Saturn RPGs

I said the translation was something I was ok with. It's the game changes that are irksome because they are usually almost always to the game's detriment. These games are designed around certain parameters, and outside of the Telenet shit that WD started with on the PC Engine (stuff like Exile) which was broken to begin with, there was no need to appoint themselves master game designers because Vic and co. clearly weren't. There changes reek of amateur stupidity, if not outright hostility towards the source material.

E.G. Elemental Gearbolt, increasing all the enemy stats without accounting for how your guns deal damage, making what was an enjoyable and tough lightgun game into an unbearable slog.
or Raystorm, where you were purposefully locked out of playing the original arcade difficulty (you know, for a game designed around its arcade difficulty) by making it so that any time you wanted to set the difficulty to its Japanese default the game would end after stage 3
Or Albert Odyssey which "compensated" for the lowering the random battle rate by tripling the health of the boring boss fights, making some of them last for over an hour of repeating the same tactic over and over again.

There's a reason why those Un-Worked Designs patches are so well-received, because they keep the thing that people more or less like (dated pop-culture jokes aside), and remove all the stupid shit Vic Ireland added to the games.

But that's besides the point of the thread. Not even a silly WD localization could save Shining Wisdom though. Nothing could save that broken, crappy game. Virtual Hydlide is a better Saturn RPG, and you know I am telling the truth.

shining wisdom is a fine game. but you should play the pal version that has a correct translation linking the older shining games and worlds.

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Originally Posted by EmperorIng

But that's besides the point of the thread. Not even a silly WD localization could save Shining Wisdom though. Nothing could save that broken, crappy game. Virtual Hydlide is a better Saturn RPG, and you know I am telling the truth.

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TBH I've always found all the Shining games way overrated and none have much of a story or a compelling cast of Characters. I don't mind The WD changes for village talk, when that is a load of rubbish and would really matter if it was changed or not. From what I read Saga had some changes to its text and story for the Western release and the ending changed too, Skies of Arcadia had quite a lot of its texts changed and people hold it up to be a classic in the west.

Ive loved WD ports and so very wished they had the rights to translate Grandia on the Saturn back in the dayb

shining force 3 scenarios have a fabulous storyline and character development.

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Originally Posted by bultje112

shining force 3 scenarios have a fabulous storyline and character development.

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I found the 1st one to be rather lame and boring. I've never played the fan translations, so can't comment on them. Grandina story, cast of characters and sense of Adventure was and to this day, just amazing.

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Originally Posted by EmperorIng

I said the translation was something I was ok with. It's the game changes that are irksome because they are usually almost always to the game's detriment. These games are designed around certain parameters, and outside of the Telenet shit that WD started with on the PC Engine (stuff like Exile) which was broken to begin with, there was no need to appoint themselves master game designers because Vic and co. clearly weren't. There changes reek of amateur stupidity, if not outright hostility towards the source material.

Or Albert Odyssey which "compensated" for the lowering the random battle rate by tripling the health of the boring boss fights, making some of them last for over an hour of repeating the same tactic over and over again.

There's a reason why those Un-Worked Designs patches are so well-received, because they keep the thing that people more or less like (dated pop-culture jokes aside), and remove all the stupid shit Vic Ireland added to the games.

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It wasn't all bad. They improved loading times to and from battle in Albert a lot too, and I definitely appreciate the lowering of the encounter rate. And while I don't remember having any trouble with the length of the boss fights in it, they would seem to have learned their lesson there, since they did the opposite in Alundra.

On a side note, I'm not sure how many of these changes they actually made themselves. For those who don't know, I believe Vic mentioned somewhere (don't remember if it was in the translation notes or a forum post) that they would send a list of changes they wanted to the original developer, who would then implement them for them. They couldn't do this any number of times however, so testing how the desired changes worked out and then tweaking further would have been hard or impossible. This was the wall they ran into with Exile, where the tweaks broke something and accidentally made the game much harder than anticipated. But they'd used up their quota, so to speak, and so they had to ship it like that. I dunno if this was just in the earlier days though, maybe they had their own people doing this stuff later on.

As for Shining Wisdom, yeah, it was definitely disappointing. I do wonder though, how it would've turned out if they'd made it for MD or MCD or whatever they originally had in mind for it. Is there any information about that out there?

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Originally Posted by Lion

It wasn't all bad. They improved loading times to and from battle in Albert a lot too, and I definitely appreciate the lowering of the encounter rate. And while I don't remember having any trouble with the length of the boss fights in it, they would seem to have learned their lesson there, since they did the opposite in Alundra.

On a side note, I'm not sure how many of these changes they actually made themselves. For those who don't know, I believe Vic mentioned somewhere (don't remember if it was in the translation notes or a forum post) that they would send a list of changes they wanted to the original developer, who would then implement them for them. They couldn't do this any number of times however, so testing how the desired changes worked out and then tweaking further would have been hard or impossible. This was the wall they ran into with Exile, where the tweaks broke something and accidentally made the game much harder than anticipated.

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Yep, there is always that when you are handling someone else game, you have to have all changes approved. WD made some nice changes like 30% reduction in Combat, better loading times and simple stuff like using the L and R buttons on the menus. Its a shame some of their bigger plans like turning off spell animations, dying animations to speed up battles ever more, along with a host of other nice chnages were taken out at the last min. I also thought their Dragon Force and Iron Storm Saturn ports were brilliant too. Such a shame Bernie was such a dick head with the Saturn and upset one of SOA better 3rd party outfits for bringing games over from Japan, that most including SOA didn't touch.

Who knows without Bernie silly E3 actions with WD, we might have had Grandia and Sukura Wars brought over to the West on the Saturn, to join the games WD already agreed the rights too, like with Battle Garrega, Thunder Force V, Lunar 1 and II and Sokuy... Thanks for nothing Bernie!!!

Clinton jokes?

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Originally Posted by Blades

Clinton jokes?

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What the big fuss over that, when the Japanese version not doubt have references that only the Japanese would understand or appreciate for village talk. The main story, the main cast are all intact.

Honestly Lunar 2 on Sega CD was annoying as fucking dogshit that Victor implemented a "Pay to Save" system to make the game harder. That was beyond fucking stupid.

yeah, it's been said, but

panzer dragoon saga
dragon force
shining: the holy ark
shining force III: scenario 1-3 (now fully playable)
magic kngiht rayearth
albert odyssey i guess

if grandia would've been translated, this would be a better JRPG lineup than lots of systems saw

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Originally Posted by BonusKun

Honestly Lunar 2 on Sega CD was annoying as fucking dogshit that Victor implemented a "Pay to Save" system to make the game harder. That was beyond fucking stupid.

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which sucks, since i think SCD's OST is better than parts of the PSX remakes...but now im just wanting to replay the un-WD version if i can ever burn it right

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

What the big fuss over that, when the Japanese version not doubt have references that only the Japanese would understand or appreciate for village talk. The main story, the main cast are all intact.

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No, actually, the Japanese version is pretty standard JRPG stuff. No weird pop culture references or poop jokes.

It's actually quite shocking how far Working Designs went with the "translation". It's a bit of a stretch to even call it a translation.

See here for some excellent comparisons:

https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue...ences#Dialogue

For example:

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Original Japanese translation: It takes magical power to become a knight... but isn't that kind of strange!?

Working Designs version: GRUEL, GRUEL, THE MAGICAL SOUP, THE MORE YOU SLURP, THE MORE YOU POOP... HA HA HA HA HA....I JUST MADE THAT UP. FUNNY, HUH?

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Right...

^Lol wtf.

I always thought those were direct translations from the originals, turns out WD is just 7 years old. That certainly doesn't help the Saturn's case.

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Originally Posted by Gryson

No, actually, the Japanese version is pretty standard JRPG stuff. No weird pop culture references or poop jokes.

It's actually quite shocking how far Working Designs went with the "translation". It's a bit of a stretch to even call it a translation.

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But the main story and cast of characters is there, Villiage talk is all a bit meaningless. I remember Skies of Arcadia SOA changed parts of the story, script, and idioms (I knew some of the staff translating that game) . If Working Designs had done that, they'll be uproar. It just seems to be very cool to hate on WD.
What drastic changes did WD make with Iron Storm, Dragon Force compared to the Japanese versions?

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Originally Posted by BonusKun

Honestly Lunar 2 on Sega CD was annoying as fucking dogshit that Victor implemented a "Pay to Save" system to make the game harder. That was beyond fucking stupid.

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working designs fucked up so many games. vay is so terribly translated that in the first hour you encounter a cursed woman who can make you travel through the powers of her farts(!) she also killed her pets because of the smell of her farts...

working designs fucked up so many games, often breaking the 4th wall for no reason as well, or trying to be 90s hip.

