Nobody is questioning that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
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Nobody is questioning that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Most of the FMV titles were hardly exclusive for one and The Mega CD and the rubbish colour pallet of the Mega CD simply wasn't up to the task of FMV. FMV was a fad and SEGA spent far too much money and time on bringing the games to the Mega CD, rather than traditional games. And SONY chip was there more for Intros rather than games, I mean how many FMV games were there on the PS. If FMV was the be and end all for games and systems then the CDI and PC Eng FX would have cleaned up, there were systems built with FMV games in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by zyrobs
And enhanced ports would have helped, for many Ecco on the Mega CD is the best version of the game and thats thanks to the music alone, never mind when a developer too the time and effort to use the Mega CD extra fuctions above that of the base MD
Still got the MD grude I see. I'm not delusional, when the ASIC chip was used it was way above what the MD could offer not for Mega CD games built for the system, but if one plays both Chuck Rock II on the Base Mega Drive and Mega CD, not only does the Mega CD version sound way better (not hard given the MD sound chip) it also used the ASIC chip for better spot effects like full 360 rotation on the boulders and smooth scailing on the Bird to the 2nd level, Puggsy is another Mega CD game that sounds better but also makes small use of the ASIC chip for better effects on some of the bosses. More games should have used the ASIC chip, its a shame as even the Mega CD Pal title screen is doing stuff the base MD hardware didn't support and what Mode 7 couldn't do .Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
Play the games and see for your self, that ASIC effects were better than base MD effects, may explain why SEGA looked to put in the extra Hardware inside the Mega CD inthe 1st place and also remember than the Mega CD is a SEGA system too:D
Black Tiger was. He made the claim that the SNES needed more space for sound, because it uses samples, when it just wasn't true at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
I guess it depends on the developer. Games like Earthworm Jim, Cool Spot, Rock and Roll Racing, Maui Mallard, etc. They are the same rom size on both consoles. But they are missing sound samples, music tracks (RNRR) on SNES and even levels (EWJ).Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
While sound samples takes more space on the Genny, music tracks eat much more space on SNES, like Barone already explained.
About your SF2 sample, Black Tiger already adressed that, with the uncompressed backgrounds, and cinemas.
You have a source for that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
I recall the TG-16 being dropped to $149 and then $99. I'd never seen it at $75, unless it was being dumped from retail. The Turbo-Duo arrived with a price of $300 and it went nowhere.
Do you live in the world of rose tinted glasses?Quote:
The problem with talking about 16-bit sound samples is that most people never actually listen to them. People tend to compare the voice samples between SFII ports as though they're equal andas though that tells the whole story of sound in general.
The Genesis, PC Engine and arcade all used resl sound clips. The SNES ports, like most SNES games, cut out most of the voice and sound effect samples, then sped up what remained. Pitch shifting the end result only distorted them further. It's like comparing a low quality mp3 of a pro singer to a recording of a drunk kaoroke singer, recorded by a camera that keeps cutting out and the footage is played back at the wrong speed... and then complaining that the original recording sounds scratchy.
SNES games also need to store samples for all the instruments. That's why devs worked so hard to gut and stretch out voice and sound effects and background instruments. From what I've heard about SSFII for Genesis, it's the only 16-bit SFII port with uncompresded backgrounds. Plus it added some exclusive cinematic artwork. SFIISCE added the arcade intro, animated portraits, extra background elements, etc. Nevermind how obvious it is that the Genesis versions weren't developed by people who knew the hardware as well as the SNES teams did their target hardware and the difference in overall polish.
Not all games are directly comparable and the difference between ports of the same game doesn't prove anything, let alone everything.
SFIISCE had missing musical instrument layers and had poor music timing. The SNES game added voice layers and sound that the arcade didn't have. Yes, there is a trumpet that sounds slightly flat in the Guile stage, but it is nowhere near the garbage timing the Genesis music had. The added animated character bios didn't require anything special; it just reused the artwork from the game. There's nothing special about intro either; it's a simple background scroll with a very simple character animation.
