Saturn > SNES

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03-02-2018, 12:09 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

Why are you quoting some morons from another forum?

NESDEV is a homebrew forum where quite a bit of technical discussions happen, and most participating know what they're talking about. Think of it as an NES centric version of the spritesmind forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

The Saturn version has the sound all kinds of jacked up, but I'm pretty sure that the Saturn hardware had nothing to do with why it is that way.

The Saturn versions of what exactly? Street Fighter 2? As we know it can't do compressed samples so that probably hurts the voice and sound effect quality. However Capcom took an extremely lazy route with both the Saturn and PS1 ports of Street Fighter II and Super Street Fighter II. They used CD Audio. As a result there's a slight pause between the main track and the low health variant due to CD seeking time. Also the tracks don't loop. While this is rarely an issue as a match should end before this, if it goes long it will happen. And in Super Street Fighter II it's more prone to happen since the music from round one continues playing into round 2.

Which reminds me, that is one area where Super Street Fighter II's audio is better than the SNES. The music from Round 1 continues playing into Round 2 just like the arcade. Meanwhile on the SNES it stops and restarts in between each round.
03-02-2018, 12:11 PM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I'm sorry but that track sounds like shit compared to anything in Mega Turrican if you ask me.

No need it's not on the MD, its a given. ;)

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That too me screams incompetence.

I just wouldn't agree, when Capcom made the best version of the game on the MD at the time and a game that was leaps and bounds over SEGA effort for Gfx and sound imo.

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The CPS1, X68000, and Sega Y Board all use the exact same kind of audio set up.

No there do not. SEGA Boards also had a PCM sound chip thrown into the mix running really fast too. SEGA always made boards way in Adv of what Capcom produced. SEGA were and are the best in the Arcades even to this day
03-02-2018, 12:11 PM
sull56ivan2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

Why are you quoting some morons from another forum?

The Saturn version has the sound all kinds of jacked up, but I'm pretty sure that the Saturn hardware had nothing to do with why it is that way.

Because Barone hates to lose an argument to Andromeda, and Andromeda keeps spouting off random stuff to get a point across poorly.
03-02-2018, 12:18 PM
Barone

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

Why are you quoting some morons from another forum?

Morons? They're actually developers and composers. Lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

The Saturn version has the sound all kinds of jacked up, but I'm pretty sure that the Saturn hardware had nothing to do with why it is that way.

It's not like the lack of audio compression support would make any difference in a game like that, right???!!!
It's also a coincidence that the PS1 version features far more samples than the Saturn's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I think it's not only one of the best MD games ever made, but also one of the best sounding

It's certainly one with the worst audio quality in the entire library:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barone

While the compositions are good, most of the tracks have their instruments limited to a short frequency range.
Maybe "compressed" would've been a better term, IDK. Have a look:

Revenge of Shinobi

http://i.imgur.com/5fAYoo4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mz8MJXM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tW3kqfj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LYzKrgJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PbVvneY.jpg

Shinobi III

http://i.imgur.com/7vv7GOg.png
http://i.imgur.com/f09CrGK.png
http://i.imgur.com/ScYK5Zn.png
http://i.imgur.com/gsL1TTx.png
http://i.imgur.com/6q58ue2.jpg

Shinobi III tracks are also longer and have far better stereo panning.
03-02-2018, 12:21 PM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barone

Morons? They're actually developers and composers. Lol

So are Capcom, but never mind.

Quote:

It's certainly ones with the worst audio quality in the entire library:

Music is subjective. To me the music is better.
03-02-2018, 12:29 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

No need it's not on the MD, its a given.

Yet I posted examples of Amiga music I like and found to be better examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I just wouldn't agree, when Capcom made the best version of the game on the MD at the time and a game that was leaps and bounds over SEGA effort for Gfx and sound imo.

None of that has anything to do with how poorly coded the game is and how it's quick and dirty port of the SNES version. None of that has anything to do with the fact the sound driver isn't coded to properly handle DMA which when coupled with the incompetent code that DMAs everything twice has a direct impact on the Sample Playback quality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

No there do not. SEGA Boards also had a PCM sound chip thrown into the mix running really fast too. SEGA always made boards way in Adv of what Capcom produced. SEGA were and are the best in the Arcades even to this day

All three rely on a YM2151 to pull off the bulk of their music. The CPS1 has an OKI6295 adpcm chip that can play 4 adpcm channels which is more than enough for drums, voices, and sound effects used in most CPS1 games. The X68000 has a Yamaha YM3012 which is a DAC with 2-channel output as well as an OKI MSM6258 for 1 ADPCM channel. Both have ability to do samples just fine. Sega's PCM chip may do more PCM channels, but I've seen no evidence the tracks you've posted are using them for more than drums.

