What is the best looking 16 bit game? excluding Neo geo

Have to side with Barone, warped pixels aren't the issue, less pixels to work with is the issue. For example. CPS-2 games all have warped pixels and they are some of the most beautiful pixel art graphics. But CPS-2 also ran at 384×224, much higher then the pitiful 256x224 of SNES & NES, and that's what makes the biggest difference as you have more freedom to make more detailed pixel art.

The problem with warped pixels on the SNES is when the pixel artists don't account for the 4:3 CRT TV aspect ratio stretch, that's when things end up looking too out of proportion. ie. Lion King & first Earthworm Jim have stretched fat sprites at 4:3, but Maui Mallard & Earthworm Jim 2 account for stretch and looks in same proportion as Genesis version (if less detailed since Genesis run in higher 320x224 res mode).

Um yes you can (pixels cover a larger area so you need less pixels). You got it backwards.

The issue is more for things that have to be aligned to specific boundaries (like tiles). You really don't want to deal with the ugly mess that happens when you don't respect the boundaries.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Of course it does. It makes the artists job harder and can require extra tiles to retain the proportions of the original artwork (like an 8x8 circle pattern, can't do that in proportion with only 1 tile)

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Yes it does make it harder on the pixel artist, but they get used to it. Recall in an interview for Progear (CPS-2), the Cave pixel artist really struggled with the warped pixels at first and was getting complaints from the Capcom programmers saying "Why can't you make beautiful pixel art like the Capcom artists." But in the end Progear ended up looking gorgeous.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Of course it does. It makes the artists job harder and can require extra tiles to retain the proportions of the original artwork (like an 8x8 circle pattern, can't do that in proportion with only 1 tile)

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And you're still talking about an aspect ratio issue, not a resolution one.

I'll never ever support a statement like this:
"SNES can only display a flawed, 8:7 shaped resolution (256x224 pixels)"




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssluTgfkdlg

Artwork gets drawn and displayed imperfectly either way. Both in games and everything else.

For pixelart there sre sweet spots for different assets where it is easier to draw or just looks better with more or less pixels. Sprites in particular are affected by efficiency of what they need to be cobbled together with.

Regardless of resolution, you're drawing pictures on hundreds of different sized pieces of paper, not just one huge canvas. Regardless of how big of a poster everything gets stuck on at the end, some of those shapes of little pieces of paper will lead to better pictures than if you had used other random shapes and/or sizes.

SNES games are negatively affected by this more than Genesis and PCE and it's noticeable in most games.

For both sprites and tiles, you can lose a lot of artwork by using 320+ wide instead of 256 pixels wide, as it requires around 20% more pixels to display the same artwork, regardless of how simple the style may be. Thats independent of the fact that the jump in resolution isn't apples to apples when a console is bottlebecked by strict color restrictions and another is not.

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Originally Posted by Barone

And you're still talking about an aspect ratio issue, not a resolution one.

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But the aspect ratio issue comes from the inadequate resolution shape.

Again I've never seen a SNES game (or game in 256x224 pixels regardless of the platform) with consistent graphics in terms of aspect ratio once displayed in 4:3. I've heard people mentioning Chrono Trigger but nope, not even and right from the title screen you can already see that with the pendulum (which is round by default and thus ends oval once in 4:3 while other assets have been made thinner by default and thus have good ratio once in 4:3 so the whole game is just a mess in that regard).


Anyway I've seen enough side-by-side comparisons of games in 256x224 pixels vs 320x224 pixels to tell that the former is just bad. A few notable examples:

Earthworm Jim SNES (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels).

Desert, Jungle and Urban Strike SNES (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels).

Columns PC Engine (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels).

Devil Crash PC Engine (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels).

Turrican PC Engine (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels).

Atomic Robo-Kid PC Engine (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels).

All these games have better aspect ratio, wider screen estate and usually better gameplay on Mega Drive solely due to the higher resolution. And there are many other examples... (Zool, The Chaos Engine, Puyo Puyo 1 and 2, Mickey Mania, Micro Machines 2, Sensible Soccer...).


And then there are the few cases where the developers did manage to partly redrawn the graphics in order to keep things with a (more or less) good aspect ratio once in 4:3 but this comes at the cost of graphic details (less pixels available). Compare Black Hole Assault PC Engine CD (256x224 pixels) vs Mega-CD (320x224 pixels) or Earthworm Jim 2 SNES (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels). Earthworm Jim 2 on SNES kinda make up for the worst graphics details by adding extra parallax or other things but I prefer a more solid graphic basis.


The only kind of games which kinda hold up in 256x224 pixels are games with digitized graphics (you know, Mortal Kombat and such) since such games have "approximative art" so it doesn't matter as much if you lose some pixels here and there. But still, some things may look wrong, either on the sprites themselves or elsewhere...


I think that soon I will open a thread about this where I will gather all these details plus side-by-side screenshots and GIFs, this will be more eloquent than only words :)

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Originally Posted by Folco

Still great

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Not in my opinion :p

Actraiser 2's graphics are great, ye, but the resolution format damage them. That's why, as someone who love the Mega Drive, I'm sad that games such as Monster World III or IV run in the system's low resolution :/

But thanks for the info about the graphic artist. I didn't know that it was Yuzo's sister who did the visuals in these games! :)

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Gundam Wing: Endless Duel

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There are mockups of this game made with the Mega Drive palettes and they look quite close while on the other hand Sega's console could have probably handled the game in higher resolution and without these black borders at the top and bottom of the screen which are here more likely to save on VRAM (many SNES games do this).

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Originally Posted by Vludi

As far as 16-bits go it's up there imo, Natsume was conscious of the SNES limitations and developed a very solid and particular game with that.

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I agree. It's one of the best 16-bit brawlers but it doesn't put arcade games to shame unlike what some people claim.

Also I wonder how it could have turned out on Mega Drive. A certain loss in colors but +25% wider resolution and more likely added co-op option and/or more enemies at once? Could be great.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Greatest Heavyweights - Huge Neo Geo style sprites, lovely animation and a great 360 rotation trick on the background with some lovely animation on the boxing fans too

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I just watched it and it looks great indeed! It also sounds good. Quite lot of quality speech.

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Axelay

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The horizontal stages look good, ye, but the vertical ones look like crap IMO and there's a similar kind of stage in Super Turrican 2 and it just looks as bad (but Super Turrican 2 looks bad anyway, trully a game which shows how crappy mode 7 could look. Also the graphic style changed for the worse. The first Super Turrican or Mega Turrican look much better in comparison...).

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Strider

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By far the best-looking port of its time along with the X68000 version! Such a shame that the Mega Drive japanese version has a bug near the end making impossible to properly 1 life the game :/

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Originally Posted by Thief

On the Sega CD Final Fight is the best looking game

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That's a bold statement :p

It looks great, especially on CRT (as these systems are meant to be played anyway), but there's that one thing which annoys me: the disjointed animation when using or throwing something. How such a thing has been overlooked when doing the port? :/

Also, as far as look go, Dennin Aleste, Mickey Mania or Earthworm Jim are up there with the best-looking Mega-CD games and among the ones in low res, Soul Star, Jaguar XJ220 or Batman & Robin are also among the best-looking.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

Artwork gets drawn and displayed imperfectly either way. Both in games and everything else.

For pixelart there sre sweet spots for different assets where it is easier to draw or just looks better with more or less pixels. Sprites in particular are affected by efficiency of what they need to be cobbled together with.

Regardless of resolution, you're drawing pictures on hundreds of different sized pieces of paper, not just one huge canvas. Regardless of how big of a poster everything gets stuck on at the end, some of those shapes of little pieces of paper will lead to better pictures than if you had used other random shapes and/or sizes

SNES games are negatively affected by this more than Genesis and PCE and it's noticeable in most games.

For both sprites and tiles, you can lose a lot of artwork by using 320+ wide instead of 256 pixels wide, as it requires around 20% more pixels to display the same artwork, regardless of how simple the style may be. Thats independent of the fact that the jump in resolution isn't apples to apples when a console is bottlebecked by strict color restrictions and another is not.

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No one's talking random pixel sizes.

And not arguing that higher resolution isn't better. Arguing higher resolution is more important the non-warped pixels. ie. Final Fight for CPS-1 looks better in 4:3 then Sega CD pixel art wise despite warped pixels because it has more pixels to work with (384x224 VS 320x224).

@Thief: ye but CPS-1 has more pixels to work with and thus allows for increased graphic definition while SNES (or systems/games in 256x224 pixels) have less pixels to work with leading to various issues depending of the case (smaller screen estate and/or wrong aspect ratio and, in any cases, stretched pixels).

I know, but my point still stands. Resolution is more important then non-stretched pixels, therefore main issue with SNES is lower resolution, not stretched pixels because I've just proven that wrong with CPS1 & 2 games.

Also, the warped pixels of CPS1 & 2 give a unique Arcade like look that hits all the right nostalgia buttons.

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Originally Posted by Yohko16

trully a game which shows how crappy mode 7 could look.

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Mode 7 was only used on the bosses in Vertical parts for the main. I thik those parts look too and sound amazing.

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Such a shame that the Mega Drive japanese version has a bug near the end making impossible to properly

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Yeah its amazing, don't know of the Bug but the Japan version as one of the best covers to any game in the history of gaming imo

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That's a bold statement

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Depends on the genre a little . But it does look amazing and is most prob the most impressive Arcade port to the 16 bit systems around at that time.

I have to say when it came to GFX - The 3D parts to Batman Returns and Cliffhanger were the best and showed off what the ASIC chip could really do when asked. Switch is another great looking Mega CD game too

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Originally Posted by Barone

And you're still talking about an aspect ratio issue, not a resolution one.

I'll never ever support a statement like this:
"SNES can only display a flawed, 8:7 shaped resolution (256x224 pixels)"

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It says 8:7 right in that quote, that's the aspect ratio of the SNES's resolution. A resolution meant for display on 4:3 screens. A square peg for a round hole.
Artists can work around it of course but it's an annoyance. Many SNES games didn't bother for whatever reasons.

I'd say on the MD's case it's not really flawed since the artist/developer can pick whichever best fits the game, a proper 4:3 res is always available.
Same for the PCE, though there using the higher resolution modes is more problematic since they don't give any extra sprites.

@Thief: both aren't square but squeezed pixels (CPS-1 once in 4:3) > stretched pixels (SNES once in 4:3).

About this, Sega usually used good resolution standards for their hardwares. Most if not all of them mostly use a 4:3 shaped or close to 4:3 resolution:
The SG-1000 and Master System whose majority of games seem to run in 256×192 pixels.

Their arcade boards: System 16, System 32, X board, Y board... all in 320x224 pixels.

The Mega Drive, Mega-CD and 32X whose majority of games run in 320x224 pixels.

Then I dunno yet about the Saturn and Dreamcast but I wouldn't be surprised that they kept things this way.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Mode 7 was only used on the bosses in Vertical parts for the main. I thik those parts look too and sound amazing.

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I remember a giant sandworm made of mode 7 in Super Turrican 2 and it looked so bad :D

When I said this, I also thought of many other instances where mode 7 was used and looks bad:
- the section with the huge candlesticks in Castlevania IV
- that yellow rotating boss in Rendering Ranger
- for Suzuka 8 Hours which looks so bad compared to the arcade
- also some games in the F1 Circus series and other racing games which use mode 7 and just look flat like a pancake

To me, mode 7 only looks good in games such as Super Mario World because the "goofiness" of mode 7 works in such cases and also for the few well-made mode 7 games, F-Zero or Super Mario Kart.

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don't know of the Bug

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The game doesn't trigger the giant centipede which carries you to the final boss so you have to lose a life by jumping into the void or something and only after that the centipede finally deigns to come and carry you.

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but the Japan version as one of the best covers to any game in the history of gaming imo

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Yup! But there are so many Mega Drive japanese games with fantastic boxarts :)

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But it does look amazing and is most prob the most impressive Arcade port to the 16 bit systems around at that time

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Final Fight CD does look pretty great ye. The resolution, sprite size and amount of animation frames are all excellent, the color use is fairly good... It's just a shame about that disjointed animation.

btw is there a topic about the best arcade ports here at Sega-16? Could be interesting.

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I have to say when it came to GFX - The 3D parts to Batman Returns and Cliffhanger were the best and showed off what the ASIC chip could really do when asked

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The vehicle parts in Batman Returns look phenomenal!

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

A square peg for a round hole

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Something like this ye ^^'

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Artists can work around it of course but it's an annoyance. Many SNES games didn't bother for whatever reasons.

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More likely because it must be very annoying to do so. It's like saying "ok guys so you have someting in mind but actually you won't be able to replicate it the way you want cuz of some resolution bullshit".

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Same for the PCE, though there using the higher resolution modes is more problematic since they don't give any extra sprites.

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Ah, so that's the reason (or at least one of the reasons). I always wondered why PC Engine games in high res seemed to have more compromises than the ones in low res.

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Originally Posted by Yohko16

@Thief: both aren't square but squeezed pixels (CPS-1 once in 4:3) > stretched pixels (SNES once in 4:3).

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So one set of pixels are horizontal rectangles and the other vertical rectangles. Tomato, tomatoes. You're still coming down to higher resolution comes out on top. What you want me to say, keep SNES in pixel perfect aspect ratio and squash it from the top instead of stretching it from the sides and that will make you happy? Same thing.

I just knew this subject would turn into a Genesis vs everything thread.