Do we all agree that retro consoles quirks and limitations add flavor to nostalgia?

I think it's what makes those consoles special.

The most obvious example is chiptune music. From SID and NES chips, to Genesis Yamaha YM2612 they had that special sound that we love. You know, as kids we all probably wanted our consoles to sound like real music instruments but later we all started to appreciate that sound. Chiptune music even became mainstream. The thing that is flawed and limited at it's core is loved by many.

Other examples are my personal favorites:

NES color palette is very limited but I really love the look of later NES games that work around this limit by having some nice gradients and highlights. Like these examples:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._%28NES%29.png http://vekonline.ru/wp-content/uploa...-of-Doom-1.png

I kinda feel nostalgic for SNES mosaic effect that was used in like every SNES game ever. I dunno why, it's a silly effect but it adds a flavor to SNES games.

I love how some Genesis games, like Sonic games or Phantasy Star II make the fade out effect for screens with blue hues. I am pretty sure it was made this way due to a limited color pallette, but it looks very cool.

I love how many PS1 games use pastel colored gradients in their graphics:
Attachment 14170

I think starting with N64 and into the 6th generarion, consoles started losing these special flavours. They all started to have standard PC 3D accelerated looking graphics with various degrees of compromise - things like blurry textures and bilinear/trilinear-with-no-anisotropy filtering I have zero nostalgia about. 7th gen consoles had yellowish bloom which might be a special thing of that era, but it is also horrible.

What do you think? Do you have any examples too?

Not limited to retro. We have limitations today, they’re just different. Limitation breeds creativity.

I was thinking about this before whilst considering jailbars on the MD. I get that folks want rid of them, but to me they add to the console's flavour.

Of course. Another example is the colors on the Sega Saturn.

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Originally Posted by Thief

Of course. Another example is the colors on the Sega Saturn.

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Hey, I've just started my Saturn collection and never had my own back then. I remember only playing VF2 and SF Alpha 2 and my friends house. What do you mean by "Saturn colors"? Any nice example? Do you mean Sega 90's trademark style with prominent blue skies in their games, that started with Model 1 and continued into Dreamcast era?

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Originally Posted by Orchid87

I think it's what makes those consoles special.

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That's part of it, but also one needs to look at growing up with the consoles or old systems, will makes them seem a lot more special too; I love the ZX Spectrum is was my 1st gaming machine, but no way you I put up with its dreadful load times.
But I look back with complete fondness of the Spectrum loading screens and the rubbish music from Manic Minner.


I do really miss that lovely shimmer effect one got from Arcade and Home games when games were using Hardware Scaling and Rotation effects and I also miss that lovely shimmer effect for Saturn games using the Saturns High Res mode. Virtual On title screen used to burns one eye's. Nothing to do with GFX or sound, but I also miss how special it was when you saw and heard a game for the 1st time too. Now with the internet and youtube one can see and hear how good a game is, long before it ships... Not ammount of screen shots could ever perpare one for how good Sonic looked and moved on the MD or how bloody amazing Panzer Dragoon looked and sounded back in the day.

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Originally Posted by Thief

Of course. Another example is the colors on the Sega Saturn.

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what's weird about them?

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I love the ZX Spectrum is was my 1st gaming machine, but no way you I put up with its dreadful load times.
But I look back with complete fondness of the Spectrum loading screens and the rubbish music from Manic Minner.

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Oh yeah, Manic Miner and Jet Set Willy!
I am too nostalgic for Spectrum loading screens and sounds, also I kinda like color clash and overall Speccy palette. Although I hate when any color, other than black, is used for the backgrounds.

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Originally Posted by Orchid87

Oh yeah, Manic Miner and Jet Set Willy!
I am too nostalgic for Spectrum loading screens and sounds, also I kinda like color clash and overall Speccy palette. Although I hate when any color, other than black, is used for the backgrounds.

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Yeah, fab. When I hear that loading screen sound, it brings back so many happy memories and a ton of nostalgia. I also love the colour clash and that vivid crisp display of the Spectrum 2D art. Love the system. Gift from the Gods is one of my all time fav games to this very day, so many Happy memories of playing that game in Chrismas 84 and Manic Minner music is so good is on my phone as of my ringtones lol

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Originally Posted by Orchid87

Hey, I've just started my Saturn collection and never had my own back then. I remember only playing VF2 and SF Alpha 2 and my friends house. What do you mean by "Saturn colors"? Any nice example? Do you mean Sega 90's trademark style with prominent blue skies in their games, that started with Model 1 and continued into Dreamcast era?

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Meant textures on polygons. Can easily start spotting this when comparing ports on both PS1 and Saturn, you'll notice the texture colors don't match. Anyway, when graphics where done right on the Saturn, this quirk really added to a more unique and pleasant graphical look on exclusives or games that debuted on the Saturn.

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Originally Posted by Blades

Not limited to retro. We have limitations today, they’re just different. Limitation breeds creativity.

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I agree for the most part. PS4/XBO are pretty much the same. You may see a difference in frame rate or resolution but not much else. Back then it was sound and color palette size of sprites and such. Devs had to be more creative with the hardware and made for some really unique experiences. People still debate Aladdin SNES vs Aladdin Genesis. I love the PS4 and realize were are not in the 90s anymore. Only 1 of the 3 systems is truly different but it's still kinda the same thing. Oh, a port of Doom. Mainly lower resolution game with a different framerate. Although yes it does make them more creative to fit the game on the limited hardware. In one sense I'm glad everyone gets relatively the same game but in another yeah maybe it is nostalgia missing when each version was unique and kinda made me want to own more systems even for 3rd party games, not just exclusives.


SNES, Genesis, and TurboGrax16 all offered a unique library form one another. Genesis was largely the Action Games and Sports games system. SNES was largely your RPG and Platformer system. TG16 Was mostly Hudson games and smaller lesser known stuff. I guess that's sorta the case this gen but not to the same extent. Xbox One doesn't get the Japanese support Switch and PS4 get, PS4 has the extra benefit of getting the larger Japanese games as well Xbox One and Switch don't get. Western 3rd party PS4 and Xbox One get pretty much the same games and Switch will only get a trickle of them. The Switch is getting the kind of games Vita was getting.

So I guess it's sorta there but not the same. I don't think in 25 years people will be debating sound chips or graphics of PS4 and Xbox like we still see of SNES Vs Genesis.

I think we should separate the idea of developers creatively working within the design limitations of a console, and bad/inexperienced developers who did a half-assed job. I have little-to-no nostalgia for the poorly done 16-bit ports, for example, since they were often not done with the limitations of the console in mind, but rather as if the limitations couldn't or didn't need to be considered (at least in terms of things like color).

^This.

Classic consoles and portables stand apart from most other gaming, because their unique limitations led to a variety of results in games which overall create a distinct artist voice. As console hardware began advancing beyond 240p and the pixelart/chip sound era, the charm of those results saw diminishing returns.

This is why classic arcade hardware which saw enough game releases is more endearing than one-offs. System-16, CPS and Neo Geo gain additional charm and nostalgia from libraries which provide a range of aesthetics that overall form a signature feel.

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Originally Posted by Orchid87

I think it's what makes those consoles special.

The most obvious example is chiptune music. From SID and NES chips, to Genesis Yamaha YM2612 they had that special sound that we love. You know, as kids we all probably wanted our consoles to sound like real music instruments but later we all started to appreciate that sound. Chiptune music even became mainstream. The thing that is flawed and limited at it's core is loved by many.

Other examples are my personal favorites:

NES color palette is very limited but I really love the look of later NES games that work around this limit by having some nice gradients and highlights. Like these examples:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._%28NES%29.png http://vekonline.ru/wp-content/uploa...-of-Doom-1.png

I kinda feel nostalgic for SNES mosaic effect that was used in like every SNES game ever. I dunno why, it's a silly effect but it adds a flavor to SNES games.

I love how some Genesis games, like Sonic games or Phantasy Star II make the fade out effect for screens with blue hues. I am pretty sure it was made this way due to a limited color pallette, but it looks very cool.

I love how many PS1 games use pastel colored gradients in their graphics:
Attachment 14170

I think starting with N64 and into the 6th generarion, consoles started losing these special flavours. They all started to have standard PC 3D accelerated looking graphics with various degrees of compromise - things like blurry textures and bilinear/trilinear-with-no-anisotropy filtering I have zero nostalgia about. 7th gen consoles had yellowish bloom which might be a special thing of that era, but it is also horrible.

What do you think? Do you have any examples too?

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Exactly! When people who grew up with the blurred textures, or yellowish bloom, as artifacts of their gaming era, they will appreciate them. But, is the appreciation justified? Like say, the Speccy. Having not grown up with it, it has zero appeal to me in its style, unlike some other systems that I didn’t grow up with like the NES. What sorts of distinctive limitations will stand the test of time, and which ones will not?

How about this for a quirk. Turning this;

http://www.retrogames.cz/games/068/NES_01.gif

Into this;

http://images.nintendolife.com/news/...1/original.jpg

With just our then childhood imagination.

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Originally Posted by Thief

How about this for a quirk. Turning this;

http://www.retrogames.cz/games/068/NES_01.gif

Into this;

http://images.nintendolife.com/news/...1/original.jpg

With just our then childhood imagination.

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I was so disappointed when I confirmed that those pics weren't from a real promotional cartoon. But not nearly as disappointed as when I first saw the terrible Zelda show that actually got made.

At least it finally became a reality.

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Originally Posted by SegataS

https://i.imgur.com/k6YmLdl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/QoKgcwv.jpg

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

But not nearly as disappointed as when I first saw the terrible Zelda show that actually got made.

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But as an adult you had the chance to see "The Legend of Neil" - while sometimes (well often to be honest) crude, it was an often funny parody of the Zelda games.

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Originally Posted by SegataS

TG16 Was mostly Hudson games and smaller lesser known stuff.

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For me, PC Engine is a SHMUPS and other arcade ports system. R-Type, Ninja Spirit and a better version of Raiden are enough to make the console worth owning. Kinda sad that unless it's Sega game, or the port was reprogrammed by Sega, early arcade ports on Megadrive were usually worse than on PCE.

Edit: how could I forget about Nectaris? My favorite PCE game!

This is one reason that I dont give 2 fucks about current console wars. It was so fun when hardware manufactures use to make there own graphic chips rather than contract a PC company such as AMD or Nvidia. You could always tell the differences between Genesis, SNES and PCE games. They all had a very distinct flavor to them. Now days this game runs at a different frame rate or resolution is about the only difference there is today.

Eh... kind of. Part of it is also the deep love affairs some have for some of the games of their eras.

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Originally Posted by Orchid87

For me, PC Engine is a SHMUPS and other arcade ports system. R-Type, Ninja Spirit and a better version of Raiden are enough to make the console worth owning. Kinda sad that unless it's Sega game, or the port was reprogrammed by Sega, early arcade ports on Megadrive were usually worse than on PCE.

Edit: how could I forget about Nectaris? My favorite PCE game!

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Galaga '90

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

This is one reason that I dont give 2 fucks about current console wars. It was so fun when hardware manufactures use to make there own graphic chips rather than contract a PC company such as AMD or Nvidia. You could always tell the differences between Genesis, SNES and PCE games. They all had a very distinct flavor to them. Now days this game runs at a different frame rate or resolution is about the only difference there is today.

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They are nothing more than under-powered PCs. The only reason I have the PS4, is because of Sony's exclusives.

I didn't grow up with the Speccy but I've become quite fond of it over the years, despite it pretty much having the worst graphics out of anything ever that was in any way popular. (Even the Intellivision and Atari 2600 have some tradeoffs where they're better).

Seeing the clever ways homebrew developers use the hardware warms my heart. Even back in the day some devs did some pretty ingenious things.
However this also means I have 0 nostalgia (or even much appreciation) for good games that don't make interesting use of the hardware.

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

This is one reason that I dont give 2 fucks about current console wars. It was so fun when hardware manufactures use to make there own graphic chips rather than contract a PC company such as AMD or Nvidia. .

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I don't agree, SEGA never used to make its own CPUs or GPUs most of the time and it never mattered to me, one could say the OG XBox was just a PC , Model 3 also using PC tech but it didn't matter when you had games like JSRF, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Gunvalkyrie or VF 3 and SR II in the Arcades. I loved the DC even its GPU is all thanks to PC tech. Also while people can complain that theres little difference between the consoles these days that is a good thing when it comes to 3rd party games and we are no longer seeing the vast differences in ports like with the Snes VS MD or Saturn VS PS. I do miss the days of games pushing a hardware to its limits though and a game only being able to be really possible on a particular piece of hardware though...

But I don't get the hate this gen gets when there are not only great games but also great exclusives for each system

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

This is one reason that I dont give 2 fucks about current console wars. It was so fun when hardware manufactures use to make there own graphic chips rather than contract a PC company such as AMD or Nvidia. You could always tell the differences between Genesis, SNES and PCE games. They all had a very distinct flavor to them. Now days this game runs at a different frame rate or resolution is about the only difference there is today.

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Many times this. It's the reason I'm with PC master race now. I don't really care about current gen consoles that much. If there was no Bloodborne, I'd sold my PS4 already.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Galaga '90

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Love it!

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I don't agree, SEGA never used to make its own CPUs or GPUs most of the time and it never mattered to me, one could say the OG XBox was just a PC , Model 3 also using PC tech but it didn't matter when you had games like JSRF, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Gunvalkyrie or VF 3 and SR II in the Arcades. I loved the DC even its GPU is all thanks to PC tech. Also while people can complain that theres little difference between the consoles these days that is a good thing when it comes to 3rd party games and we are no longer seeing the vast differences in ports like with the Snes VS MD or Saturn VS PS. I do miss the days of games pushing a hardware to its limits though and a game only being able to be really possible on a particular piece of hardware though...

But I don't get the hate this gen gets when there are not only great games but also great exclusives for each system

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Dreamcast and OG Xbox games didn't have the distinct look of previous console generations. As I said before - N64 is where everything started to look like PC games.

I'd love to get into PC gaming if it weren't for three things...

1) Time: Too many complications in this particular rabbit hole that I just can't get into. I love tweaking, changing fine tuning and altering too much, I'd just not find the time for it all nowadays.

2) I just love consoles as objects, they just look great to me and when they are lined up in a row it makes me happy to see them. There are some iconic designs from Atari and Sony that I love. MD is best, obvs.

3) My PS3 is outdated now, but it still looks good for graphics and there are some great games; frame rates and higher definitions don't grind my gears too much so I can look past all that. GTA V looks great, I know it looks better elsewhere but it's still a fab experience here too. There can be too much of an upgrade race, it's satisfying to buy an object to use and enjoy without looking around the corner all the time, companies just want you to buy the new machine every year or two.

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Originally Posted by Orchid87

Dreamcast and OG Xbox games didn't have the distinct look of previous console generations. As I said before - N64 is where everything started to look like PC games.

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Really ? I thought most N64 games looked like crap and nothing to PC games, but a lot of DC games had that 3DFX look to them and back then it was seen as a good thing to be close to the PC with Windows CE and trying to get more of the PC good games on the consoles. The SEGA Rally II port was cripppled thanks to Windows CE ;)

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Really ? I thought most N64 games looked like crap and nothing to PC games

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If you ever saw first generation 1996 3dfx Voodoo graphics, you'd notice that they look like n64, except higher resolution and better textures. Dreamcast was quite a bit better. I'd say it was on par with circa 1998 Riva TNT graphics. Not in rough performance numbers, mind you, because I never tried to compare that, but in what games actually looked like. Quake 3 Arena is a good indicator. No way a 1996 PC or N64 could run it at the same image quality Dreamcast version has.

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Originally Posted by Orchid87

If you ever saw first generation 1996 3dfx Voodoo graphics, you'd notice that they look like n64, except higher resolution and better textures. Dreamcast was quite a bit better. I'd say it was on par with circa 1998 Riva TNT graphics. Not in rough performance numbers, mind you, because I never tried to compare that, but in what games actually looked like. Quake 3 Arena is a good indicator. No way a 1996 PC or N64 could run it at the same image quality Dreamcast version has.

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I always thought for most of the time, the N64 was behind that of the Saturn and PS, never mind a PC. When I play Grandia II on the DC it gave me that PC look to it, so did many DC games like SEGA Rally II, SEGA GT . Its never bothered me tbh

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I always thought for most of the time, the N64 was behind that of the Saturn and PS, never mind a PC. When I play Grandia II on the DC it gave me that PC look to it, so did many DC games like SEGA Rally II, SEGA GT . Its never bothered me tbh

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Wasn't Sega Rally II for DC a port of the PC version? Recall reading this in EGM. Really turned me off when I read this as a fan of the original Sega Rally, as something more custom tailored to the DC hardware seemed better.

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Originally Posted by Thief

Wasn't Sega Rally II for DC a port of the PC version? Recall reading this in EGM. Really turned me off when I read this as a fan of the original Sega Rally, as something more custom tailored to the DC hardware seemed better.

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It was handled by Smilebit who was SEGA's PC division at the time and was using the upcoming SEGA Rally II PC game as a base and so used Win CE to help with the port, but I read an interview with Smilebit, who said another reason they also used Win CE was to help with the network side too, SR II was the 1st DC game to feature head to head online play (sadly taken out of the Pal version, not sure about the US)
Shame though, using Win CE meant we never got to see the full performance on the system and must have held back the DC port on a visual level.

Don't care what anyone says, love that you're a walking talking gaming magazine encyclopedia.

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Originally Posted by cleeg

I'd love to get into PC gaming if it weren't for three things...



3) My PS3 is outdated now, but it still looks good for graphics and there are some great games; frame rates and higher definitions don't grind my gears too much so I can look past all that. GTA V looks great, I know it looks better elsewhere but it's still a fab experience here too. There can be too much of an upgrade race, it's satisfying to buy an object to use and enjoy without looking around the corner all the time, companies just want you to buy the new machine every year or two.

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The PS4 version looks miles better, but nowhere near how badass the PC version is running @60FPS, and with the right monitor, over 100 fps.



This isn't even my current rig, that runs the game at 1440p @ 144Hz.

gta 5 should be upgraded with vr support.

Everybody would be at the strip club.

I already started being nostalgic about 7th-generation yellow bloom. It provided a good, beautiful effect of it was used well. Mushroomy Kingdom was probably the best example. Also, the aesthetic used in forgotten Wii-era franchises like Mushroom Men and Deadly Creatures could be tried again.

This is why I enjoy retro hardwares more, 4th and 5th gen hardwares in particular. More distinctive, more character and even the games were more creative and thus more unique.

When it comes to being distinctive, the must are the likes of the ZX Spectrum, C64, NES, Master System, PC Engine or Mega Drive. And in some ways, the SNES, Mega-CD, Saturn and N64 too.

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Originally Posted by Orchid87

For me, PC Engine is a SHMUPS and other arcade ports system

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The amount of shoot 'em ups on PC Engine is not a good sign actually.

This tends to reveal that the system is not well suited to handle more demanding games such as run 'n guns or beat 'em ups.

Also while the PC Engine has tons of shooters, many of them are mediocre and/or better on other systems.

Overall I think that the PC Engine shooter library is overrated and I feel the same about the Saturn.

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Kinda sad that unless it's Sega game, or the port was reprogrammed by Sega, early arcade ports on Megadrive were usually worse than on PCE.

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Actually there are a few Sega games which are as good if not better on PC Engine. Bonanza Bros for instance. But it's only due to laziness and/or restricted ROM size for the time vs later released PC Engine CD games.

And otherwise no, games from other developers than Sega were also usually better on Mega Drive, even early on. Examples such as Hellfire, Volfied, Atomic Robo-Kid or Darius II.

I love the unique sound of every sound chip of the 16-bit generation. Turbo, Genesis & SNES. They invoke a different type of happiness. Genesis bass often gets me hyped. SNES I want to sit back, close my eyes and just listen. Nothing gets me more than hearing Ys 1 intro on Turbo. Music is a huge part of games for me/ It's half the enjoyment for me. A perfect example of this from the era is Ninja Warriors vs Ninja Warriors Again. I prefer the arcade because the music is so damn good. Again I feel plays a little better but I can't remember the music at all. Assault Suit Leynos I love the music more than Cybernator. Now give me two different games in the game genre with great music on each side. Ys III on Genesis vs FFVI on SNES. Both invoke a special feeling that each soundchip is only able to deliver.

Aaaaand ended up going through this whole thread out of boredom :​v

When I saw "Saturn colors" for a moment I was wondering if it was going to be about lighting. See, Saturn does lighting different than most GPUs do, in that instead of multiplying the base color against the light color, the latter is added/substracted (note that while GPUs can do additive blending, in Saturn's case it's both additive and substractive). That results in some very distinctive shades, it becomes very obvious when comparing Sonic R on Saturn and on PC. This is also obvious on games that came out on both PS1 and Saturn (e.g. Resident Evil).

Also I'd argue Dreamcast itself also was quirky, since remember it rendered polygons in a different way than most GPUs. One side effect was that translucency was trivial (something that modern hardware still struggles with), so it was very common to see Dreamcast games throwing around translucency effects like it was no big deal. That's something that has been definitely lost since then (also, I swear many Dreamcast games have really saturated colors for some reason, but there seems to be nothing in the hardware encouraging this)


But yeah, beyond the Dreamcast everything became samey. The gray-and-brown shading from the 7th generation was in part to be gritty but mostly to hide deficiencies of the lighting systems used at the time, but yeah, it looks like crap :​v