Need Proof? Here's Super Hang On for the X68000:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFQcHHdhbFA

Notice how the track sounds almost the same as the arcade one you posted earlier. And the only reason I say almost is becuase it's in a slightly different key than the arcade version. The Instrumentation is identical.
03-02-2018, 12:29 PM
bultje112

Quote:

Originally Posted by SegataS

No one is fucking talking about Neo Geo or 3D0 so shut up.

seriously, but what banned person were you previously? you're on this forum for 1 week and behaving like this?
03-02-2018, 12:40 PM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

All three rely on a YM2151 to pull off the bulk of their music

For the FM stuff, yeah But good old SEGA knew that wasn't enough and added a PCM chip in the mix too.

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None of that has anything to do with how poorly coded the game is and how it's quick and dirty port of the SNES version

I don't think it was and C'Mon most corps would try the quick and easy port back inthe day, maybe thats why so many of EA stuff was crap on the Snes or maybe it could also becasue the Snes CPU was crap.

Quote:

Need Proof? Here's Super Hang On for the X68000:

Sound crap, not a patch on the Arcade and even Sharp knew that had issues how many add on Sound boards did the 68000 have. There's a reason why SEGA added in a extra PCM channel and why SEGA Arcade games sounded better. SNK games had ace music too.

Quote:

They used CD Audio. As a result there's a slight pause between the main track and the low health variant due to CD seeking time

Really, Have you played the Capcom Gen 5 version on the Saturn ?
03-02-2018, 12:58 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

For the FM stuff, yeah But good old SEGA knew that wasn't enough and added a PCM chip in the mix too.

Did you even read all of what I said? The X68000 and CPS1 have additional chips for ADPCM samples as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I don't think it was and C'Mon most corps would try the quick and easy port back inthe day, maybe thats why so many of EA stuff was crap on the Snes or maybe it could also becasue the Snes CPU was crap.

Its very obvious it's a quick and dirty port. It's running at the same 256x224 resolution of the SNES version in a letterbox. If it was a proper conversion it would probably be running at 320x224 just like the previous CPS1 conversions done by Sega themselves. The same frames of animations are missing, the same cuts are made, etc. It's a quick port of the SNES version.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Sound crap, not a patch on the Arcade and even Sharp knew that had issues how many add on Sound boards did the 68000 have. There's a reason why SEGA added in a extra PCM channel and why SEGA Arcade games sounded better. SNK games had ace music too.

They sound virtually the same and you know it you tone deaf moron.

As for additional sound boards, maybe Sharp had those because the X68000 was first and foremost a home computer and all other competing home computers had that capability as well? While a YM2151 + ADPCM is fine for arcade games of the time, most computer games at the time were really pushing into using things like the Roland MT-32. But that's not at all what we're talking about here. We're comparing a Sega Arcade board to the Sharp X68000, and in that sense the Sharp X68000 is more than capable of replicating the sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Really, Have you played the Capcom Gen 5 version on the Saturn ?

My bad, I was thinking of Super Street Fighter II. Capcom Gen 5 doesn't use CD Audio but Au formatted .SND files. You can play them in your computer. It's still the same concept, instead of actual chip tunes they recorded the arcade board and played it back. You can still here a distinct pause to load in the new file when the game transitions tracks though as shown in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvsrioLQ5LE

Listen around the 2:54 mark.
03-02-2018, 01:07 PM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Did you even read all of what I said? The X68000 and CPS1 have additional chips for ADPCM samples as well.

I do , but overlooking SEGA had the better ones, if FM was so wonderful like you say with the MD, why the need for additional sound chips even.

Quote:

It's running at the same 256x224 resolution of the SNES version in a letterbox.

Or maybe that was just the best they could do inthe time frame. It not like it wasn't a looker or outdid SEGA America own effort with EC . I don't get the hate, it was a brilliant port for me, far better than the Snes version.

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maybe Sharp had those because the X68000 was first and foremost a home computer and all other competing home computers had that capability as well

Or maybe they needed to offer better sound. I rathered the Fm Towns Marty for sound too other the Sharp from playing in my import store.

Quote:

My bad, I was thinking of Super Street Fighter II

Fair enough.
03-02-2018, 01:21 PM
gamevet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barone

Morons? They're actually developers and composers. Lol.

It's the internet. Everyone claims to be something they aren't. There's plenty of examples of other games that go against that silly nonsense.

Quote:

It's not like the lack of audio compression support would make any difference in a game like that, right???!!!
It's also a coincidence that the PS1 version features far more samples than the Saturn's.

It's just a shitty port, like MKII was. There isn't enough sound going on in that game to fill up 512K of the Saturn's audio memory. Did you really try to pull that crap? And yes, I did own both versions of the game.
03-02-2018, 01:29 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I do , but overlooking SEGA had the better ones, if FM was so wonderful like you say with the MD, why the need for additional sound chips even.

Did I say FM was good enough for everything? No. There's a reason why most people on PCs wanted a sound blaster and not just a plain old Adlib card. FM is fine for the music, but for things like Voices and sound effects you need a bit more. Drums also tend to do better on PCM. Which is why most arcade boards, not just Segas, combined the two. Even the Genesis does it.

All that aside, can you point out anywhere in that Super Hang On clip where the music sounds like it's lacking to the arcade version? That track is mostly all FM synth with just a PCM drums being used.

Also here's some fun I did, I downloaded the VGM and played with it in the vgm plugin for winamp where you can disable chips and channels. And as I expected the bulk of the track is on the YM2151 only drums are on the PCM chip. Now it is using multiple channels, but rarely are they all playing exactly at the same time. Careful timing on a DAC or working with less channels would still be able to pull it off. Which sounds exactly like what was done with the X68000 port.

The same is true with just about any Y board vgm I'm throwing at it. And yes, I did try Galaxy Force II as well. Galaxy Force II does have a guitar, but again you could probably pull that off with the CPS1's set up as well as the Sharp X68000 if you knew what you were doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Or maybe that was just the best they could do inthe time frame. It not like it wasn't a looker or outdid SEGA America own effort with EC . I don't get the hate, it was a brilliant port for me, far better than the Snes version.

Or it's a quick and dirty port. It get's hated on because of that and because it could have been much better. There's so many technical flaws in it that can only be attributed to incompetence and an overall rush job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Or maybe they needed to offer better sound. I rathered the Fm Towns Marty for sound too other the Sharp from playing in my import store.

Or it's that it was a computer and expandability was the norm and was expected? If you look Sharp themselves didn't offer most of those sound boards, they were from third parties to allow hooking up Midi modules from companies like Roland and Yamaha. Which let's face it those blow just about any other system out of the water. Bringing those up will just end the debate as they're superior to just about any other system of the time.

They weren't there because sharp was desperate to make their system sound better as you're trying to imply. They were there because they were common MIDI modules that were used for things other than just games at the time. The Sharp X68000 was a computer first and foremost and if people were doing music work on it, they needed to be able to hook up their MIDI modules. Using those for games was just a happy side effect just as it was on IBM PCs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

There isn't enough sound going on in that game to fill up 512K of the Saturn's audio memory. Did you really try to pull that crap? And yes, I did own both versions of the game.

When you use pre-recorded files of the arcades entire sound track instead of going the chip tune route you bet your ass there's enough to fill up all 512K. You need to reserve some space in RAM for streaming that data as well as use space for your engine that's doing that streaming. Then you have even less space available for your voice samples.
03-02-2018, 01:45 PM
BonusKun

I'm keeping an eye on this thread now. As long as you guys can talk like adults and be reasonable, I'll not do anything.

P.S. Try and bring it back on topic too please ladies.
03-02-2018, 01:58 PM
Barone

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

It's the internet. Everyone claims to be something they aren't. There's plenty of examples of other games that go against that silly nonsense.

You have no idea who those guys are and yet you're calling them morons.
You've made some pretty uneducated claims in this subject and yet it's their technical discussion which is silly nonsense.

Sounds about right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

It's just a shitty port, like MKII was.

Yes, it is a shitty port. But guess who brought it up? You.
And why you did that? Because you're desperately trying to invalidate my arguments.

Both MD and SNES versions were released at the end of their life cycles and they were developed by Sculptured Software which knew both platforms quite well and it's usually regarded as a good developer.
That example is as valid as it can be, however, since it didn't fit your poor agenda you just had to try to knock it somehow.

On the other hand, you used the same two examples from Capcom the entire thread and your claims were debunked time and time again.
Talk about some silly nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

There isn't enough sound going on in that game to fill up 512K of the Saturn's audio memory. Did you really try to pull that crap? And yes, I did own both versions of the game.

You own a lot of stuff, yes, but it says nothing about your knowledge.
03-02-2018, 02:00 PM
gamevet

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

When you use pre-recorded files of the arcades entire sound track instead of going the chip tune route you bet your ass there's enough to fill up all 512K. You need to reserve some space in RAM for streaming that data as well as use space for your engine that's doing that streaming. Then you have even less space available for your voice samples.

Dude, seriously, have you played the game?

There's hardly any music during the matches, and what's there is just little ta da stuff. It's nothing close to the likes of UMK3, which is a pretty rock solid game.

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