I'm in two minds about this, being a translator myself. On the one hand, the original writer's intent should be respected, and making stuff up generally only makes the script dumber/more cringey than it needs to be. On the other hand, some of these older games are written in a really dry way, without any hint of humour whatsoever, and it really makes one want to touch up the script. In this sense, I get some of the changes WD introduced. Still, I generally do not do it, no matter how boring the original script is, as I'm not a fan of overediting for the sake of overediting. Yeah, you need to localize certain things usually, but not rewrite them. A great example of a localization is the Yakuza series, they really nailed it there.
Anyway, it's just a shame that mostly SEGA's platforms suffered because of this (and some PCE games). I believe Supper did some work on his Un-Worked Designs project, but mostly it just had to do with balancing, not the translations themselves - at least thus far.

If the more or less literal fan translations out there are anything to go by, then I find those old scripts to be so excruciatingly dull as to make games virtually unplayable. For instance, I remember trying some of the retranslations of Chrono Trigger and eventually just giving up and going back to the official one. I don't care if they restore something that was lost in translation if it reads like crap.

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Originally Posted by Lion

If the more or less literal fan translations out there are anything to go by, then I find those old scripts to be so excruciatingly dull as to make games virtually unplayable. For instance, I remember trying some of the retranslations of Chrono Trigger and eventually just giving up and going back to the official one. I don't care if they restore something that was lost in translation if it reads like crap.

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That's probably just a case of poor translation. Most people don't want to read a "literal" translation (however you define it); they want to read a colloquial translation that flows like natural English (in other words, you shouldn't realize it's a translation).

Many original translations were done very well in terms of readability, but for whatever reason they omitted or significantly changed content. Sometimes this just seemed to be at the whim of the translator without any obvious reason, or due to technical limitations on character length or something, which is why people are interested in more accurate translations. But a good re-translator does need to preserve the quality of the dialogue, which can often be more difficult than doing the straightforward translation.

I was curious and looked up a Chrono Trigger re-translation:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/ima...ionexample.png

Left is original, right is new. I really prefer the original here. First, it drives me crazy that the new translation includes the Japanese honorific "sama," which if you don't speak Japanese probably means nothing to you. Second, this is a great example of doing an almost word-by-word translation that just doesn't have the flow of the original. To me, nothing new was added here, but the flow of the dialogue is more cumbersome.

But in the case of Shining Force, as I recall, significant details relating to the relationships of the characters were left out, which made some parts not make sense. In such cases, re-translating part of the script could really help out.

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Originally Posted by Gryson

That's probably just a case of poor translation. Most people don't want to read a "literal" translation (however you define it); they want to read a colloquial translation that flows like natural English (in other words, you shouldn't realize it's a translation).

Many original translations were done very well in terms of readability, but for whatever reason they omitted or significantly changed content. Sometimes this just seemed to be at the whim of the translator without any obvious reason, or due to technical limitations on character length or something, which is why people are interested in more accurate translations. But a good re-translator does need to preserve the quality of the dialogue, which can often be more difficult than doing the straightforward translation.

I was curious and looked up a Chrono Trigger re-translation:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/ima...ionexample.png

Left is original, right is new. I really prefer the original here. First, it drives me crazy that the new translation includes the Japanese honorific "sama," which if you don't speak Japanese probably means nothing to you. Second, this is a great example of doing an almost word-by-word translation that just doesn't have the flow of the original. To me, nothing new was added here, but the flow of the dialogue is more cumbersome.

But in the case of Shining Force, as I recall, significant details relating to the relationships of the characters were left out, which made some parts not make sense. In such cases, re-translating part of the script could really help out.

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Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. Sadly, many sound anything but natural. It's not just that the Japanese scripts were dry or lacking humor, they also sound incredibly clunky and completely unnatural to a western audience. Or at least that was the case in the olden days of fan translations, more recent ones I've tried, like Ys IV on PCE or G.O.D on SNES are excellent.

I haven't tried the Shining Force fan translations yet (didn't even know there were any), but I imagine it would be easy to improve on the originals. Paraphrasing from memory:

"You killed my teacher! How could you be so mean?"

"Mean"? Really? That line makes it sound so trivial. Like he just stole his lunchbox or something.

I never actually got as far as that example you give from Chrono Trigger in the one I've tried, but I think it's the same fanslation. And there are many, many more examples of that kind earlier in the game, and ones that are a lot worse. Made it a chore to read the dialogue. I caught myself actively rewriting every single line in my mind to put up with it.

And I have to say, I much prefer the Western names for most/all of the characters, like the three gurus, Magus' three generals, and Magus' true name. Similarly, when I tried a Final Fantasy VI fanslation that 'restored' Terra's name to Tina, the first thing I did was undo that. I completely agree with Ted Woolsey's reasoning that while a western name like Tina might sound exotic to a Japanese audience, it absolutely doesn't to a western one. And if you want to capture that exotic quality then the name *has* to change.

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Originally Posted by Gryson

I was curious and looked up a Chrono Trigger re-translation:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/ima...ionexample.png

Left is original, right is new. I really prefer the original here. First, it drives me crazy that the new translation includes the Japanese honorific "sama," which if you don't speak Japanese probably means nothing to you.

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Oy. Whenever I see one of those translations that leaves in honorifics, I pretty much assume that (a) the person behind it doesn't actually speak the language with real fluency and (b) is infatuated with some utterly distorted/fetishized idea of Japanese-ness -- the "over there they do things right" complex -- and wants their translation to feel exotic and "other" even if it didn't feel remotely that way in the original language.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

But the main story and cast of characters is there, Villiage talk is all a bit meaningless.

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You realize that's a 100% bullshit excuse right?

You interact with NPCs that are part of the game. Changing shit up into stupid drivel about present politics kills the mood of the game overall. The NPCs in that world are meant to pull you into the world to interact and understand where you are and who the people are that live there. WD's constant breaking the fucking 4th wall kills that.

Sorry...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IptvSQY9Qa8

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Originally Posted by SegataS

Sorry...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IptvSQY9Qa8

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Stupid video & it still doesn't change the point that interaction is still part of an RPG. Of course it's much more fleshed out in this current day and age but back then getting an RPG with a good story helped you progress in the game. Dragon Force while a very good game had some of the stupidest comments from characters. One I recall was a Vampire Lord who joined up with your army. When having him build and fortify a castle he makes the comment "Playing with Legos really paid off!"

*facepalm.

Don't think I ever played a working design game tbh. I just know their games go for high prices. I never felt NPCs in JRPGs added much of anything. They may as well say nothing at all and I would not feel any different. Like a GTA NPC. Sounds like WD was trying to be cute and didn't work that well. Couldn't care less if they all said shit fuck cunt fart. NPC's dialogue never ads anything for me on thoseolder RPGs. I like what Octopath Traveler does with them. Making them useful for a change. Can help level up your character and such.

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Originally Posted by BonusKun

You realize that's a 100% bullshit excuse right?

You interact with NPCs that are part of the game. Changing shit up into stupid drivel about present politics kills the mood of the game overall. The NPCs in that world are meant to pull you into the world to interact and understand where you are and who the people are that live there. WD's constant breaking the fucking 4th wall kills that.

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No its a view and an opinion. In the Making of Lunar 1 and II. The games writers Studio Alex said they made a big effort with village speak as in most other RPGs, the talk was rather pointless and did nothing to the game and a lot of people skipped pass it. In most RPGs of that era, you didn't really need to talk the villagers and have small talk to process. WD did fantastic work on the Lunars series and I love their ports on the PS and Mega CD and to me their voice acting sometimes was better than in the Japanese originals esspeicaly on Quark for the 1st game or Zophar in the 2nd game.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

No its a view and an opinion.

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No it's bullshit.

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Originally Posted by BonusKun

No it's bullshit.

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Well, even the writers of Lunar, weren't that impressed with other RPGs small village talk and looked to change that with Lunar.

I've been playing through Zelda III again these past few days, and I'm struck by how virtually every single NPC you talk to says something that's a hint in some way, or otherwise fill some function that's relevant to what's going on. It's never just useless padding, and none of them seem without function. That's how it should be done.

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Originally Posted by Lion

I've been playing through Zelda III again these past few days, and I'm struck by how virtually every single NPC you talk to says something that's a hint in some way, or otherwise fill some function that's relevant to what's going on. It's never just useless padding, and none of them seem without function. That's how it should be done.

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Reminds me of Phantasy Star. The villagers pretty much tell you where to go and what to do (although not always directly).

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Originally Posted by Gryson

Reminds me of Phantasy Star. The villagers pretty much tell you where to go and what to do (although not always directly).

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Yet Phanstar Star saw plenty of text changes, and even characters changed for the western versions, I gather over the years there’s been various fan translations, SEGA did the same with Dark Savoiur too with the prisoner dialogue made a little jollier and also silly things like cigarettes changed to chocolates . And most people I knew were able to finish the Japanese version of Zelda III on the Snes with out understanding a line of the text.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Yet Phanstar Star saw plenty of text changes, and even characters changed for the western versions, I gather over the years there’s been various fan translations, SEGA did the same with Dark Savoiur too with the prisoner dialogue made a little jollier and also silly things like cigarettes changed to chocolates .

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The chocolate in Dark Savior was different though, as that was clearly censorship rather than somebody taking liberties with the script.

I want to mention that Tengai Makyou IV on Saturn is also an excellent game. From what I played of it, the voice cast and story and everything is very well done and certainly worthy of getting a fan translation.

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Originally Posted by Jeckidy

I want to mention that Tengai Makyou IV on Saturn is also an excellent game. From what I played of it, the voice cast and story and everything is very well done and certainly worthy of getting a fan translation.

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It's more likely that the (somewhat) censored PSP port will get a translation eventually, since Saturn is a pain to hack. I hope Tom gets there someday, since he really likes the TM series, and wants to do the PCE-CD ones first. I really enjoyed the Saturn version of this game, anyway - especially that it takes place in a completely bonkers version of the US, seen from the Japanese point of view. This means that lots of freedom talk, gun-toting, racism, and other popular stereotypes about the US are in there (and also, it's established very early on that Canada is a part of the ocean, and Alaska is an island, because of course).

As to the 4th wall breaking... I can understand that if the game itself does that frequently. It makes sense then to carry that over. Otherwise, it mostly depends on the nature of said game. I can't really imagine that being done all the time in, say, Phantasy Star 4 or older Final Fantasies, but in Earthbound it's nothing strange.

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Originally Posted by Jeckidy

I want to mention that Tengai Makyou IV on Saturn is also an excellent game. From what I played of it, the voice cast and story and everything is very well done and certainly worthy of getting a fan translation.

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Yeah, this one would be at the top of my wishlist too, right up there with Legend of Xanadu I and II on PCE. The game looks like a blast. Marica is another I'm curious about.

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Originally Posted by Lion

The chocolate in Dark Savior was different though, as that was clearly censorship rather than somebody taking liberties with the script.

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I think both are equally as bad myself and goes against the original. Also, SEGA made changes to the script as they have done with Phantasy Star, Panzer Dragoon Saga and also Skies and yet no outrage. Can't help but think many jump on Lets Hate WD bandwagon.

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Originally Posted by Jeckidy

I want to mention that Tengai Makyou IV on Saturn is also an excellent game. From what I played of it, the voice cast and story and everything is very well done and certainly worthy of getting a fan translation.

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Agreed, lovey game that again was overlooked by the baboons at SOA at the time. Got the nice Edtion that came with the guide

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/964/4...953b2aa3_k.jpg

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I think both are equally as bad myself and goes against the original. Also, SEGA made changes to the script as they have done with Phantasy Star, Panzer Dragoon Saga and also Skies and yet no outrage. Can't help but think many jump on Lets Hate WD bandwagon.

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because whatever was changed in games like saga or skies, it didn't turn into a poop-joke fest for 8 year olds in a serious storyline.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Agreed, lovey game that again was overlooked by the baboons at SOA at the time. Got the nice Edtion that came with the guide

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/964/4...953b2aa3_k.jpg

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Love this game.

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Originally Posted by bultje112

because whatever was changed in games like saga or skies, it didn't turn into a poop-joke fest for 8 year olds in a serious storyline.

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No changing part of the ending of the game isn't a BIG deal at all. I just think the WD hate bandwagon is just like it for Capcom, Call Of Duty and Sonic. People just reading whats said on the internet, going on and repeating it. Its the same deal for VF3 conversion of the DC, when it's all but a perfect version.
What issues did you have with Working Desgin conversions of Iron Storm and Dragon Force on the Saturn?

Tengai Makyou The Apocalypse IV is one of the Saturn exclusives that I'd rather have than the entire Playstation or N64 libraries. I was disappointed at first by the cel animation style battles and the amount of cgi, because of how nice the actual pixelart is throughout the game. Early on it didn't feel very Far East Of Eden'ish, but that changed the further through the game I got.

It was the game that I got my Saturn region switched for, since the disc swap freezes if you use a Mega Key. Initially though, I went back to the store I bought it at for $180 and explained the problem, asking if I could use their Saturn to load my save and play through to the next save spot.

They were happy to oblige and I kept that save as long as I could abd uploaded it to the Netlink game save hub, so that others could make it through to the second disc.

I still have the English manual I made for it.