Robot Army has no parallax effects in the whole game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Folco
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Robot Army has no parallax effects in the whole game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Folco
SoR 2 is absolutely gorgeous, no doubt about it. Better than Robo Army for sure.
Now for the best looking Amiga game (unfortunately a very poor game):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCQi7ioCMVE
It makes the Amiga look way more powerful than it actually is. Trully the Atari 2600 of its gen :p
I wish someone would check how the heck the game achieves the graphics it does. "It stops the background animation when things are too hectic" and "The coins flash when there are too many" are nice tricks but they don't explain the whole game.
So many questions:
- How does it draw the score panel, is it using sprites? how is it covering that much of the screen with full colour sprites?
- How does it handle the character sprites plus the 3D floor? Are they hardware sprites? Too big for that. Some clever Blitter offset trickery? Shadow Fighter uses dual playfield mode, but that's clearly not used here, the characters and backgrounds are too colourful.
- How does it blit SO many things around? Some backgrounds have tons of animation, parallax, plus all the little items the game spits out. The tricks above explain some of it, but it's still doing a lot, specially since it runs fullscreen at 50fps and in 32 color mode.
- How exactly is the parallax achieved? Sprites? Blitting just that small area? Different approaches per stage?
I can tell how most Amiga games do their tricks, but this one is just crazy.
https://static.giantbomb.com/uploads...293015-064.pnghttps://static.giantbomb.com/uploads...293049-139.pnghttps://static.giantbomb.com/uploads...293046-130.pnghttps://static.giantbomb.com/uploads...293028-092.pnghttps://static.giantbomb.com/uploads...293008-044.png
This looks like a Jaguar game.
Doesn't Jim Power reuse the same two sprites over and over in the same line in order to use them as a parallax layer? (by modifying their X coordinate as the beam goes) Given that it shouldn't seem strange for HUD to do the same, especially with the two gaps around the middle portion.
Honestly I have no idea what the game does though, other than the players do look like they have much less colors than the backgrounds (but that may be so they play nice with any background).
EDIT: it seems Elfmania changes palette across the screen for more than just the sky gradient. That makes some stuff seem more colorful than it actually is in memory (so it's possible a bunch of those "high color" sprites are actually low color). That still wouldn't explain the players though (which certainly don't seem limited to 3 colors per line).
EDIT 2: actually thinking that the players may be just done with the blitter. I suppose the linescrolling could be done by blitting one line at a time (so at least it's accelerated to some extent). Only the floor seems to have this effect anyway (though I wasn't paying that much attention).
That ElfMania game is mighty impressive technically but damn, the art direction on the characters is awful.
Talking of the Amiga this looked amazing for the system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjmoet0xiwk&t=203s
So much love for SoR II but none for its 24 MEGA POWER sequel ?
It plays a better game is handling a little bit more, but I dislike the art direction, the use of colour and the music hurts my ears.Quote:
Originally Posted by chilled
@Sik
Repeating the sprites with the copper is one thing, but also changing their data? My guess is the 2 portraits are 16 colour sprites (4/8 sprite channels gone) then the middle portion is two 4 colour sprites, and the actual healthbars + score next to the portraits are "drawn" by the copper. That actually gives plenty of time to update all the sprite data. If this is what the game does then it is very clever.
Don't misunderstand me, I do think SOR2 looks great for a Mega Drive game and I'm sure it had better production values than Robo Army.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
SOR2 main protagonists' animations are notably better (for the enemies it depends on a per case basis) and it has some really classy visual design (the lights reflected on the floor in the first stage, the back of the coin ops in the arcade alley that looks almost 3D, background distortion in some stages and more) but RA has bigger sprites, more detailed graphics and it's more colorful.
In short RA looks like a game for the arcades from early '90s (well, duh, it is).
And we are talking about a Neo Geo game released a year and half after the Neo Geo launch.
I was just commenting that I don't consider SOR2's graphics "up there to Neo Geo levels" despite how good looking it is, it still looks Mega Drive-ish.
Actraiser II was mighty impressive looking on SNES.
https://i.imgur.com/10uvzpH.png
https://i.imgur.com/YMmI7Ba.png
And I was just arguing against the common notion that more colors and bigger sprites mean better graphics automatically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Folco
Also have to say that Boogerman: A Pick and Flic is a really good looking MD game with great animation and that Toe Jam and Earl II, Monster World IV, Cotton are some seriously brilliant looking MD games too
Panorama Cotton may seem technically impressive with the 3D effects but from an artistic viewpoint it hits hard against the hardware limits there and it shows. Compared to the 2D entries in the series it feels extremely empty.
I suppose we could bring in the 2D Cotton games from the 16-bit era though...
Alien soldier would’ve looked good for a NEO•GEO game let alone the genesis
How do you mean empty, exactly? Choppy I'll give you, but one of the key aspects of the game is the amount of sprites that appear on-screen whilst doing all the whiz-bang 3D stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sik
Well, a MCD port would've been cool.
Meh. It still lacks a lot of texturing and details, I think that's where Sik is coming from:Quote:
Originally Posted by OverDrone
https://youtu.be/tQzaeEAaA_0?t=1787
If you pay attention, the floor is so flat in that part that it even doesn't make sense.
Yeah, there are some moments of graphical sterility in Panorama Cotton for sure. It's obviously not going to match the 2D pixel art backdrops of the other Cotton games since it's a rail shooter on a console with no hardware scaling or polygonal hardware, yet it gives the impression of rendering both. Also, since the game changes visual techniques used to render the scene often I'm seeing any plain-looking bits as part of the trade off. Other Space Harrier-type games on the machine really just have the one visual trick going on that makes up the game.
In that aspect there's nothing comparable on MD or other 4th gen consoles at the time IMO.
The part in the video with the vertical scaling is definitely the oddest effect in the game though, I think you're meant to be busting out of the surface of the lava or something.
*Edited for grammar etc.
I was thinking more on stuff like the first stage but that part actually manages to look worse.
That's precisely the problem though. For the most part the scenery boils down to a road with some sprites scattered around on the floor - and there's no way around it, because the hardware isn't capable of filling the screen with a lot more of sprites (you'll run head on against the limits by a long shot - games like OutRun resort to putting the nearest layer in one of the scroll planes to work around this to give an idea of how bad it gets).
Compare with e.g. the first stage in Cotton 100% which was available on SNES (2:07):
https://youtu.be/OheFjpPj4sM?t=127
So yeah, it may seem impressive from a technical viewpoint (though with low framerate it's much easier to get away with that stuff), but overall from an artistic viewpoint the 2D games tend to trash it. Especially with Cotton being a series known for pretty scenery.
EDIT: is it Cotton 100% or 100% Cotton?
In a way that's apples and oranges though and PC still looks (and sounds!) way better to me overall.
One way to mitigate the lack of sprites on the floor would be to have it textured, though I suppose you'd then face a VRAM size issue which maybe could be countered by using a bigger cart and having more graphical data uncompressed in the ROM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sik
SoulStar looks a lot better for a couple of reasons (smooth sprite scaling helps a lot too, specially when the frame rate is low) but one of them is that the floor is textured in a way that the objects' sprites blend into it instead of looking disjointed as in Panorama Cotton:
https://youtu.be/u9xMmKxFgwg?t=1179
I know that MD's Street Racer uses textured floors but IDK to which extent it would be feasible in a game such as Panorama Cotton.
I like much Project MD by Sik too, nice colors choices and fantastic depth effects!
This stage simulates 4 backgrounds layers
https://j.gifs.com/O7RvXB.gif
And this simulates a transparent layer unprecedented in Genesis games.
https://j.gifs.com/1jDop0.gif
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaN5ppU7XYA
Skip to like 4-5 minutes in. The animations in this are amazing.
I think that some of the late SNES games looked amazing.
Ninja Warriors and Wild Guns could almost pass for early Neo Geo games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W97EtvoYGtY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qzXWP-t9Y
Alpha 2 SNES is vastly inferior to all other versions, but an impressive port graphically nonetheless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOzxiIQAFWc
Had this been done on the Megadrive and we'd all be talking on how it effectively surpassed Neo Geo graphicsQuote:
Originally Posted by avlon
Ninja Warriors Again is too segmented, limited and static to be compared to Neo Geo or arcade games of that era IMHO:Quote:
Originally Posted by avlon
- Many short sections instead of long and seamless levels like side scrolling arcade games actually had.
- Mostly static and small-scale backgrounds. Example: compare the subway section with Final Fight's.
- Limited enemy waves; three enemies at most IIRC.
Alpha 2 is so meh in this rendition. The backgrounds are so dull, everything is so downgraded and cut; I'd say Fatal Fury Special and Fighter's History: Mizoguchi Kiki Ippatsu!! did a better job especially considering SFA2's extra hardware.
Of the ones you cited, I think Wild Guns is the better looking one thanks to its pixelart and animation. Sprites are still too tiny to be mistaken by an arcade game, but as you said "could almost pass", I tend to agree with you.
To be fair... (go to 8:07 for the first stage)Quote:
Originally Posted by chilled
https://youtu.be/Mp26di7Qz8w?t=487
Amusing how they added letterboxing just to pretend it's widescreen like the arcade (even though it actually lowered the resolution and still isn't wide enough... you really don't want it that wide though @_@).
EDIT: in hindsight I wonder how much free blanking time they got by doing that too... That's like way more than vblank itself in NTSC o_O (no idea if the game actually needs this, though if every enemy has their own space in VRAM then I guess it could be the case - dunno what the game actually is doing however so I can't really say)
Good topic!
But personally I would never mention a game which runs in that flawed resolution of 256x224 pixels as "best-looking something". Games which don't fit the expected 4:3 ratio and thus have stretched pixels and look all deformed? No. 320x224 pixels is just so much better...
But there are still some games in 256x224 pixels which have some merits aside from the resolution issue. Also there are cases where the use of such resolution was justified in order to save on other ressources, for demanding games, usually 3D or pseudo 3D games. Soul Star for example is frigging impressive and has a nice art direction. Maybe I will do a "honorable mentions" for these games...
Anyway here are my picks, I'm doing it by genre and without order:
Best-looking 4th gen platformers:
- Ristar (superb game which shows that only the Mega Drive can deliver the full package: proper resolution (320x224 pixels), great graphics, great scrollings, many effects including transparency... a winner!)
- Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (looks so sharp and lively, another winner and I prefer it over the other 16-bit Sonic games)
- Dynamite Headdy (excellent graphics, plenty of cool effects and one of the most creative games ever!)
- Flink (Mega Drive or Mega-CD versions. A game with beautifully crafted visuals and nice effects (rotation, scaling...). The Sega versions look the best (Amiga CD32 version has cropped screen (black borders on each side of the screen) and a weird-looking HUD bar)
- Mickey Mania (Mega Drive or Mega-CD versions. Great graphics, incredible animation, some impressive effects... Traveller's Tales really knew their stuff! And the Sega versions look the best, in comparison the SNES version runs in limited resolution, has wrong aspect ratio, has some slowdowns, etc.)
Best-looking 4th gen shoot 'em ups:
- Thunder Force IV (again the Mega Drive is the only system able to deliver the full package: resolution, graphics, scrollings, effects... graphics are very "arcade"... the sprite design is insane... also a game which runs in two screens of height increasing the sense of freedom... wow!)
- Super Fantasy Zone (lovely graphics, great parallax and pretty cool game)
- Panorama Cotton (incredible looking game, the cutscenes already set the standards but the game too is high quality and very creative)
Best-looking 4th gen beat 'em ups:
- Streets of Rage 2 (almost Neo Geo level. Only the Mega Drive can deliver such games. Final Fight 3 for SNES was released 3 years later but still can't match Streets of Rage 2 overall quality)
- Comix Zone (impressive game (including in audio terms despite using the infamous and misunderstood GEMS) and also very creative)
Best-looking 4th gen run 'n guns:
- Alien Soldier (I don't even know where to start here, incredible game in every regards...)
- Gunstar Heroes (cool and distinctive art direction, sweet graphics and plenty of cool effects, another winner)
- Mega Turrican (wow, another game with fantastic color use, great effects, everything in proper resolution and it looks so much better than Turrican III on Amiga. Win!)
- Adventures of Batman & Robin (Mega Drive. Crazy art direction and such a technical marvel!)
Best-looking 4th gen pinball games:
- Devil Crash MD (I grew up with the PC Engine version which already looks good so I was very pleased when I discovered this Mega Drive port. For start the game runs in higher and better shaped resolution meaning that everything has better aspect ratio and a HUD bar with more infos has been added. Then the main table looks slightly less vibrant but many details have been improved and everything else from the title screen to the bonus tables look much better on MD not to mention expanded gameplay and many extra music tracks!)
- Psycho Pinball (Mega Drive version. There's also an improved MS-DOS port but MS-DOS shouldn't be included here since, unlike other hardwares, such PCs are constantly evolving and thus the MS-DOS version of Psycho Pinball belongs more to the 5th gen instead of the 4th one)
Best-looking 4th gen puzzle games:
- Puyo Puyo and Puyo Puyo Tsu (Mega Drive versions (which are basically arcade perfect))
Best-looking 4th gen "action games" (such designation is a bit vague but that's how some games seem to be classified anyway):
- Aladdin (Mega Drive. Best-looking version of the game (Amiga version looks worse in every ways) and when compared to the SNES game, Mega Drive's Aladdin has better resolution and much better sprites and animation!)
- Shadow of the Beast (Amiga. An impressive game tailor-made for the Amiga hardware. Some ports are decent but none of them look as good as the Amiga original)
- Ninja Spirit (PC Engine version. Impressive port for the PC Engine especially since it's one of the few "moving games" on the system which run in good resolution and without much sacrifices)
- Shinobi III (this game has it all: resolution, graphics, scrollings, effects... a great Mega Drive exclusive and probably my favorite Shinobi game!)
- Earthworm Jim (Mega Drive or Mega-CD versions. SNES version was a port of the MD game and while it adds that cool lens flare during the first stage and some real transparency effects here and there, on the other hand it runs in lower resolution, has wrong aspect ratio, worse animation and other issues making me prefer the Sega versions. And what a cool-looking game! Hilarious stuff with lot of personality)
- Pulseman (again proper Mega Drive standards (resolution, graphics, scrollings...) and some creative situations and effects!)
Best-looking 4th gen racing games:
dunno yet
Best-looking 4th gen sport games:
dunno either, maybe Sampras Tennis 96?
Best-looking 4th gen RPG/adventure:
dunno either
Best-looking 4th gen fighting games:
- Yu Yu Hakusho: Makyou Toitsusen (although some stages don't look as good as others but gosh! 4 sprites at once, scaling on sprites, some nice backgrounds with cool effects and everything in proper resolution? Wow!)
Then other great-looking games which are a bit "multi-genres":
- Red Zone (cool Amiga-ish graphics and huge load a great effects!)
- Sub-Terrania (again great Amiga-ish graphics and many cool effects)
- Ecco the Dolphin 1 and 2 (such great-looking games, the second one in particular)
- Ex-Ranza (excellent color use, great sprite work, cool wireframe 3D cutscenes, many in-game effects... such a cool game that I need to dig more)
Lastly the best-looking games among the ones in low resolution (256x224 pixels):
- Hagane (a Mega Drive port in 320x224 pixels could have been nice!)
- R-Type III (mmh, same?)
- Dracula X (I don't like the gameplay but visually impressive and I like what they did with the cutscenes)
- Monster World III (Mega Drive version. I don't like the PC Engine CD version (called Dynastic Hero), it lacks parallax scrollings and the new chara design is awful)
- Monster World IV (lovely graphics but such a shame that these games aren't in 320x224 pixels...)
- Soul Star (looks almost Playstation level!)
- Adventures of Batman & Robin (Mega-CD. Also looks like Playstation level)
Of course I might have missed some but here are the ones which look the best in my opinion :)
btw what about some homebrews? If they count, then I add Pier Solar and I also add the forthcoming Xeno Crisis which already looks amazing! I also like Project MD (by Sik?), some neat effects and really cool graphic style.
I wholeheartedly agree with your critiques. Wild Guns is the only one IMO that actually plays fantastic out of the 3 examples. Alpha 2 was an achievement of sorts (which I bought simply for the novelty of it even as I own the Saturn port) but I always felt that it was rushed to market and could have been tweaked to look/play better. Ninja Warriors has some fantastic sprite work and use of color, but the level design and gameplay aren't great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
As a teen, I ignored a lot of the Disney stuff on the 16-bit consoles, but these days as I look back, the sprite work and animation was top knotch for the time.
Fake screenshot.Quote:
Originally Posted by SegataS
The resolution is way too high for SNES and this screenshot has a proper shape while SNES can only display a flawed, 8:7 shaped resolution (256x224 pixels) which leads to deformed visuals once in 4:3.
Here is how Actraiser 2 actually looks:
http://wikiimages.qwika.com/images/e...Final_Boss.png
And then stretch this to fit the expected 4:3 TV ratio...
Not that great anymore...
Talking about screenshots, these are incomplete ways to show how a game look. Screenshots only show resolution and graphics but video games aren't still pictures since they're also made of animation frames, scrollings, visuals effects, etc. so the only valid way to really show how a game look are GIFs.
There are many games which look good on still screenshots but not that good anymore once in motion... (lacking parallax scrollings, having bad cases of flickerings, having poor animation, etc.)
Also every systems up to the Dreamcast are meant to be displayed on CRT so actually, scanlines and slight filter should also be required here.
???Quote:
Originally Posted by avlon
The resolution is not the cause of the issue you're talking about; it's how the art is drawn that can cause that.
@Barone: the resolution is the issue because of the unfitting shape. Then there are ways to overcome this issue by doing thinner art in order to keep things with good aspect ratio once stretched in 4:3 but it's hard and more likely annoying to do and I've never seen a game with consistent redrawn graphics, there's always something which looks wrong (i.e. with wrong aspect ratio).
Also, in any cases, stretched pixels is stretched pixels and it's not a good thing either.
And 256x224 pixels tends to be narrow and this hurts many games, mainly side scrolling games.
btw that quote was from me not avlon :D
How did I forget that one? Shame on me but now fixed :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottino
Why?!Quote:
Sorry, but I'll have to pass on the Amiga.
As far as 16-bits go it's up there imo, Natsume was conscious of the SNES limitations and developed a very solid and particular game with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by avlon
Still great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yohko16
Ayano Koshiro drew some fantastic pixel art for the game.
Other great looking 16-bit games for which Ayano Koshiro curated the visuals are Beyond Oasis:
https://thecredhulk.files.wordpress....yondoasis2.gif http://104.236.151.57/wp-content/upl...doasis_030.png
and Gotzendiener (too bad it's a half finished game):
http://www.pcengine.co.uk/Images-Scr...ndiener_04.gif https://www.legendra.com/media/scree...r/screen_5.jpg
Another great looking (and great playing) anime based fighting game from that gen is Dragon Ball Z Hyper Dimension.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yohko16
Well Shin Kidou Senki Gundam Wing: Endless Duel is more impressive (best looking fighting game on SNES IMO) but I prefer the Dragon Ball IP.
Also some more I would add
Greatest Heavyweights - Huge Neo Geo style sprites, lovely animation and a great 360 rotation trick on the background with some lovely animation on the boxing fans too
Axelay - It just looks stunning (more so on the 2D sections) and I love the Mode 7 effect on the bosses
Strider - Still holds up today with huge sprites and great scrolling amazing given its such a early MD game
Lunar II - It looks like what one would have expected 32bit RPG's to be like
Urusei Yatsura: My Dear Friends - Just more class from Game Arts
On the Sega CD Final Fight is the best looking game. Probably the most Arcade looking of 16-Bit era too, therefore comparable enough to Neo Geo if you're not playing in less colourful dithered mode.
It looks and sounds better than some Neo Geo games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
The Mega CD had some amazing looking games
Again, the resolution is not the issue and it simply doesn't make sense to blame it for art drawn incorrectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yohko16
Of course it does. It makes the artists job harder and can require extra tiles to retain the proportions of the original artwork (like an 8x8 circle pattern, can't do that in proportion with only 1 tile)Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone