Video Connections in Japan

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11-26-2017, 10:33 PM
Blades

Video Connections in Japan

We know (probably from personal experience) that here in America most from the Saturn and Genesis era hooked up their consoles to the TV via composite. The highest-end TVs had s-video in the early '90s, so the Saturn had that as an option. Most used composite.

My understanding is everyone in Europe used RGB through SCART which is obviously superior to composite.

What was the situation in Japan however? Did they use composite or RGB or something else for their new Saturn?

Some early Saturn games (such as NiGHTS from 1996) had anamorphic 16:9 as an option. I don't think a TV that could decode the signal was even available in the US at that time.
11-26-2017, 10:48 PM
zetastrike

I'm pretty sure most people in the US and Europe were still using RF in the 90s. I don't think RGB SCART enabled TVs were super common or cheap back then. Even composite wasn't on most low end TVs that kids were given for gaming (like me). I think people today overestimate how concerned people were with image quality back then. It's easy to hand wring about picture sharpness and color resolution now as adults, but the typical gamer (especially kids) just wanted to play the games. At my house growing up, we had our SNES and PSX hooked up via RF from the 90s-2010.
11-26-2017, 10:54 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blades

Some early Saturn games (such as NiGHTS from 1996) had anamorphic 16:9 as an option. I don't think a TV that could decode the signal was even available in the US at that time.

Those games don't really need a special TV to decode the signal. All they do is render everything narrower so that when it's stretched on a widescreen TV it looks correct and shows a little more. It will still display fine on a 4:3 TV, everything will just look a bit squished.
11-26-2017, 11:10 PM
Gryson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blades

What was the situation in Japan however? Did they use composite or RGB or something else for their new Saturn?

Some early Saturn games (such as NiGHTS from 1996) had anamorphic 16:9 as an option. I don't think a TV that could decode the signal was even available in the US at that time.

Japan was similar to NA. People generally used composite. There was more access earlier to 16:9 TVs which is why several games have the anamorphic 16:9 option.
11-26-2017, 11:26 PM
Blades

Quote:

Those games don't really need a special TV to decode the signal. All they do is render everything narrower so that when it's stretched on a widescreen TV it looks correct and shows a little more. It will still display fine on a 4:3 TV, everything will just look a bit squished.

Yes, but who had a widescreen TV capable of stretching the image in 1996? I can't think of one even available for sale in the US. All widescreen video releases on LD were letterboxed, not anamorphic. Only the highest-end 20" Sony starting in 1992 even had s-video (KV-20EXR20).

Quote:

SCART or RGB21 – Common on European and Japanese displays, almost unheard of on American sets, SCART is possibly the most confusing connector in the history of consumer electronics. Firstly, you need to get your head around the fact that these connectors can carry both the composite and S-video standards discussed above. Some SCART sockets (but not all) can also carry RGB.
RGB is the absolute best signal you can get from your Saturn and is what you should aim to use if you want the best picture quality. Finally, to confuse matters further, there’s another type of cable that uses exactly the same connector as SCART, but that is wired up in a completely different way. This is usually called RGB21. If your TV was made anywhere in Europe it will have SCART sockets, you’re only likely to encounter RGB21 sockets or cables on Japanese imports. For instance, the XRGB series of video processors (which we’ll get to later) have RGB21 connectors.

From here. If RGB21 sockets existed in Japanese sets, did video games like the Saturn or Playstation have the ability to take advantage of them?

Kids didn't care but I'm sure the developers did. I'm interested if there was a difference in mindset between American development (certainly focused on composite as confirmed in multiple interviews, for example 32X Doom) and Japanese or European.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gryson

Japan was similar to NA. People generally used composite. There was more access earlier to 16:9 TVs which is why several games have the anamorphic 16:9 option.

Can you elaborate on this? What kind of TVs were they; rear projection, CRT?
11-26-2017, 11:53 PM
cabear

i remember no one knowing what the hell i was talking about when asking at kaybees or Toys r Us about the composite cables for my genesis and then later snes.
11-27-2017, 03:52 PM
xelement5x

RGB21 is certainly not uncommon in Japan. If it was I doubt Nintendo would have taken the time to make and sell RGB cables for the SNES.
11-27-2017, 10:49 PM
Blades

Also, Japan had MUSE in the '80s, which was widescreen and high definition.

How would I even find the information I'm looking for?
11-27-2017, 11:02 PM
Blades

1990's Sony KW-3600HD had HD MUSE support, and was also widescreen. It had component input and probably RGB21 input. We didn't have an equivalent in the US until 1997 with component as far as I can tell. My guess is most people used composite but you could connect your Saturn via RGB21 to a TV like this (and even in widescreen mode, as with NiGHTS).

https://a7burq.by3301.livefilestore....&cropmode=none

Here is a good info page.
11-27-2017, 11:05 PM
Blades

And the back panel of a 1992 Japanese KW-3200HD confirming component (not RGB) support.

https://a7bvrq.by3301.livefilestore....&cropmode=none
11-27-2017, 11:10 PM
Blades

And a '94 KW-3210HD confirming NO RGB21 support on Sony's highest-end HD set.

https://arbprq.by3301.livefilestore....&cropmode=none
11-28-2017, 12:52 AM
Gryson

I don't recall ever seeing any consumer TVs with RGB21 support during my time in Japan. I think it was generally limited to high-end monitors and TVs. You can get a sense of what kind of TV supported RGB21 here:

https://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/closeds...h/rgb21/23632/

I think it was also used more often in the 80s for MSX2/PC-88/other home PC hookups.
11-28-2017, 03:14 AM
Sik

Just how many things could that KW-3200HD take? o_O

Quote:

Originally Posted by zetastrike

I'm pretty sure most people in the US and Europe were still using RF in the 90s. I don't think RGB SCART enabled TVs were super common or cheap back then. Even composite wasn't on most low end TVs that kids were given for gaming (like me). I think people today overestimate how concerned people were with image quality back then. It's easy to hand wring about picture sharpness and color resolution now as adults, but the typical gamer (especially kids) just wanted to play the games. At my house growing up, we had our SNES and PSX hooked up via RF from the 90s-2010.

People also overestimate how widespread adoption of technology is. Just because something existed back then doesn't mean everybody immediately jumped on it, not just because it's expensive, but because 1) people still take a while before ditching their current stuff (i.e. it's usually horribly old when they do) and 2) even when it becomes cheaper, lower end stuff will still lag behind and not include the newer stuff for a while, just to cheap out (and many people will inevitably buy it even if it's a horrible deal).

And that's not even mentioning that technology becoming widespread depends on the region too...
11-28-2017, 04:21 PM
chilled

I fell in love with the Mega Drive through RF slowed down PAL stretched games in MONO !

So no, we didn't care/know about image/sound quality back then. That should put our quest for the best image/sound quality in perspective. As you know, only French were forced to use RGB from the beginning, due to their weirdo SECAM video signal.
11-28-2017, 06:03 PM
j_factor

I think s-video was more widely used in Japan, because the Playstation, Saturn, and N64 all had their official s-video cables widely available in stores, which wasn't the case in North America. I've never seen English packaging for the Saturn s-video cable.
11-28-2017, 06:35 PM
zetastrike

I always shake my head when people do things like bash Nintendo for making the NES top loader RF only. They couldn't just give the AV Famicom the western cart slot and bring it over. It would have made no sense to release a composite only console in NA in 1993. If Mom and Dad bought Junior the new NES for Christmas, they'd be pretty mad if they also had to get him a brand new TV or let him use the family's big TV. The amount of people who were aware of or cared about the different video formats were a minority. We're all adults now with disposable income and access to tons of information, it's easy to care about that stuff now.
11-28-2017, 09:41 PM
Blades

Quote:

Originally Posted by j_factor

I think s-video was more widely used in Japan, because the Playstation, Saturn, and N64 all had their official s-video cables widely available in stores, which wasn't the case in North America. I've never seen English packaging for the Saturn s-video cable.

Correct, the Saturn s-video cable wasn't officially released outside of Japan. The Saturn also had an official RGB21 cable.

It appears Japanese TVs did have the edge in the '90s, if you wanted it. However, no video games supported component and only a few 16:9. The best you could do was s-video on a non-monitor TV. There was probably little difference between s-video and RGB. However, some monitors did include RGB21.
11-28-2017, 10:21 PM
j_factor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blades

Correct, the Saturn s-video cable wasn't officially released outside of Japan. The Saturn also had an official RGB21 cable.

It appears Japanese TVs did have the edge in the '90s, if you wanted it. However, no video games supported component and only a few 16:9. The best you could do was s-video on a non-monitor TV. There was probably little difference between s-video and RGB. However, some monitors did include RGB21.

In the US you could buy the s-video cable directly from Sega. I'm guessing they were just shipping the Japanese one though, because no other packaging has turned up. I bought one from sega-parts.com in 2001 and it was the Japanese one. Even the PS1 s-video cable wasn't officially available (outside of ordering direct from Sony) until like 2000 or something.

I wonder if the reason we never got JP21 is because most of our computer monitors by the late 90s didn't support SD resolutions anymore. Even NEC's "Multisync" line dropped it. I have no idea what monitors were coming out in Japan with JP21 inputs and when they were released or what their primary market was.
11-29-2017, 04:04 AM
bultje112

Quote:

Originally Posted by zetastrike

I'm pretty sure most people in the US and Europe were still using RF in the 90s. I don't think RGB SCART enabled TVs were super common or cheap back then. Even composite wasn't on most low end TVs that kids were given for gaming (like me). I think people today overestimate how concerned people were with image quality back then. It's easy to hand wring about picture sharpness and color resolution now as adults, but the typical gamer (especially kids) just wanted to play the games. At my house growing up, we had our SNES and PSX hooked up via RF from the 90s-2010.

By the 1980s rgb was already widespread with European tv's. Our tv downstairs always had rgb from as long as I remember in the late 80s and My father had a special tv for his amiga, also with rgb. I know these tv's were very expensive but by the mid 90s people had widescreen tv's (although rare) and most of the main tv's in living rooms had rgb. that's why sega saturns and psx were being sold with rgb as a standard.
11-29-2017, 06:22 PM
xelement5x

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blades

And the back panel of a 1992 Japanese KW-3200HD confirming component (not RGB) support.

https://a7bvrq.by3301.livefilestore....&cropmode=none

The input on the far right bottom seems to indicate RGB actually, though it's appears to be the VGA standard of RGBHV, not the analog version ;)

There clearly were TVs taking RGB21 in 94 when the Saturn came out, since there were RGB cables releases for it in that country and like I said earlier, the SNES had RGB cables as well, and I'm pretty sure it came out before the Saturn. They were probably not widespread, but they did exist.
11-29-2017, 09:03 PM
Blades

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelement5x

There clearly were TVs taking RGB21 in 94 when the Saturn came out, since there were RGB cables releases for it in that country and like I said earlier, the SNES had RGB cables as well, and I'm pretty sure it came out before the Saturn. They were probably not widespread, but they did exist.

Monitors yes, but TVs? Doesn't seem like it.
11-29-2017, 11:31 PM
Gryson

I was trying to find some standard consumer TVs that had RGB21 but couldn't turn anything up. Only monitors. I have a feeling there's something out there, but...

As an aside, that link I posted on the first page lists a Sony TV that has an AV Multi input (the PlayStation connector):

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/v525843139
11-29-2017, 11:40 PM
Blades

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gryson

I was trying to find some standard consumer TVs that had RGB21 but couldn't turn anything up. Only monitors. I have a feeling there's something out there, but...

As an aside, that link I posted on the first page lists a Sony TV that has an AV Multi input (the PlayStation connector):

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/v525843139

Very cool! But that's definitely newer than '90s. I wonder what D1 is?

I think RGB21 was restricted for computer use mostly. Consoles had RGB21 cables (the Saturn had an official Sega cable), but only similar to how the Dreamcast had a VGA box. I think most people 'in the know' still used composite or s-video for larger TVs.

This means only Europe was actually using RGB for their video games back then, or had the choice. Unfortunately, they suffered from lack of PAL optimization I bet.
11-30-2017, 12:22 AM
Iron Lizard

Quote:

Originally Posted by zetastrike

I always shake my head when people do things like bash Nintendo for making the NES top loader RF only. They couldn't just give the AV Famicom the western cart slot and bring it over. It would have made no sense to release a composite only console in NA in 1993. If Mom and Dad bought Junior the new NES for Christmas, they'd be pretty mad if they also had to get him a brand new TV or let him use the family's big TV. The amount of people who were aware of or cared about the different video formats were a minority. We're all adults now with disposable income and access to tons of information, it's easy to care about that stuff now.

And yet only two years later that's exactly what Sony and Sega did.
11-30-2017, 02:19 AM
Sik

Quote:

Originally Posted by j_factor

I wonder if the reason we never got JP21 is because most of our computer monitors by the late 90s didn't support SD resolutions anymore. Even NEC's "Multisync" line dropped it. I have no idea what monitors were coming out in Japan with JP21 inputs and when they were released or what their primary market was.

Probably has to do with VGA always using 31KHz (when it had to output a low resolution like 320×200, it'd repeat the lines so it was actually outputting 320×400) and being immediately incompatible with the older CGA and EGA monitors (which had to support actual low resolutions). There was no reason for a VGA monitor to support 15KHz.
11-30-2017, 07:33 AM
zetastrike

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Lizard

And yet only two years later that's exactly what Sony and Sega did.

We got our Playstation in 1997 and an official Sony RF adapter along with it, which is how it was hooked up until my brother sold it a few years ago.
11-30-2017, 10:07 AM
Gryson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blades

Very cool! But that's definitely newer than '90s. I wonder what D1 is?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Terminal

Carries a component signal.
11-30-2017, 10:43 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by zetastrike

I'm pretty sure most people in the US and Europe were still using RF in the 90s.

Almost every 21 inch Pal TV or bigger had and supported RGB scart even in the early 90's. A lot of portables didn't and that's why one had issues with most kids TV unable to support the format and hence god awful 50 Hz. Also I remember S-Video being quite widly used in Japan back inthe day
11-30-2017, 06:57 PM
gamevet

Quote:

Originally Posted by j_factor

I think s-video was more widely used in Japan, because the Playstation, Saturn, and N64 all had their official s-video cables widely available in stores, which wasn't the case in North America. I've never seen English packaging for the Saturn s-video cable.

I had a 27" Sony Trinitron in 1995. I had an S-Video cable for the Jaguar that I connected to the Trinitron with. I also had it all connected to a Pro-Logic Reciever with 6 speakers. Even when I didn't have that television, I connected my consoles to a stereo VCR using composite and ran coax to the television.