What is the best looking 16 bit game? excluding Neo geo

Have to side with Barone, warped pixels aren't the issue, less pixels to work with is the issue. For example. CPS-2 games all have warped pixels and they are some of the most beautiful pixel art graphics. But CPS-2 also ran at 384×224, much higher then the pitiful 256x224 of SNES & NES, and that's what makes the biggest difference as you have more freedom to make more detailed pixel art.

The problem with warped pixels on the SNES is when the pixel artists don't account for the 4:3 CRT TV aspect ratio stretch, that's when things end up looking too out of proportion. ie. Lion King & first Earthworm Jim have stretched fat sprites at 4:3, but Maui Mallard & Earthworm Jim 2 account for stretch and looks in same proportion as Genesis version (if less detailed since Genesis run in higher 320x224 res mode).

Um yes you can (pixels cover a larger area so you need less pixels). You got it backwards.

The issue is more for things that have to be aligned to specific boundaries (like tiles). You really don't want to deal with the ugly mess that happens when you don't respect the boundaries.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Of course it does. It makes the artists job harder and can require extra tiles to retain the proportions of the original artwork (like an 8x8 circle pattern, can't do that in proportion with only 1 tile)

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Yes it does make it harder on the pixel artist, but they get used to it. Recall in an interview for Progear (CPS-2), the Cave pixel artist really struggled with the warped pixels at first and was getting complaints from the Capcom programmers saying "Why can't you make beautiful pixel art like the Capcom artists." But in the end Progear ended up looking gorgeous.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Of course it does. It makes the artists job harder and can require extra tiles to retain the proportions of the original artwork (like an 8x8 circle pattern, can't do that in proportion with only 1 tile)

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And you're still talking about an aspect ratio issue, not a resolution one.

I'll never ever support a statement like this:
"SNES can only display a flawed, 8:7 shaped resolution (256x224 pixels)"




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssluTgfkdlg

Artwork gets drawn and displayed imperfectly either way. Both in games and everything else.

For pixelart there sre sweet spots for different assets where it is easier to draw or just looks better with more or less pixels. Sprites in particular are affected by efficiency of what they need to be cobbled together with.

Regardless of resolution, you're drawing pictures on hundreds of different sized pieces of paper, not just one huge canvas. Regardless of how big of a poster everything gets stuck on at the end, some of those shapes of little pieces of paper will lead to better pictures than if you had used other random shapes and/or sizes.

SNES games are negatively affected by this more than Genesis and PCE and it's noticeable in most games.

For both sprites and tiles, you can lose a lot of artwork by using 320+ wide instead of 256 pixels wide, as it requires around 20% more pixels to display the same artwork, regardless of how simple the style may be. Thats independent of the fact that the jump in resolution isn't apples to apples when a console is bottlebecked by strict color restrictions and another is not.

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Originally Posted by Barone

And you're still talking about an aspect ratio issue, not a resolution one.

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But the aspect ratio issue comes from the inadequate resolution shape.

Again I've never seen a SNES game (or game in 256x224 pixels regardless of the platform) with consistent graphics in terms of aspect ratio once displayed in 4:3. I've heard people mentioning Chrono Trigger but nope, not even and right from the title screen you can already see that with the pendulum (which is round by default and thus ends oval once in 4:3 while other assets have been made thinner by default and thus have good ratio once in 4:3 so the whole game is just a mess in that regard).


Anyway I've seen enough side-by-side comparisons of games in 256x224 pixels vs 320x224 pixels to tell that the former is just bad. A few notable examples:

Earthworm Jim SNES (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels).

Desert, Jungle and Urban Strike SNES (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels).

Columns PC Engine (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels).

Devil Crash PC Engine (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels).

Turrican PC Engine (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels).

Atomic Robo-Kid PC Engine (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels).

All these games have better aspect ratio, wider screen estate and usually better gameplay on Mega Drive solely due to the higher resolution. And there are many other examples... (Zool, The Chaos Engine, Puyo Puyo 1 and 2, Mickey Mania, Micro Machines 2, Sensible Soccer...).


And then there are the few cases where the developers did manage to partly redrawn the graphics in order to keep things with a (more or less) good aspect ratio once in 4:3 but this comes at the cost of graphic details (less pixels available). Compare Black Hole Assault PC Engine CD (256x224 pixels) vs Mega-CD (320x224 pixels) or Earthworm Jim 2 SNES (256x224 pixels) vs Mega Drive (320x224 pixels). Earthworm Jim 2 on SNES kinda make up for the worst graphics details by adding extra parallax or other things but I prefer a more solid graphic basis.


The only kind of games which kinda hold up in 256x224 pixels are games with digitized graphics (you know, Mortal Kombat and such) since such games have "approximative art" so it doesn't matter as much if you lose some pixels here and there. But still, some things may look wrong, either on the sprites themselves or elsewhere...


I think that soon I will open a thread about this where I will gather all these details plus side-by-side screenshots and GIFs, this will be more eloquent than only words :)

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Originally Posted by Folco

Still great

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Not in my opinion :p

Actraiser 2's graphics are great, ye, but the resolution format damage them. That's why, as someone who love the Mega Drive, I'm sad that games such as Monster World III or IV run in the system's low resolution :/

But thanks for the info about the graphic artist. I didn't know that it was Yuzo's sister who did the visuals in these games! :)

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Gundam Wing: Endless Duel

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There are mockups of this game made with the Mega Drive palettes and they look quite close while on the other hand Sega's console could have probably handled the game in higher resolution and without these black borders at the top and bottom of the screen which are here more likely to save on VRAM (many SNES games do this).

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Originally Posted by Vludi

As far as 16-bits go it's up there imo, Natsume was conscious of the SNES limitations and developed a very solid and particular game with that.

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I agree. It's one of the best 16-bit brawlers but it doesn't put arcade games to shame unlike what some people claim.

Also I wonder how it could have turned out on Mega Drive. A certain loss in colors but +25% wider resolution and more likely added co-op option and/or more enemies at once? Could be great.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Greatest Heavyweights - Huge Neo Geo style sprites, lovely animation and a great 360 rotation trick on the background with some lovely animation on the boxing fans too

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I just watched it and it looks great indeed! It also sounds good. Quite lot of quality speech.

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Axelay

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The horizontal stages look good, ye, but the vertical ones look like crap IMO and there's a similar kind of stage in Super Turrican 2 and it just looks as bad (but Super Turrican 2 looks bad anyway, trully a game which shows how crappy mode 7 could look. Also the graphic style changed for the worse. The first Super Turrican or Mega Turrican look much better in comparison...).

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Strider

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By far the best-looking port of its time along with the X68000 version! Such a shame that the Mega Drive japanese version has a bug near the end making impossible to properly 1 life the game :/

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Originally Posted by Thief

On the Sega CD Final Fight is the best looking game

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That's a bold statement :p

It looks great, especially on CRT (as these systems are meant to be played anyway), but there's that one thing which annoys me: the disjointed animation when using or throwing something. How such a thing has been overlooked when doing the port? :/

Also, as far as look go, Dennin Aleste, Mickey Mania or Earthworm Jim are up there with the best-looking Mega-CD games and among the ones in low res, Soul Star, Jaguar XJ220 or Batman & Robin are also among the best-looking.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

Artwork gets drawn and displayed imperfectly either way. Both in games and everything else.

For pixelart there sre sweet spots for different assets where it is easier to draw or just looks better with more or less pixels. Sprites in particular are affected by efficiency of what they need to be cobbled together with.

Regardless of resolution, you're drawing pictures on hundreds of different sized pieces of paper, not just one huge canvas. Regardless of how big of a poster everything gets stuck on at the end, some of those shapes of little pieces of paper will lead to better pictures than if you had used other random shapes and/or sizes

SNES games are negatively affected by this more than Genesis and PCE and it's noticeable in most games.

For both sprites and tiles, you can lose a lot of artwork by using 320+ wide instead of 256 pixels wide, as it requires around 20% more pixels to display the same artwork, regardless of how simple the style may be. Thats independent of the fact that the jump in resolution isn't apples to apples when a console is bottlebecked by strict color restrictions and another is not.

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No one's talking random pixel sizes.

And not arguing that higher resolution isn't better. Arguing higher resolution is more important the non-warped pixels. ie. Final Fight for CPS-1 looks better in 4:3 then Sega CD pixel art wise despite warped pixels because it has more pixels to work with (384x224 VS 320x224).

@Thief: ye but CPS-1 has more pixels to work with and thus allows for increased graphic definition while SNES (or systems/games in 256x224 pixels) have less pixels to work with leading to various issues depending of the case (smaller screen estate and/or wrong aspect ratio and, in any cases, stretched pixels).

I know, but my point still stands. Resolution is more important then non-stretched pixels, therefore main issue with SNES is lower resolution, not stretched pixels because I've just proven that wrong with CPS1 & 2 games.

Also, the warped pixels of CPS1 & 2 give a unique Arcade like look that hits all the right nostalgia buttons.

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Originally Posted by Yohko16

trully a game which shows how crappy mode 7 could look.

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Mode 7 was only used on the bosses in Vertical parts for the main. I thik those parts look too and sound amazing.

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Such a shame that the Mega Drive japanese version has a bug near the end making impossible to properly

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Yeah its amazing, don't know of the Bug but the Japan version as one of the best covers to any game in the history of gaming imo

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That's a bold statement

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Depends on the genre a little . But it does look amazing and is most prob the most impressive Arcade port to the 16 bit systems around at that time.

I have to say when it came to GFX - The 3D parts to Batman Returns and Cliffhanger were the best and showed off what the ASIC chip could really do when asked. Switch is another great looking Mega CD game too

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Originally Posted by Barone

And you're still talking about an aspect ratio issue, not a resolution one.

I'll never ever support a statement like this:
"SNES can only display a flawed, 8:7 shaped resolution (256x224 pixels)"

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It says 8:7 right in that quote, that's the aspect ratio of the SNES's resolution. A resolution meant for display on 4:3 screens. A square peg for a round hole.
Artists can work around it of course but it's an annoyance. Many SNES games didn't bother for whatever reasons.

I'd say on the MD's case it's not really flawed since the artist/developer can pick whichever best fits the game, a proper 4:3 res is always available.
Same for the PCE, though there using the higher resolution modes is more problematic since they don't give any extra sprites.

@Thief: both aren't square but squeezed pixels (CPS-1 once in 4:3) > stretched pixels (SNES once in 4:3).

About this, Sega usually used good resolution standards for their hardwares. Most if not all of them mostly use a 4:3 shaped or close to 4:3 resolution:
The SG-1000 and Master System whose majority of games seem to run in 256×192 pixels.

Their arcade boards: System 16, System 32, X board, Y board... all in 320x224 pixels.

The Mega Drive, Mega-CD and 32X whose majority of games run in 320x224 pixels.

Then I dunno yet about the Saturn and Dreamcast but I wouldn't be surprised that they kept things this way.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Mode 7 was only used on the bosses in Vertical parts for the main. I thik those parts look too and sound amazing.

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I remember a giant sandworm made of mode 7 in Super Turrican 2 and it looked so bad :D

When I said this, I also thought of many other instances where mode 7 was used and looks bad:
- the section with the huge candlesticks in Castlevania IV
- that yellow rotating boss in Rendering Ranger
- for Suzuka 8 Hours which looks so bad compared to the arcade
- also some games in the F1 Circus series and other racing games which use mode 7 and just look flat like a pancake

To me, mode 7 only looks good in games such as Super Mario World because the "goofiness" of mode 7 works in such cases and also for the few well-made mode 7 games, F-Zero or Super Mario Kart.

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don't know of the Bug

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The game doesn't trigger the giant centipede which carries you to the final boss so you have to lose a life by jumping into the void or something and only after that the centipede finally deigns to come and carry you.

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but the Japan version as one of the best covers to any game in the history of gaming imo

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Yup! But there are so many Mega Drive japanese games with fantastic boxarts :)

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But it does look amazing and is most prob the most impressive Arcade port to the 16 bit systems around at that time

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Final Fight CD does look pretty great ye. The resolution, sprite size and amount of animation frames are all excellent, the color use is fairly good... It's just a shame about that disjointed animation.

btw is there a topic about the best arcade ports here at Sega-16? Could be interesting.

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I have to say when it came to GFX - The 3D parts to Batman Returns and Cliffhanger were the best and showed off what the ASIC chip could really do when asked

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The vehicle parts in Batman Returns look phenomenal!

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

A square peg for a round hole

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Something like this ye ^^'

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Artists can work around it of course but it's an annoyance. Many SNES games didn't bother for whatever reasons.

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More likely because it must be very annoying to do so. It's like saying "ok guys so you have someting in mind but actually you won't be able to replicate it the way you want cuz of some resolution bullshit".

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Same for the PCE, though there using the higher resolution modes is more problematic since they don't give any extra sprites.

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Ah, so that's the reason (or at least one of the reasons). I always wondered why PC Engine games in high res seemed to have more compromises than the ones in low res.

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Originally Posted by Yohko16

@Thief: both aren't square but squeezed pixels (CPS-1 once in 4:3) > stretched pixels (SNES once in 4:3).

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So one set of pixels are horizontal rectangles and the other vertical rectangles. Tomato, tomatoes. You're still coming down to higher resolution comes out on top. What you want me to say, keep SNES in pixel perfect aspect ratio and squash it from the top instead of stretching it from the sides and that will make you happy? Same thing.

I just knew this subject would turn into a Genesis vs everything thread.

Worse, it turned into a thread about video resolutions, not even arguing about game æsthetics.

Pfff, such complaints.

You can't blame people from sharing/digging stuf, especially when it's about resolution which is directly connected to aesthetic (at least during these generations where resolution also means picture format. Dunno how it turned out afterwards).

What saddens me is the bias.

To write off SNES' graphics as a whole just due to its resolution is pure bias.

It's also bias to boast endlessly about the 320 x 224 advantages when in reality: 1) Lots of MD games have to waste the supposed extra detail with dithering, big areas with solid colors and whatnot due to its rather limited coloring capabilities; 2) Many games also waste a good chunk of the screen with non-transparent HUDs, something which plagues the SNES quite less (see Konami games); 3) For the shitty encoding the MD offers out-of-the-box, the higher res contributes to deteriorate the graphical fidelity even further.

And it sucks to derail the once fun discussion about aesthetics in order to have a half-assed, biased ode to the MD graphics.

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Originally Posted by Sik

Worse, it turned into a thread about video resolutions, not even arguing about game æsthetics.

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Pixel shape and resolution contribute to overall game aesthetics. Since back in the 16-Bit era as a kid, always loved how resolution of Sega Genesis games looked more Arcade like compared to SNES. Was one of several things contributing to switching from SNES fandom.

@Barone: I did mention some games in 256x224 pixels in my post about the best-looking 4th gen games and I could mention some others but I just prefer games in 320x224 or 320x240 pixels which is totally my right.

Then every systems back then used dithering, some less than others but there are still many SNES games for example which use dithering not to mention that dithering is less apparent once displayed on CRT as these systems are meant to be played.

Then about MD games with non-transparent HUD bar, in some cases it could have been avoided ye (Sunset Riders or Hyperstone Heist) but in others it was done on purpose, usually when using higher screen resolution, to fill up the remaning space in order to keep everything with same proportions and better aspect ratio once in 4:3 (Raiden MD or Blackthorne 32X for examples) meaning that it's actually an improvement compared to some other ports/versions.

And there are actually more PC Engine or SNES games affected by such problem, with non-transparent HUD bar and/or black border(s). Just to name a few: Aero Blasters (PCE), Street Fighter II (PCE), Outrun (PCE), Altered Beast (PCE), Golden Axe (PCE), Cool Spot (SNES), DKC 1 and 2 (SNES), many of the SNES beat 'em ups, etc.

And the Mega Drive has the sharpest RGB as well as the blurriest composite, the latter doing a perfect job at blending pixels together which is the only reason to play with compsite so I don't see any issue here either.

Composite on the Genesis is the worst I’ve ever seen on a console. How is it that the TG-16 has a decent composite image quality, while the 240p Genesis image look pretty meh? I’m glad I finally got a component video cable for the Genesis, while S-Video works well enough for the SNES.

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Originally Posted by Yohko16

Also I wonder how it could have turned out on Mega Drive. A certain loss in colors but +25% wider resolution and more likely added co-op option and/or more enemies at once? Could be great.

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Co-op would ruin the gameplay idea of the game, I mean it could be there but just as an extra thing. One more enemy would be alright I guess but it's not really required unlike other SNES belt-scrollers. The whole idea of more enemies = immediately a better game is a cliche anyway, if that was the case MD Growl would be the best 16-bits belt-scroller.

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Originally Posted by Sik

Worse, it turned into a thread about video resolutions, not even arguing about game æsthetics.

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Yeah you could argue that a game has bigger resolution, more parallax, more colors, bigger or more sprites etc, but if you are inclined to only one of those aspects or value a certain art-style/theme more than others, the rest doesn't matter much, aesthetic value is mostly personal.

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Originally Posted by Vludi

Co-op would ruin the gameplay idea of the game, I mean it could be there but just as an extra thing. One more enemy would be alright I guess but it's not really required unlike other SNES belt-scrollers. The whole idea of more enemies = immediately a better game is a cliche anyway, if that was the case MD Growl would be the best 16-bits belt-scroller.

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Dunno, pretty sure that if it would have been made for an arcade board, it would not only run in higher res but also with co-op option and more enemies at once and the Mega Drive could probably handle some if not all of these things.

Having more enemies in such games matter but only if things such as enemy behavior, game's pace, etc. are well made otherwise it doesn't have as much of an impact on the gameplay.

As for aesthetic, some aspects are purely subjective (graphic style, color choices...) but some others are objective (resolution, color depth, scrollings, animation quality...).


Also, just to say (not to you vludi but in general), I guess I wouldn't focus as much on resolution if it was more widely acknowledged but guys, go ahead and try to make some SNES fanboys admit that the Mega Drive higher resolution is a factual plus, lol, better talk to a wall.

I'm a fan of Thunderforce IV personally.

Soulstar's quite a looker too, although I'm not a big fan of the game itself.

On the subject of Snatcher, a special shout-out goes to Policenauts and a number of hentai games on the PC-98; not 16-bit, but some damn impressive uses of 16 colours.

@Silanda: Thunder Force IV in optimized PAL version played on mania mode is a sight to behold :D

Such a fantastic game. not only it looks and sounds fantastic but it also plays like a dream, with wide playfield (two screens of height as I pointed out a few posts ago. How many other horizontal shooters of that era do this?), some cool weapons and good AI. A great achievement on all fronts :)

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Originally Posted by Yohko16

Dunno, pretty sure that if it would have been made for an arcade board, it would not only run in higher res but also with co-op option and more enemies at once and the Mega Drive could probably handle some if not all of these things.

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If it was an arcade they would most likely develop another belt-scroller removing what made the game interesting. NWA is a product of making the best they could with the console's limitations, it being single-player, single-plane and having 4 enemies are all connected and taken in consideration for good gameplay deisgn, arbitrary changes like adding co-op and more enemies would break the balance and require many changes like more planes and dumber AI, changing what made the game particular to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Yohko16

As for aesthetic, some aspects are purely subjective (graphic style, color choices...) but some others are objective (resolution, color depth, scrollings, animation quality...).

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Those are specs, not aesthetics. If we valued aesthetics like that then why even bother with old games with very limited resources.

Gaiares and Gradius III do that. Thunder Force IV is a sight to behold though.

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Originally Posted by Yohko16

I remember a giant sandworm made of mode 7 in Super Turrican 2 and it looked so bad

When I said this, I also thought of many other instances where mode 7 was used and looks bad:
- the section with the huge candlesticks in Castlevania IV

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I don't know why you laughed, It was better than anything the MD could do and looked impressive. I agree with you on the F1 games though.

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The game doesn't trigger the giant centipede which carries you to the final boss so you have to lose a life by jumping into the void or something and only after that the centipede finally deigns to come and carry yo

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Never knew that was a bug tbh.

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Yup! But there are so many Mega Drive japanese games with fantastic boxarts

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None better than Strider, well maybe that SEGA game with a Huge Dragon on the front cover

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The vehicle parts in Batman Returns look phenomenal!

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The Cliffhanger sections look even better and the game runs smoother too.

@Vludi: I get your points about Ninja Warrior Again (well, it's not the first time that we talk about this :p) but I still feel that something better, or at least allowing co-op (which doesn't make a game necessarily better but is still a plus) could be done the way I described.

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Those are specs, not aesthetics. If we valued aesthetics like that then why even bother with old games with very limited resources.

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But specs directly condition or influence visuals.

And we bother about older hardwares and games because they have distinct personalities made of said specs ;)

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Gaiares and Gradius III do that

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I should try Gaiares, I always hear good things about it.

Gradius though, these games do the vertical scrolling thing at some point but in a simpler way. Parodius Da! do this too and it's not really the same as in Thunder Force IV.

But I just remembered another hori shooter which trully does this the TF IV way: Bari-Arm :)

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I don't know why you laughed, It was better than anything the MD could do and looked impressive.

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IMO said effects in Castlevania IV and Super Turrican 2 look like crap :p

And better?! I've seen better effects in Red Zone or Batman & Robin MD for example :)

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None better than Strider

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It's subjective but IMO Thunder Force III and IV have equally as nice-looking boxarts and same for many others. IMO the Mega Drive japanese boxarts and Neo Geo boxarts are the best ever.

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The Cliffhanger sections look even better and the game runs smoother too

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Apparently there's also one scaling-based pseudo-3D section in the Mega-CD version of 3 Ninjas Kick Back. How does that one fare?

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Originally Posted by Yohko16

@Vludi:




I should try Gaiares, I always hear good things about it.

Gradius though, these games do the vertical scrolling thing at some point but in a simpler way. Parodius Da! do this too and it's not really the same as in Thunder Force IV.

But I just remembered another hori shooter which trully does this the TF IV way: Bari-Arm :)

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No, somewhere near the end of Graidus III, the level moves diagonal and at a great pace. You have to move quickly through the moving tunnels. There's also areas where you can take the high path, or the low path to avoid enemies.

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Originally Posted by Barone

???
The resolution is not the cause of the issue you're talking about; it's how the art is drawn that can cause that.

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Looks like you quoted someone else with my SN attached somehow.

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Originally Posted by Yohko16

IMO said effects in Castlevania IV and Super Turrican 2 look like crap :p

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The MD was rather rubbish for scaling in games on that score the Mode 7 worm in Super Turrican II was more impressive and if I'm to be an ass. I could point out that the 360 and 'scaling' effects in Pilotwings was better than anything in Redzone and the game looked far more colourful too or the scaling and rotation effects to stage 2 and the boss in Contra III

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It's subjective but IMO Thunder Force III and IV have equally as nice-looking boxarts and same for many others

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Spot on, but for me this is the best box art I own out of my MD collection

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1824/...c8f7faf0_k.jpg

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Apparently there's also one scaling-based pseudo-3D section in the Mega-CD version of 3 Ninjas Kick Back. How does that one fare?

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There are 2 sections. Really good but just a little choppy and not up there to John O Brien work on Batman or Cliffhanger. Still really impressive and better than anything the base MD or Snes could handle.

How bout this on stock Genesis?
https://youtu.be/uQF_vJPfDOE?t=5m48s

Jump to 5:48 if the video opens from the beginning.

Games I thought looked quite nice:

Genesis/MD:
Phantasy Star IV
Monster World IV
Shinobi III
Magical Taruruto Kun
Strider
Alisia Dragoon
Puyo Puyo Tsuu (simplistic I know, but the sprites are nice)
Thunder Force IV
Castlevania Bloodlines
Contra Hard Corp
Tiny Toons Busters Hidden Treasures
Sparkster
Rocket Knight Adventure
World of Illusion
Fire Shark

SNES/SFC:
All 4 Goemon games
Pop N Twinbee
Twinbee Rainbow Bell Adventure
Magical Pop N
Super Puyo Puyo Tsuu/Puyo Puyo Tsuu Remix
Magical Drop 1 and 2
Cybernator
all 3 Magical Quest games
Batman Returns
Ghost Sweeper Mikami

Keep in mind, these are my opinionated choices of games I find that look outstanding. There's likely more as I absolutely love the 16 bit era. And yes, I am non-biased, love both consoles to death, so much treasure to be had between both consoles from this period.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

The MD was rather rubbish for scaling in games on that score the Mode 7 worm in Super Turrican II was more impressive and if I'm to be an ass. I could point out that the 360 and 'scaling' effects in Pilotwings was better than anything in Redzone and the game looked far more colourful too or the scaling and rotation effects to stage 2 and the boss in Contra III



Spot on, but for me this is the best box art I own out of my MD collection

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1824/...c8f7faf0_k.jpg



There are 2 sections. Really good but just a little choppy and not up there to John O Brien work on Batman or Cliffhanger. Still really impressive and better than anything the base MD or Snes could handle.

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The Mega Drive is much better than SNES at scaling, rotation and misc realtime rendering and existing games prove that. The SNES is only good at specifically one thing, because of hardware support: scaling and/or rotating a single tile layer.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

The Mega Drive is much better than SNES at scaling, rotation and misc realtime rendering and existing games prove that. The SNES is only good at specifically one thing, because of hardware support: scaling and/or rotating a single tile layer.

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Why do people have such a hard time given credit to Mode 7 or SNES? The MD had issues when to emulate Mode 7 . There are much better examples of sprite rotation in MD games, but when it came to scaling and rotation huge background 360 degrees the MD couldn't match the Snes, in much the same way the Snes just couldn't much the MD for action on screen or for animation of the main sprites. Both systems had good and minus points and did stuff very differently. Please doin;'t make out that means I'm a Nintendo lad and that the MD sucks eggs. I love my MD and always been a SEGA man, but there some parts the Snes was better at.

@gamevet: I've seen two levels in Gradius III where there's a vertical scrolling: level 4 and 7, but it's much simpler compared to Thunder Force IV or Bari-Arm. In Gradius III it's just some "floating" scenery pieces in front of a single plane background which doesn't even scroll up and down.

It's nothing like Thunder Force IV or Bari-Arm where the background scrolls up and down and shows various parallax scrollings plus there are actual borders at the top and/or bottom. The stages "Strite" or "Ruin" in Thunder Force IV for instances, here you really have that feeling of being in huge areas which is awesome! :)

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

The MD was rather rubbish for scaling in games

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Are you joking?! The Mega Drive has many games with scaling effects (Super Fantasy Zone, Ex-Ranza, James Pond 3...) and is the only console of that generation to deliver full scaling-based racing games as with Road Rash, F1 or Kawasaki Superbike. Some of them even includes 3D elements, all on stock hardware!

In comparison SNES games such as F-Zero or Super Mario Kart only have a flat scenery and pre-rendered sprite scaling and quite a limited one (very "jumpy").

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the 360 and 'scaling' effects in Pilotwings was better than anything in Redzone

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Dude. Pilotwings runs in lower res, has pixelated graphics and a flat background. Red Zone runs in higher res, has sharper (and IMO nicer) graphics and scenery elements in pseudo-3D.

And there's nothing in Contra III which surpasses the effects seen in Red Zone or MD's Batman & Robin.

Talking about this:

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Why do people have such a hard time given credit to Mode 7 or SNES? The MD had issues when to emulate Mode 7 . There are much better examples of sprite rotation in MD games, but when it came to scaling and rotation huge background 360 degrees the MD couldn't match the Snes

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Black_Tiger given credits to this just above your post and personally I never said that mode 7 sucked, on the contrary, it's one of the rare things that I like with the SNES but only for some specific uses as I previously explained.

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There are 2 sections. Really good but just a little choppy and not up there to John O Brien work on Batman or Cliffhanger. Still really impressive and better than anything the base MD or Snes could handle.

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ok! Gonna watch this.

And Bahamut Senki has one sweet boxart! Looks fantastic. Other beautiful MD japanese boxarts are Golden Axe, Alien Storm, El Viento or Musha Aleste. What's even cooler is that some of these games have their boxart spreads on the 3 sides of the box! That's another reason why I like MD cases so much and why a MD collection looks so frigging cool.

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Originally Posted by Orchid87

How bout this on stock Genesis?
https://youtu.be/uQF_vJPfDOE?t=5m48s

Jump to 5:48 if the video opens from the beginning.

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Holy s*** that's impressive! :v

I checked further and found out other impressive sequences, like here:
https://youtu.be/xr03931gXCE?t=1m10s

Or here:
https://youtu.be/87XSAih_KgU?t=10s

Seriously the game could pass for early 32-bit stuff.

I really wish they didn't use real scaling for Road Rash games and used fake scaling via multiple size sprites instead, just like many other 16-bit racers do. RR games are so choppy they're borderline unplayable.

Those F1 and Kawasaki Superbike games are technical marvels though. IIRC the engine was developed on Amiga first, for the game known as Vroom.

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Originally Posted by Yohko16

@gamevet: I've seen two levels in Gradius III where there's a vertical scrolling: level 4 and 7, but it's much simpler compared to Thunder Force IV or Bari-Arm. In Gradius III it's just some "floating" scenery pieces in front of a single plane background which doesn't even scroll up and down.

It's nothing like Thunder Force IV or Bari-Arm where the background scrolls up and down and shows various parallax scrollings plus there are actual borders at the top and/or bottom. The stages "Strite" or "Ruin" in Thunder Force IV for instances, here you really have that feeling of being in huge areas which is awesome! :)

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My response was to this.

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Such a fantastic game. not only it looks and sounds fantastic but it also plays like a dream, with wide playfield (two screens of height as I pointed out a few posts ago. How many other horizontal shooters of that era do this?), some cool weapons and good AI. A great achievement on all fronts.

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Here you go!

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Originally Posted by Yohko16

Are you joking?! The Mega Drive has many games with scaling effects (Super Fantasy Zone, Ex-Ranza, James Pond 3...) and is the only console of that generation to deliver full scaling-based racing games as with Road Rash, F1 or Kawasaki Superbike

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Nothing that used in SNES games and even the Amiga could handle plenty of sprite scaling effects, and did polygons better than the MD. But when it came to scaling a huge background or main sprite is when they had issues .

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Pilotwings runs in lower res, has pixelated graphics and a flat background. Red Zone runs in higher res, has sharper

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Pilotwings looks far more colourful and the scaling rotation is smoother, but that's using a DSP. Contra III overhead stages look better than those in Redzone imo. I'm not dissing the game, just imo Contra III looks better for the overhead stages.

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ok! Gonna watch this

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Here's the master that was John O Brien (who also programmed Adv Of Batman and Robin on the MD) at work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNnI760j3Cw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVxtl3jI39g&t=481s

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Bahamut Senki has one sweet boxart! Looks fantastic

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That it is. I brought it from my import shop, for the cover alone lol