I realize this whole argument of ours is petty to say the least but i will defend it till the end. :p
11-19-2017, 09:04 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

you get at least some ruins here and there, pillars and platforms to navigate, lots of verticality and the best looking 3D foliage and trees at the time.

Yeah, that repeat endlessly (much like its music score) making all Turok levels look very similar,Turok levels have little distinction with each new stage. Never mind the trademark N64 washed out colours and blurry look, plus the game runs in low res. I enjoyed the big open levels, but would have liked to be able to save at any point.
11-19-2017, 09:23 AM
Thief

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Alien Trilogy reviewed very well back in the day, but it was a game that dated very fast. I still think its a fab game. Turok N64 was great, but the fogging was terrible, but the lack of save points mid-level, really hurt the game for me

There's Turok Remaster on Steam where you can reduce fog distance (not sure if this is via mod or in game, though). But to me it looks like the fog add to the challenge of navigating the levels, so not sure I'd remove them myself if I ever play this game. As I enjoy the challenge of navigating some games a la Shining in the Darkness.
11-20-2017, 05:32 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thief

There's Turok Remaster on Steam where you can reduce fog distance (not sure if this is via mod or in game, though).

I'm on about playing it back in the day on the original hardware and like 90% of N64 games. Turok had blurry graphics, lack of detailed texture mapping, washed out colours and horrible fogging. It did had fab effects on the weapons though, it was doing a lot in terms of huge open levels and full polygon characters, but truth be told I much rathered the gfx in Duke Nukem 3D, Exhumed on the Saturn.
11-20-2017, 06:47 PM
BonusKun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thief

But to me it looks like the fog add to the challenge of navigating the levels, so not sure I'd remove them myself if I ever play this game.

Putting "Fog" in an entire game to make it a challenge seems more like lazy programming then anything.
11-21-2017, 08:00 AM
Soulis

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonusKun

Putting "Fog" in an entire game to make it a challenge seems more like lazy programming then anything.

Team Silent must have been the laziest devs then :D
11-21-2017, 09:27 AM
gamevet

Whoever designed Extreme-G must have been the laziest of them all. You couldn't see more 10 feet of track in front of your vehicle.
11-21-2017, 10:00 AM
Thief

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSbm...em-uploademail

This guy think the N64 version of Road Rash is the best, this is a surprise if true. Love the Genesis Trilogy.
11-21-2017, 10:13 AM
JCU

Thankfully for me the N64 was at its prominence (ya right) during my college days so my gaming drastically shrunk. This was a forgettable generation at least for Nintendo.
11-21-2017, 10:20 AM
BonusKun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

Team Silent must have been the laziest devs then :D

I understand 100% that the N64 had serious limitations with Draw Distance so I'm not even considering the fog in Turok as a challenge but more of an example of how they hid the pop-ups in the game. I was fine with this in the game seeing as it was just the hardware limitations more then anything but to say the fog is there to make the game harder is asinine to say the least. :(
11-21-2017, 11:27 AM
Thief

You're getting it backwards, they didn't add the fog to make the game harder. It's there to hide system limitations which in turn also affects the difficulty in navigating massive maze like areas.

Was going to reply like this originally awhile back, but didn't think I had to so I scrapped the post.
11-21-2017, 02:04 PM
Soulis

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonusKun

I understand 100% that the N64 had serious limitations with Draw Distance so I'm not even considering the fog in Turok as a challenge but more of an example of how they hid the pop-ups in the game.

See, this is the thing. You make it sound like this problem was 100% N64 exclusive. All systems had this weakness back then, it's not like the PS1/SAT didn't have games plagued by fog or pop-up (already mentioned some prominent titles in this thread). And it's not like the N64 didn't have it's own share of games that had no pop-up or fog.

This issue is game related 100%. Sure, the hardware was weak (i ALL three consoles) but it was up to the developers skill and design choices in how to deal with this weakness.

Turok's level design didn't leave much of a choice. At best you could have the fog pushed back a few meters away assuming the game wasn't that early and had the maximum possible optimizations (not all devs are as good with this). The other option would be to simplify the design. Make the levels smaller, less expansive, less sprawling, mostly linear with less verticality. Then maybe the fog would be away enough for you to not notice it but the game would not be the same. Personally, i loved the level design and size of the levels so i'm glad they did what they did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonusKun

but to say the fog is there to make the game harder is asinine to say the least. :(

To that i agree.

However, devs used fog to mask pop-up but in some cases they tried to take advantage of this by creating some atmosphere. If Silent Hill wasn't a horror game and if the devs didn't promote the low draw distance as an "effect to make the game feel claustrophobic" most people would bash the game because it's fog/popup is the worst there is. But because they did, the game is considered a classic masterpiece. I never heard of anyone who has a problem with this game's low draw distance fog, in fact most people would bash any Silent Hill game without fog. They even made it animate in Silent Hill 2.

Btw, i love both Silent Hill games. I didn't mind the fog. In fact, i don't think pop-up/fog was ever an issue for me except in some racing games during that gen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

Whoever designed Extreme-G must have been the laziest of them all. You couldn't see more 10 feet of track in front of your vehicle.

Same people who made Turok.

See? Some devs were worst than others when it comes to draw distance in their games. Acclaim/Iguana games suffered more from this issue compared to other big developers on the system.
11-21-2017, 02:41 PM
Thief

Though haven't played any Silent Hill games yet (but want to these days), I bet the fog in the first one helps increase the game's difficulty by hiding enemies better and once again making it trickier to keep track of where you are, been and going. Though wouldn't consider hiding enemies better a design flaw (classic RE series does this too but with camera angles), just design choice like the knockbacks everyone loves to complain about in retro games.
11-21-2017, 03:17 PM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulis

Same people who made Turok.

See? Some devs were worst than others when it comes to draw distance in their games. Acclaim/Iguana games suffered more from this issue compared to other big developers on the system.

I thought it was Prope who did Extreme G. Iguana were one of the few none NCL, Rare Teams that could work wonders on the N64. Forsaken and their Sport games look really good as does Turok 2. Buck bumble as some of the worst fog I seen in a N64 game. It was clear the N64 hardware wasn't that great, thank GOD SOJ turned it down
11-21-2017, 03:33 PM
Soulis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I thought it was Prope who did Extreme G. Iguana were one of the few none NCL, Rare Teams that could work wonders on the N64. Forsaken and their Sport games look really good as does Turok 2. Buck bumble as some of the worst fog I seen in a N64 game. It was clear the N64 hardware wasn't that great, thank GOD SOJ turned it down

They didn't really work wonders though. Others like BOSS studios and Factor-5 were the ones that really pushed the system. Also RARE with the most balanced/optimized looking game on the system (Banjo-Kazooie) but later on they went overboard. The only Acclaim game i can agree that pushed the system properly (without frame rate issues like Turok 2) was the very good Shadowman port. That looked great and moved smoothly even in Hi-res mode. It was the only game i played in hi-res for this reason.

Yes, the N64 wasn't that great. Neither was the Saturn, so SOJ turned one system down and got an even crappier one. I don't see how it's something to be happy about. The PS1 had the best balance overall but that wasn't great either. None of the 5th gen consoles were "great". All were just barely capable of running 3D textured games at acceptable speeds. It wasn't until the Dreamcast where i felt i could enjoy 3D games at home without huge compromises (excluding the PCs at the time of course).
11-21-2017, 04:23 PM
gamevet

That's like saying the 8-bit era wasn't fit for sprites. There are plenty of examples of solid 3D and 2D games from that era that are still very playable today. It was also the generation when any sound a game designer wanted to use could now be done with over 90% accuracy.

I was playing Manx TT Superbike the other day. It runs blazing fast with acceptable pop up.
11-21-2017, 04:35 PM
Soulis

Is that an example of "little pop-up" to you?

Edit: I saw you changed it to "acceptable". I still think it looks like a good example of bad 5th gen era pop-up in racing games.

N64, SAT, PS1 aren't the equivalent of the NES, MS when it comes to sprites. 8-bit covers a wide range of systems. From powerful arcades with custom hardware to PONG home machines.

I would say they are more like the equivalent of a Colecovision.

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