The simple fact that most shared ports between the Genesis and SNES had better sound and colors on the SNES isn't just a matter of SNES getting favorable treatment. There were instances like Earthworm Jim being catered towards the Genesis and sounding slightly better, but when it came to the Genesis being asked to do SNES music, things had to be drastically cut.
I think you're just looking at the same thing from different perspectives:Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
- Sound samples on the SNES consume less space since it has ADPCM support.
- SNES ROMs in most cases have more space eaten by sound data then MD's and PCE's.
Both statements are correct.
BT is also correct when he says that cuts/simplification into the samples themselves are more common in SNES games.
Most ports? Fact? I wouldn't be so sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
The opposite is actually closer to be a rule with technical reasoning than what you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
I said better, not more. If you look at the system's most impressive games, or even simply what's worth playing, the list will be pretty heavy on Western stuff. Somewhat subjective but at least I think so. And the games that sold well (relatively speaking) in the US are mostly Western titles, apart from Sonic CD and Lunar.Quote:
Originally Posted by zyrobs
The second statement is not true though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
That's rarely the case. The SNES earned it's reputation for superior sound to the Genesis in most 3rd party games that were brought to both consoles.Quote:
BT is also correct when he says that cuts/simplification into the samples themselves are more common in SNES games.
I'm hard pressed to think of a bunch of Genesis 3rd party games, where the SNES music and sound was superior.Quote:
Most ports? Fact? I wouldn't be so sure.
I believe these videos of Capcom's Super Street Fighter 2 are a good example of everything that has been said. The Genesis version requires 40Mb of cart space, compared to the SNES cart that is only 32Mb.Quote:
The opposite is actually closer to be a rule with technical reasoning than what you said.
What more did they add to the Genesis version that would require 8Mb of additional space? The names being pronounced on the character bio screens. 8Mb for 16 name samples? Holy F!
Then there's the music. The Genesis is barely using 4 channels for the music, and in the case of Dee Jay's stage, it barely uses 3. Meanwhile, the supposed memory hog sample sound chip for the SNES has up to 6 channels dedicated to the music and it sounds way closer to the arcade game than the pitiful showing from the 40Mb Genesis version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls1B1x8ybWA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYU_JR2TpA4
But, I'm not trying to just throw dirt in the face of the Genesis sound chip. SSFII had to cut corners to fit on that 40Mb cart, and the music is what got trimmed. The same could be said for Street Fighter Alpha 2 on the SNES. They really trimmed down the music, since the game had so much sprite data for all of the characters and it all had to fit on a 32Mb cart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_cMvmzNRYQ
Sorry, but you're just completely wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
I think you should read the past technical discussions before jumping into them with poorly pre-conceived ideas.
Again, you're completely wrong. I'd love to see you trying to enforce that notion in a discussion with Gecko and other composers which actually know most of the ins and outs of both sound systems though.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
How many times do we need to tell you that one example alone doesn't prove that what you're claiming is a rule?Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Go check UMK3, NBA Jam games, Flashback, etc. They all counter your premise.
I never said the Genesis couldn't make great sound. I said that it was limited by memory, because it required larger cart space to do samples. Those tracks are awesome.
No I am not. There has never been a case where the same game between the SNES and Genesis required a larger cart for the SNES, because of its sound requiring more space.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
Yeah, those are great examples of the Genesis sound hardware being used properly and not being constrained by cart size. Which was my point about Black Tiger saying that the SNES sound sample hardware was a resource hog. It wasn't.Quote:
How many times do we need to tell you that one example alone doesn't prove that what you're claiming is a rule?
Go check UMK3, NBA Jam games, Flashback, etc. They all counter your premise.
But hey, let's turn out heads over to one of your favorites, the PlayStation. Would you not agree that it had an advantage over the Saturn, because it could use compressed sound files, while the Saturn couldn't?
I hope you weren't trying to suggest that the Genesis version of RNR Racing was superior.Quote:
Originally Posted by saturndual32
You're also looking at 8 sound channels for the SNES vs. 6 for the Genesis. And usually, the SNES is pumping out music on more channels than the Genesis without using more cart space. ADPCM can use samples as small as 4 bit, which gives it a huge advantage, especially since all of the sound files are compressed.
You're talking about 4Mb of data. That's bigger than a majority of the launch titles for the Genesis and SNES.Quote:
About your SF2 sample, Black Tiger already adressed that, with the uncompressed backgrounds, and cinemas.
I think you're missing the point Gamevet.
The issue with cart space for audio between the two systems comes down to this. The Genesis uses FM Synth and PSG as the bulk of it's sounds, with PCM there for drums and a few sound effects. As a result it doesn't need to use a whole lot of cart space for samples most of the time as most of it's sounds are just a few parameters to put into it's sound chips (yes I'm simplifying things severely but it gets the point across) with samples reserved for a few instruments and sound effects.
The SNES on the other hand is entirely sample based. Every sound it makes has to come from some form of ADPCM sample. Not just sound effects but every instrument used in it's music. This usually results in poor quality samples, lack of instrument variety, or both to get things to fit on the cart. Then some of your more elaborate sounding games like your JRPGs typically have quite a bit of cart space dedicated to sound samples. This isn't really the case for similar Genesis games.
As a result the sample quality in many Genesis games is actually higher than in a lot of SNES games as it's not as you don't have to worry about as many samples for all your sounds. Now sample playback is another story entirely and Street Fighter II is proof of that. The samples are actually quite nice on the Genesis for what they are and are better quality than the SNES version. The sound driver just butchers them during playback. The fixed Rom Hack by Stef is proof of that.
And if you want to get into number of channels the Genesis technically has 10 channels. 5 FM synth, 1 FM/PCM, 3 Square Waves, and 1 White Noise generator. Many games make full use of them.
While it is a disadvantage, it's clearly not too damning as plenty of games sound as good if not better than their PS1 counter parts. I'd say the better features of the Saturn chip can make it really shine above then PS1 when used well. And towards the end we were getting more games using ADPCM streams and things like ADX encoding which made that issue pretty much invalid:Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N256nxeE-YM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqXEsXpXvec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5CRoCqSUR4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df5JD0-P3gM
Flashback is only 12 megabits on the Genesis and 16 megabits on the SNES. And didn't Mickey Mania have a bunch of cuts?Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
I'm certainly not hearing that with Super Street Fighter II, where it has a bigger variety of instruments than the Genesis version that is a totally stripped down version of the arcade game, when it comes to sound tracks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Yeah, he also has one for Super Street Fighter II. I'm certainly not hearing an advantage here though.Quote:
As a result the sample quality in many Genesis games is actually higher than in a lot of SNES games as it's not as you don't have to worry about as many samples for all your sounds. Now sample playback is another story entirely and Street Fighter II is proof of that. The samples are actually quite nice on the Genesis for what they are and are better quality than the SNES version. The sound driver just butchers them during playback. The fixed Rom Hack by Stef is proof of that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hvp6IoTvfI
I'm curious to know what those titles are. The best sounding stuff on the Genesis for me was from Technosoft, the Streets of Rage Series and Sonic the Hedgehog.Quote:
And if you want to get into number of channels the Genesis technically has 10 channels. 5 FM synth, 1 FM/PCM, 3 Square Waves, and 1 White Noise generator. Many games make full use of them.
It was a disadvantage in Capcom fighters. The voice samples had to be reduced, because the Saturn sound memory was maxed out, compared to the PlayStation with its use of sound compression.Quote:
While it is a disadvantage, it's clearly not too damning as plenty of games sound as good if not better than their PS1 counter parts. I'd say the better features of the Saturn chip can make it really shine above then PS1 when used well. And towards the end we were getting more games using ADPCM streams and things like ADX encoding which made that issue pretty much invalid: