I've written a new article with some very interesting info that I've translated about the Sony-Sega partnership that never happened:
Sega and Sony: New Insight into the Partnership That Never Came to Be
Thoughts?
I've written a new article with some very interesting info that I've translated about the Sony-Sega partnership that never happened:
Sega and Sony: New Insight into the Partnership That Never Came to Be
Thoughts?
This isn't really new but still interesting. Tom said this in multiple interviews some time ago. A few years ago on a YouTube interview was my first exposure to the news and mentioned more in-depth about this and spec sheets and such. It's another what if and easy for some to speculate it would have sold like the PS1 but given SEGA's marketing in the US...maybe not, then again I don't know if he was gone by then. I'm sure TA will come in and say Tom is a liar again and was all his fault Saturn failed tho. As a SEGA fan yes I'd love to see that marriage happen but in reality, I'm not convinced it would have been for the better as a whole for the industry. PS1 needed to happen to grow the market like it did. I'm not sure it would have been the success PS1 was but let's say that it was. Their next system I don't think would be the Dreamcast as DC was a response to everything that went wrong with Saturn. So SEGA like Sony and Nintendo have done after a huge success...be arrogant and not try as hard the next time. SEGA was poor at managing money anyway. May have ended up out of the console biz anyway just a little later.
Trust me, this is new. This goes way beyond the few tidbits Kalinske has thrown out over the years.
Nice article. Love your website this what the internet was made for! You can wonder where is NAMCO now? Not in a better or worse state then SEGA. So in hindside it wouldn't have made a big difference.
Its not hard to prove TOM lies. For starters, he sites one of the reasons for him leaving SEGA was the turning down of SONY hardware, yet he left in 1997 and only really left because his main backer at SEGA Japan, Nakayama-san was stepping down. If you're upset over SOJ turning down SONY's hardware, the moment to have stepped down was in 1993 and join up with your best mates at SONY not leave some 3 years after the Saturn 1st launched. That's to overlook noone has ever back up Tom's claims be that inside SEGA America, SEGA Japan or anyone from SONY. Maybe that's because the only one that was offered real SONY hardware was Nintendo and 'if' SEGA America did know of the SONY hardware then it would have known the tech spec's and that forget the Saturn, the 32X wouldn't have a chance with what SONY was working on .Quote:
Originally Posted by SegataS
But in EDGE's making of the PlayStation, the moment Nintendo dropped SONY, the order from the very top came to 'chart their own course' and work alone and that was way back in 1991 so no hope for SEGA's follow up to the Mega Drive. Phil Harrison even joked and laughed saying how SONY used SEGA to gain knowledge on CD-Rom development. He said when SEGA was pushing Ground Zero Texas, he was secretly showing off prototype PS Hardware that was the size of an Office photocopier. So much for a friendship with SEGA America
[IMG]https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1595/...fb23d8ab_o.jpg2016-01-18_08-56-53 by Mega Drive, on Flickr[/IMG]
Well another thing is Nintendo tried to buy Namco in 2003 but they got Monolith out of it instead. Tho I'd say Namco or Bamco is in a better place despite being merged. They are making a lot of well seelling quality games. SEGA I just can't think of much outside Yakuza & Atlus.Quote:
Originally Posted by highlandcattle
I think that Paramount representative who died of a heart attack was actually Gulf + Western’s founder and chairman, Charles Bluhdorn. G+W owned Paramount and Sega at the time.
WTF does Phil Harrison know?Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Kalinski knew that there was no money from hardware sales and wanted to have Sony absorb some of the costs. I don't doubt that he and Olaf didn't try to pursue that.
I don't want to go there. The horse has been beaten to death.
Harrison was head of SONY Software development, so knew quite a lot, was one of the longest-serving members of staff, from the original staff and was part of the Software group with the PS, PS2, PS3Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Olaf was never head of R&D since SONY America never had an R&D division, and even Olaf had enough of the SONY Japanese paymasters after he resigned over the pricing of the PS and SONY Japan sutting down SONY Canada, just after the launch of the system until 1995 and so Olaf resigned
If SEGA America and SONY America were looking to share hardware and tech, why did SEGA America request the SH-2's and not the MIPS CPU's of the PS design? or look to want the Saturn to use a Motorola CPU lol
Tom not only spins over SONY, he spins over SEGA America and Japan not getting on, it's been backed up by key staff at the time, like how Scott Bayless, Marty Fran and the late great Joe Miller never back up Tom's claims of working with SONY Hardware, much like none of them ever back up his claims over a bad working relationship and the same goes for the Key SEGA Europe staff that were Nick, Barry and Mark; none of them say that SEGA had a chance to work with SONY and all say SEGA Japan were a wonderful team to work with.
.
If TOM was so unhappy with SEGA Japan over not going for the SONY Spec he worked on and then forcing the Saturn launch may day on him, why did he wait until mid-1997 to resign, some 3 years later? I think the only reason Tom left was becasue his main backer at SOJ was stepping down
I was just looking at the release list on SEGA's website and apparently they only have one game planned with a fixed date. How strange is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by SegataS
I shouldn’t even respond to this, but your Tom Kelinske BS is getting old. You can’t even get the date right, about when he resigned. He resigned near the beginning of 1996 and remained for about 6 months to allowQuote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
SEGA of America to transition to new leadership. David Rosen wouldn’t have left the board, if Kalinske was lying. That’s been documented to death.
Harrison was not a part of Sony software around 1992-1993, when this whole thing would have happened. There was no Sony video game division in Europe back then either, but there was Sony Imagesoft in North America that worked closely with SEGA to distribute CD software.
Kalinske resigned in July 1996. Nakayama and Rosen also stepped down that month. I doubt they both would have left if Kalinske was lying. And Nick Alexander mentioned the problems with working with SOJ. Its treatment of SOE with the Game Gear was the whole reason he left the company.
Quote:
Sega-16:Former SOA president Tom Kalinske told us about the internal competition between the American and Japanese branches of the company, and how there was a certain level of resentment by Japan over America’s success. What was your relationship with Japan like? How involved were they in the decision-making process?Nick Alexander: The relationship between Sega Europe (SOE) and SOJ was complex and at times very challenging. The best example would be the Game Gear. Japan was very keen to achieve bigger numbers for this system. However, we had a negative gross margin from memory of -11%. Every one that we sold we lost more money. In order to sell more than originally planned we would have to reduce the price, increase the marketing, or increase the value of packs. All of these would increase our loss per unit even further. I had a long debate with Japan about this which culminated in the instruction to sell more units but not increase the losses. Clearly impossible if Japan would not reduce its price to us, which it would not. It was at this point that I decided to move on.Sega-16: Was there ever any situation where the rivalry between the American and Japanese branches affected Europe specifically?Nick Alexander: Our skills were in marketing, sales and distribution, theirs were in product design and development. This was not always understood. This inevitably led to some disagreement and confusion. I suspect that we had similar issues to the ones that Tom Kalinske had to deal with at SOA.
I believe that the July date was when his resignation was made public. Did he not make it known behind closed doors 6 months prior, that he was leaving? I know that he already had a job lined up when he left, so it wasn’t like this was some sort of immediate decision.
*Edit. Just checked out. He remained on the board until September, so it appears that July was when he let them know he was leaving.
Great article! A predatory and deeply psychopathic outfit as Sony would have destroyed Sega in the end anyway. It was smart for nintendo and Sega to turn Sony down.
Nice! Thanks for the info. For anybody else that's interested:Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bluhdorn
Rather than get sidetracked on this "Tom is a liar" stuff, let's get to the real point. The point that Kalinske has continuously focused on is: Was the Japanese management of Sega incompetent? There are so many quotes from him alluding to and outright stating that they were incompetent that I don't think it's necessary to list them here. He cycles through the same several stories: the Sega-Sony partnership, the SGI deal, the Saturn launch, etc. All intended as examples of not just differences, but incompetency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
However, we have people such as Sega founder David Rosen, who was likely in a better position than anyone to truly know, saying the following:
What we're talking about are the kind of differences and misunderstandings that you would expect in any international company. The same can be said for the quote from Nick Alexander. Who would ever doubt that in a worldwide company composed of thousands of employees that the main office wouldn't make decisions that sparked disagreement and resentment?Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosen
But where is the incompetency? Does Sega's failure as a consumer hardware company indicate incompetency, or just that they were overcome by bigger players?
To return to the focus of this thread, I hoped to provide more insight into why Sega decided not to work with Sony. This is what has been missing from discussions of Sega's history for a long time now: moving away from the idea that incompetency explains everything because one person says so, and looking for some real answers as to why certain decisions were made.
Yeah, SEGA made the right choice. We saw what happened to Psygnosis.
Nakayama stepped down 1st and Tom followed and you're list issues that all will have subsidiaries will have, not least Tom with issues over what game would be packed in with the Genesis. SONY America had battles with SONY Japan over the pricing of the PS and the name, with SONY America wanting to keep the PS-X name. Nick didn't leave SOE till 94, quite a number of years after the GG hit Europe and in the interview with a UK gaming mag in 1995, he sighted his love of Journalism and music, no more long Haul's to Japan, less pressure as the reason for him stepping down. In the same interview mind, he also praised the worth ethic of SOJ & America,(how Japan busted a gutt to get more Mega Drive and Sonic stock for Easter rush) and that the 32X would go on to dominate the sales .Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
All bosses will have pressures of hitting targets and worries over costs. If Nick really felt that was the reason, why stay on untill 94 when the GameGear launched in 91 in Europe.
I small genuine mistake (like you haven't made mistake), Harrison, not only joined SONY in the early 90's , he was the one charged with getting developers on board the system in Europe, the man who was showing off the SONY hardware and where Archer Maclean gave the famous interview to Edge where he said, he seen the 'future of gaming'. Harrsion told EDGE that SONY screwed with SEGA and only used them to help get some development known how on CD development and while SEGA was boasting about Ground Zero Texas, Harrion laughed and said he and a small team were showing off developers SONY's PS Hardware and asking them to become developers for SONY Platform and leave SEGA and NintendoQuote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
There wasn't a SONY video games division in SONY Japan, it all part of the music division. SONY Imagesoft also worked with Nintendo, it was only a Publisher (and I believe one of its 1st ever games was thanks to a UK developer and on a Nintendo system) most of its the game published were either what was on the Snes or Digital Pictures knock off FMV products and unlike with SEGA Nintendo already had SONY hardware in its 16 bit system and was looking to SONY to provide the CD-Drive for the SNES. If there was any corp with access to SONY Hardware, it was Nintendo and indeed it was the only corp either to be locked into SONY hardware for a console.
You show me in any interview from High ups at SONY or SEGA either with current staff or ex-staff where SEGA had access to SONY's PS chipset. SONY does all its R&D in Japan and in 1990/1 There was no SONY Computer Entertainment, the team that was working on the PlayStation hardware were tiny and could only work on one project; where that team offered it's Hardware to SEGA America. I would put to you that SONY didn't want SEGA to handle its hardware, but instead to actually make games for its own console. For sure SEGA Japan turned down the Lynx, the N64 Chipset and twice the 3DO M2 and if we listen to staff at 3DO that was down to a bust-up with SOJ and Panasonic over where logos were to be placed, but not for once were SEGA offered a SONY chipset that could power the main hardware of a console
And remind me again why did Olaf leave SONY?. I think resigned after bust-ups with SONY Japan over pricing and such bust up's made SONY Japan fire SONY America's Jim Whims at pretty much the same time as Tom leaving SEGA. Its not just SEGA that will have heated issues over pricing and costs
Can't we ban this guy already?
Only having a debate (on topic too). Genuine sorry if that offends you.Quote:
Originally Posted by zyrobs
Yes but it's the same old tired debate over and over again, ad infinitum in every single Sega/Sony/Nintendo thread. We get it, you hate Tom Kalinske. Although he didn't have an eye for quality games per se, he was a master of marketing tactics and did Sega a whole lot of good in the early 90's. I'm a big fan of his. Did he get everything right? Hell no, but then hindsight is a wonderful thing. We can agree to disagree regarding Kalinske, but my advice to you is to just change the record once in a while TA, people will thank you for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
You see this is what I dislike. I don't hate Tom K all the time I dislike the fact that he lies and spins over the Saturn. I've praised him and SEGA America for doing a far better job with the Mega CD than SEGA Japan and for standing up to SOJ over Sonic and using it in a pack title (one of the best moves and Tom using his skill as a sales person)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey
This Topic is actually about what sort of Hardware SEGA was offered, is it not ?
I've never seen any staff member of SEGA including all the key technical people at SEGA America - Scott Bayless, Marty Franz or Joe Miller, or SEGA Europe's - Mike Brogan ever say they could have worked with SONY and we've seen the Interview with Hideki Sato who said he was shocked at SONY entering the market and the power of the chipset - he was the man with total say on all SEGA consumer Hardware fullstop . Edge has done 2 features on the making of the PS with staff from SONY Japan (including the maker of the PS ken), Europe and US and none of them ever say, SONY looked to work with SEGA, . All say after Nintendo pulled the deal, a decision from the very top of SONY Japan. was made to go it alone and chart SONY's own coruse.
Unless you or other's can prove otherwise via staff from SEGA or SONY who were at key positions at the time? I genuinely like to read it, but sorry I think there's little factual evidence that can back up Tom claim of a possible partnership with SONY making the Hardware for SEGA's next console.
I'm not arguing anything or trying to prove anything to you. I'm not interested in all these alternate history 'what if' scenarios involving Sega. What happened, happened. All I'm trying to say is that people are getting tired of these endless debates where you just keep repeating yourself over and over again, page after page of the same argument that never goes anywhere or convinces anyone of anything. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, I'm just asking you to please not turn every Sega/Sony/Nintendo thread into a 35 page long diatribe. Lighten up a bit, yeah? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Maybe they never mentioned the Sega/Sony deal because it was a strictly confidential, internal matter. Or because it would have seriously hammered public perception in both of them at the time. Or because it was one of the 101 experiments they tried that never got off the ground. Do not underestimate how polite Japanese people are especially when it comes to a cause - they expect to be given their body and soul to it, and that means they are not allowed to say certain things.
Does that rule out the fact that they could have had deals with each other? No it doesn't, perhaps they were even more shocked because Sony went ahead on their own without a partnership and without any experience. Not any stranger than when Microsoft entered the market, or how Google is trying to do that right now.Quote:
we've seen the Interview with Hideki Sato who said he was shocked at SONY entering the market
Perhaps they were shocked in anger, because they talked about mergers before. From this new interview, it feels to me that SOJ had their pride hurt by Sony. And that could have been why they turned down Kalinske's attempt at joint development, out of spite. So Sony announcing they'll go their own way would have indeed been shocking.
You are so cemented into your own narrative that you can't accept anything else that may alter it in any way. Even things that would fit perfectly into it. Or you just straight up ignore facts, like the interviews posted *right now* that talk about the deal.
I can get that, but this topic thread really is all about 'what if'. EDGE has done 2 features on the making of the PS and its journey of creation with key members of the Japan staff. I've seen quite a few interviews with Scott Bayless, and a couple with Marty Franz or Joe Miller and Mike Brogan: All key technical people at SEGA America or Europe at the time. We've seen an interview with the main person in charge of all SEGA's consumer and Arcade hardware for over 30 years of SEGA's Hardware, with Hideki Sato. None say SEGA had a chance to work with SONY hardware to power SEGA's consolesQuote:
Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey
And yet one is expected to believe only Tom's recount of events? That's my issues. I like to see proof from key people at SEGA or SONY in the late 80's and early 90's that can back up Tom's claims until then, they are just claims and not facts
The timing is key Hideki Sato wasn't just shocked SONY was to enter the market (it had been rumoured) he was shocked the tech spec's. That's points to SEGA Japan learning of the specs near the end of the PS development cycle when most of the key tech spec had been settled on. If SEGA had been working with SONY prior, then one would imagine SEGA would know what spec's SONY was aiming for, what sort of components would be used and get a gage of a spec that could be offered and how to supply the console pipeline development.Quote:
Originally Posted by zyrobs
So given that SEGA Japan was caught off guard with its pants down on the tech spec's, I don't buy it sorry.
At the time maybe, not now otherwise, we wouldn't know of Tom's recollection. But console development isn't cheap and I'm sure SEGA Japan would have taken an interest why SEGA America was spending loads of its dosh on a confidential, internal matter with-in SEGA America if it really was working with SONY America. That's then to overlook Sony America had no R&D and the Japanese staff made it quite clear to EDGE, in their features, that after Nintendo did the dirty there were told to go it alone from the very top of SONY Japan, the then president.Quote:
Maybe they never mentioned the Sega/Sony deal because it was a strictly confidential, internal matter
And why did Miller not talk of a SONY partnership, or Scot Bayless or Marty Fran; who have in the pasted talk of various projects SEGA were working on or how SGI offered SEGA the N64 chipset? Never did one ever talked of a SONY possible deal?
Why do you think their pride was hurt? They had preliminary discussions that never resulted in anything. I didn't translate this part, but Sato says that such discussions of partnerships happened every so often from different companies and almost never resulted in anything. I think Sega would have liked to partner with Sony due to the hardware/manufacturing advantages, but not if the terms weren't clear and balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by zyrobs
This is probably too much work to correct, but I think you are not understanding the basic concepts of what Kalinske has suggested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Nowhere has he said that he or anyone else at Sega/Sony of America had access to ANY information on the PlayStation or its chipset (you seem to be the only one suggesting and then refuting that in this thread).
What he HAS said is that he and Olafsson/Schulhoff got together, discussed a possible partnership, and put together some kind of basic design doc to present to the people in Japan.
So, they go to Japan, and Kalinske brings up the idea of working with Sony to the Sega execs, and they tell him that's not going to work. Of course, what Kalinske doesn't know is that Sega has already been in talks with Sony and decided that a partnership won't be to their benefit.
That's entirely believable, and really, given the lack of details, what is there to disagree with? I'm sure they spent a lot of their time pursuing potential business leads, most of which didn't materialize, and this is just one that stuck out in Kalinske's mind.
Were Kalinske, Olafsson, and Schulhoff way out of their element? Likely. I think it must have been very hard for someone like Kalinske to not be in full control of the company and not be in the loop on things that were going on in Japan.
The trouble with that set of events was Olafsson already knew of the PS and that team were locked into a deal with Nintendo and that would exclude SEGA Japan from working with SONY and why I would put to you SEGA Japan went to the likes of JVC for the Mega CD drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryson
But more to the point there's the real issue of no one inside SEGA or SONY supporting Tom's recollection of events, that's more of the issue; Donald Trump might like to paint a different picture to history, doesn't mean he's right... just because he's said so
And just look at the PlayStation. The name was kept from the SNES PlayStation system the PS logo the same colour as the Super Famicom, The grills on the side much like the Super Famicom, The Colour of the system the same and the PS Joypad almost the exact same button layout.
Its screams Nintendo and nothing at all to do with SEGA at almost every level
What? Any discussions between Sega and Sony occurred after Sony broke off with Nintendo. Your statement about Olafsson doesn't make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
That fact that nobody else has confirmed Kalinkse's statements doesn't negate them. If anything, it just shows how minor/undeveloped the ideas were. But that doesn't contradict what he's said. He's never claimed it was some grand, fully-developed plan that they worked on for months.
To be blunt, unless you have concrete evidence (and by now it's clear that you don't), please stop accusing Tom Kalinske of having fabricated his statements about trying to partner with Sony.
It really, really does not contribute to the discussion.
If anything, you should take issue with Kalinske saying this was "the stupidest decision in the history of business." Trying to refute him with baseless accusations isn't going to get you anywhere.
Thank for you just debating and all in nice good faith. What I would put to you if this was at the time of the deal broke off (in 91) Then in the Edge Feature on the making of PS (conducted with various SONY staff) the decision not to work with anyone at all, was made by Ohga (SONY Japan then president) who said we (SONY) must chart our own course in 1991. So that would have put pay to any hope SEGA would have had of working with SONY.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryson
When I look at the PS, its seems a BIG Fu*k You! to Nintendo..
SONY kept the name of the system and pretty much ripped off the look of the Super Famicom and went hell for leather to upstage Nintendo. If you or other's can show and point to interviews of how SEGA could have for various SEGA or SONY staff, then fair enough. I don't think Tom was being straight that's all, on this matter, much like Tony Blair can still say Iraq had weapons of Mass Destruction :). I liked what Tom did with the Mega CD, quite a lot of what he did with the Mega Drive and tbh if he had stayed on, Working Designs would have still be on the Saturn and I'm sure Tom would have green light a Saturn Translation of Grandia. This isn't just about hating on Tom (I hate Bernie Stolar and Scoichiro Irimajiri far more tbh)
It's just on a point of truth and how really is telling the truth. I get (and I am sorry) that people hate my guts and want me banned for not liking Tom, but by the same token I happen to like SEGA Japan and credit Hayao Nakayama for giving me the SEGA I loved; and while I'm not happy with the equally stuck record of 'SEGA Japan blamed for everything' I don't call for bans or hate on others. I look to defend Sega Japan and just point out why I think it's wrong, not true or faith. In this case, I don't think SOJ is to blame
I don't see the evidence that shows SEGA could have had SONY make its console Hardware for the 32bit generation, that's all. But there's always a smoking gun somewhere
To be blunt you really think this is true?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryson
https://i.imgur.com/M2W4nLj.jpg
Can you point to any interview with Joe Miller that could back up?
AgreedQuote:
Originally Posted by zyrobs
I was referring to the part where they sat down to talk about joining forces to beat Nintendo. Then the Sony guy starts talking about his last vacation in Sweden or that time he was allowed to conduct an orchestra, and he keeps changing the subject every single time he is asked about working together. That deal would've meant a lot to Sega since it could've allowed them to beat their arch-rival Nintendo, and the Sony guy treats the whole discussion as a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryson
It feels just insulting, really.
Nobody hates you and nobody wants you banned for liking Tom Kalinske, that's ludicrous. Also nobody 'blames Sega of Japan for everything', at least I don't! (sigh) This is the last time I get involved in these 'debates' as those of you who seem to have the biggest problem with TA, and these debates going around and around in frigging circles, seem to be the same people instigating and inciting these 'debates' in the first place. Have fun! I'm off to get drunk and play games. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Very interesting article. Always love hearing from Sato-san. Is this information from the Japanese retrospective on Sato that was translated a few months ago?
Yeah, I see what you mean. Well, the only reason both sides met was because Sega chairman Okawa set it up, so there's a real possibility that Ohga wasn't at all interested and was just doing his friend a favor. Of course, the whole story of how he almost bought Sega ten years before makes it sound like he was trying to remind Sega of its place relative to Sony.Quote:
Originally Posted by zyrobs
This is from the same 100+ page interview he did last year. It really is one of the best treasure troves of Sega lore ever documented, but it's a bit of a slog to get through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades
No doubt various corps had a look at SEGA when Gulf Western put it up for Sale. That would just be a standard business practiceQuote:
Of course, the whole story of how he almost bought Sega ten years
So why Sato-san so surprised at the SONY tech? If like, we are led to believe Tom meet not only with Sony Japan, but SEGA Japan to offer a SONY made a console for SEGA?. Can you provide an interview or quote from Joe Miller that even comes close to backing Tom up? I saw more than 2 interviews with Joe, that confirm he and SOA had the N64 chipset (and also with the makers of the hardware too) and that he wasn't quite happy that it was turned down by SEGA Japan, but nothing on working with SONY what so-ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryson