Doom on the Saturn

Here's the Edge interview that this was discussed. Carmack clearly says he had to rewrite the 3D code on the RISC processors running in software, as Trekkies says. Just more evidence of TA talking out of his ass .. as usual. :rofl:


https://i.ibb.co/fMYJFcM/Jag-Doom-Interview-pg1.jpg



https://i.ibb.co/x8Pq4c6/Jag-Doom-Interview-pg2.jpg

Edit: For extra ownage I've uploaded the quotes from Jim Bagley on the development of the Saturn version of Doom, courtesy of Retrogamer. In it he clearly states that he was required to use software rendering like how the PC did it, he also said that he used both SH2s and used the 68000 in the Saturn to "orchestrate them". Sounds strangely like how the Jag version worked as well. Who da thought it huh TA?

https://i.ibb.co/6R99YXj/RG-Saturn-Doom-quote.jpg

There’s some clear misunderstandings going on with both sides here.

Carmack only nixed using horrible uncorrected polygons for Doom. Of course Bagley got 60 FPS with “hardware mode,” he was bypassing a key component of the Doom engine, a built-in perspective correction. The PSX could’ve probably gotten 120 FPS if it rendered everything as GTE polygons, even though it would look awful.

Bagley really did the worst job of all the Doom ports. Game speed was fudged to make it seem like it was running faster than it is, audio was broken and simply recorded from a live PlayStation, and the SH2s used mediocre.

The Jag was an excellent port for the hardware. Yes, both are using software rendering as we understand the term today, but the Saturn left most of the advantages of its architecture (like the DSP’s fast matrix calculations) completely untouched while the Jag was even using the processor dedicated to sound for collision detection.

Just lazy. I definitely believe the Saturn could pull off a good port of Doom “in software,” it’s just never been tried and probably never will be.

Carmack did the right thing IMO.

Lets leave it at this

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Given the time and freedom, yes, I’d have done a better version of Doom than the PlayStation version, and it would have looked better than the PC version too. I know for a fact, as it did look better.

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Thanks for nothing John

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Originally Posted by SegaDreamcast

Anyone else hyped for Doom 64's rerelease? I thought it was awesome back in the day, ambient soundtrack by Aubrey Hodges was especially memorable and I always liked pre-rendered graphics.

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Yes I am. I never had the chance to play Doom 64 back in the day, but I heard how good it was and am looking forward to playing the re-release. :)

Done some googling.

John Carmack confirmed that he had the game rewritten as he hated "affine texture swim and integral quad verts". However he admitted that he should of probably allowed experimentation.

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/st...28531950665728

As for using the Saturn's DSPs, Bagley had this to say:

Quote: "Be thankful I didn't do the rendering using the heavily bottlenecked DSPs that Carmack suggested, it would have been a lot slower having to transfer data in and out constantly through the 2K+2K DSPs"

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1580057

Carmack could make the Jaguar DSPs work despite that limitation, and some other Saturn games use it without problems... then again I don't know what code they could or could not run on it.

edit: also, comparing any programmer to Carmack is pretty unfair. It's like comparing a piano player to Liszt or Beethoven. So yeah, maybe the DSPs truly would not have helped, since they would have been too difficult to utilize.

TT used the DSP on Sonic R without issues. The creator made a whole video on his YouTube channel about how great it was.

Bagley is a textbook example of a below average developer given a task he could never have done considering the demanding hardware and software. Whoever heard of getting a job porting a game because you “played it a lot during lunch??” The blame is 50% id’s considering how they were whoring out Doom at this point (3DO).

Here’s the video. The DSP handles a large chunk of the 3D math in Sonic R. Bottlenecked indeed...

https://youtu.be/n8plen8cLro

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Originally Posted by Blades

TT used the DSP on Sonic R without issues. The creator made a whole video on his YouTube channel about how great it was.

Bagley is a textbook example of a below average developer given a task he could never have done considering the demanding hardware and software. Whoever heard of getting a job porting a game because you “played it a lot during lunch??” The blame is 50% id’s considering how they were whoring out Doom at this point (3DO).

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He's hardly that. Mr Bagley was able to push the ZX Spectrum in nothing more than software rendering Sonic R might have been a good example were it not for the game also making use of the VDP1 as well to the software effects, with little polygon folding it should be added.
I've read some interviews with the late great Fergus McGovern where he lied to the IP holder's to get a contract (im sure he lied to SEGA over Master system Chess) and Rage had handle early Saturn ports quite well to the Saturn, for EA and Codemasters

In the end it really doesn't matter. John Carkmarck even said in a Tweet he was wrong not to allow Jim to experiment. Not doubt why John didn't have many issues with Lobotomy using the VDP1 for Quake or didn't seem to care for the warping in the PS version of Quake 2.

I would have rathered a game with a little a bit of warping, but with all the detail and running at 60 fps to what we got with Saturn Doom.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

It's still using the custom chips. If Jim was allowed to use the custom chips of the Saturn, we would have had a Doom port with all the GFX of the PS/PC versions running at 60 fps.

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The custom jaguar chips are CPUs, so it's still software rendering on the Jaguar. And Jim did use VDP1.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

So insulting and so nasty, what a horrible thing to say.

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There was nothing nasty in there, just cold hard truth. Take the time to read peoples posts and you won't get such "nasty" posts thrown at you.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

We are talking weeks and since you reference EDGE, In that very interview John hadn't even started work on the 32X version at that time

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Even more evidence that the 32X version was rushed then while the Jaguar version had more time in the oven.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

So why was Jim version using the '3D hardware' able to run at 60 fps? Where was the chokepoint of the VDP1 in Jim's code

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No one has ever seen it so we don't know what it actually looked like or did. All we have is his word that it ran at 60fps. That said, it was probably rendering a low number of large quads. While that may look fine in static screenshots, once you start moving things are going to start distorting all over the place. Which is probably why Carmack nixed it. On Saturn and PS1 you need to use smaller polygons to make up things so you get less texture warping. As things get closer to the camera, you need to subdivide the polygons more to further reduce instances of warping. You can actually see this behavior in a game like Wipeout running in wireframe mode:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8yLq45tDGc

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Originally Posted by Blades

TT used the DSP on Sonic R without issues. The creator made a whole video on his YouTube channel about how great it was.

Bagley is a textbook example of a below average developer given a task he could never have done considering the demanding hardware and software. Whoever heard of getting a job porting a game because you “played it a lot during lunch??” The blame is 50% id’s considering how they were whoring out Doom at this point (3DO).

Here’s the video. The DSP handles a large chunk of the 3D math in Sonic R. Bottlenecked indeed...

https://youtu.be/n8plen8cLro

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It's more that there's only so many things you can use the DSP effectively for. If things aren't timed properly across memory, the different CPUs, etc. it can result in unexpected results and become a nightmare. On top of it all, in a lot of cases it's for little gain.

Stop arguing with the retarded child, you'll only end up upsetting yourself. Do yourself a favour and block him.

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Originally Posted by Blades

TT used the DSP on Sonic R without issues. The creator made a whole video on his YouTube channel about how great it was.

Bagley is a textbook example of a below average developer given a task he could never have done considering the demanding hardware and software. Whoever heard of getting a job porting a game because you “played it a lot during lunch??” The blame is 50% id’s considering how they were whoring out Doom at this point (3DO).

Here’s the video. The DSP handles a large chunk of the 3D math in Sonic R. Bottlenecked indeed...

https://youtu.be/n8plen8cLro

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The DSP is limited in what it can do. 3D matrix math is one thing it excels at, because that's something that can take advantage of the strong points of the DSP - the ability to run multiple instructions simultaneously and to output 48-bit operands. If you can't take advantage of the chips parallel nature, then it won't be faster than the SH2, in fact it might even be slower.
We can't tell if the Doom engine has anything in it that can be processed in a way to take advantage of the DSP. Perhaps someone who looked into the Jaguar versions code (if that one is even public) could tell more on how that works, for comparisons sake.

As for Saturn Doom with VDP1 hardware polygons being able to reach 60fps - AFAIK the Doom engine, due to the nature of how it works, occludes all off-screen polygons and only draws EXACTLY what is on screen. In other words, there is zero overdraw, not counting the sprites. The VDP1 should be capable of drawing as much as one screens worth of pixels at 60 frames per second, so I find this conceivable. But according to that coder, it looked good and by that I can assume it didn't have affine tearing, so I can only wonder what exactly they did to get 60fps. Maybe the fact that both engines output quads would slightly reduce the problem (not eliminate it, just reduce it so it's bearable).

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

Stop arguing with the retarded child, you'll only end up upsetting yourself. Do yourself a favour and block him.



The DSP is limited in what it can do. 3D matrix math is one thing it excels at, because that's something that can take advantage of the strong points of the DSP - the ability to run multiple instructions simultaneously and to output 48-bit operands. If you can't take advantage of the chips parallel nature, then it won't be faster than the SH2, in fact it might even be slower.
We can't tell if the Doom engine has anything in it that can be processed in a way to take advantage of the DSP. Perhaps someone who looked into the Jaguar versions code (if that one is even public) could tell more on how that works, for comparisons sake.

As for Saturn Doom with VDP1 hardware polygons being able to reach 60fps - AFAIK the Doom engine, due to the nature of how it works, occludes all off-screen polygons and only draws EXACTLY what is on screen. In other words, there is zero overdraw, not counting the sprites. The VDP1 should be capable of drawing as much as one screens worth of pixels at 60 frames per second, so I find this conceivable. But according to that coder, it looked good and by that I can assume it didn't have affine tearing, so I can only wonder what exactly they did to get 60fps. Maybe the fact that both engines output quads would slightly reduce the problem (not eliminate it, just reduce it so it's bearable).

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Apparently the source code for the Jag version of Doom was released to the public by John Carmack himself and Songbird Productions.



https://atariage.com/forums/topic/25...code-released/


https://www.atariage.com/Jaguar/archives/DoomSource/

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

Stop arguing with the retarded child, you'll only end up upsetting yourself. Do yourself a favour and block him.

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I know, I just can't stand so much stupid being posted as facts.

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

The DSP is limited in what it can do. 3D matrix math is one thing it excels at, because that's something that can take advantage of the strong points of the DSP - the ability to run multiple instructions simultaneously and to output 48-bit operands. If you can't take advantage of the chips parallel nature, then it won't be faster than the SH2, in fact it might even be slower.

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Even then the stars need to align just right. Some homebrew developers on SegaXtreme have been getting annoyed trying to use the thing. Even when they use Sega's own code and use it for 3D Matrix Math like it's designed to be used for, they barely see any performance increases on real hardware.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

The custom jaguar chips are CPUs, so it's still software rendering on the Jaguar. And Jim did use VDP1.

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Jim was told to make Saturn Doom like the PC and use the CPU. That was not the process id used for the Jaguar.

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Even more evidence that the 32X version was rushed then while the Jaguar version had more time in the oven

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Yeah, that's a fair comment. I think both were rushed and both had issues over Cart space too.

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You can actually see this behavior in a game like Wipeout running in wireframe mode

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It was more of an issue for the PS. We aren't on about a full 3D game like Wipout that was built around the PS hardware. But a 1994 PC game and one that could run half decent on a 33Mh 486.
Really, how much Polygon folding did you see in Exhumed on Saturn. It is so minimal one doesn't really notice it, very much true for Alien Trilogy on the Saturn, compared to the PS.
The Saturn version should have been a lot better, I would have rathered a Saturn version running so much better (even if we need to take 60 fps with a pinch of salt) with a little warping.

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No one has ever seen it so we don't know what it actually looked like or did. All we have is his word that it ran at 60fps

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That's fair enough. But John Carmack even said in his tweet to Jim that he should have allowed him to experiment after the story broke in RetroGamer

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@PeterBridger

@JimBagley69
I hated affine texture swim and integral quad verts, but in hindsight, I probably should have let experiment.

@ID_AA_Carmack
No worries John, you guys were paying for the conversion and that's how you wanted it done. At least now I know why :D

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There was nothing nasty in there, just cold hard truth

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In an age of #Benice and it in the news. It's so sick for you to even bring it up. And for what? Disagreement over games...

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

edit: also, comparing any programmer to Carmack is pretty unfair. It's like comparing a piano player to Liszt or Beethoven.

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That depends. I thought good old Geoff Crammond was the best programmer of his day on the PC and Microcomputers.
Still, none of them can hold a candle to Hidetoshi Takeshitam, the best programmer around in the 32Bit gen ;) :P

TA, could you please stop breathing?

Not even for too long, just maybe 15 minutes or so.

Can you people behave. Wishing death for something as silly as TEXTURE WARPING IN DOOM is nonsense.

Oh what could have been, but what was.

It's a shame the development tools are all for archaic hardware. It'd be fun to give this notorious DSP and the mischievous SH2 siblings a go in old-fashioned low level code.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Jim was told to make Saturn Doom like the PC and use the CPU. That was not the process id used for the Jaguar.

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It was definitely the process on the Jaguar. The Jaguar version is still using software rendering on the RISC CPUs. And just to put this to bed, here is proof that Doom on Saturn is using VDP1 to draw the walls, and that VDP1 is infact the choke point:

Doom With VDP1 disabled, VDP2 enabled:
https://i.imgur.com/VphLles.png

VDP2 disabled, VDP1 enabled:
https://i.imgur.com/WtN0d6z.png

So there you have it, Doom on Saturn IS using VDP1 to draw almost everything. Hexen runs better because it does the opposite. VDP1 draws very little, and VDP2 draws the bulk of it.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

It was more of an issue for the PS. We aren't on about a full 3D game like Wipout that was built around the PS hardware. But a 1994 PC game and one that could run half decent on a 33Mh 486.

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Warping is an issue on the Saturn too, it just happens a little differently. It happens more when polygons get closer to the edges of the screen.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Really, how much Polygon folding did you see in Exhumed on Saturn. It is so minimal one doesn't really notice it, very much true for Alien Trilogy on the Saturn, compared to the PS.

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Because those games do a ton of subdividing to try and hide it. And they target 30fps but usually have dips below that. They're not doing 60fps. The only way you'd be getting 60fps in an FPS would be if you were using huge quads to lower the number of quads being used, and that would result in a ton of warping. Again see this attempt at doing just that on the 3DO, which renders similarly to the Saturn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ytaHm7ABk

Look at around 6:30 when he turns on the polygon rendering engine. The doors really look bad with all that warping. I'd imagine that's close to what this fabled beta version of Doom looked like, if not worse.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

The Saturn version should have been a lot better, I would have rathered a Saturn version running so much better (even if we need to take 60 fps with a pinch of salt) with a little warping.

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I'd say take the whole account of how this fabled beta looked and ran with a massive dose of salt.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

In an age of #Benice and it in the news. It's so sick for you to even bring it up. And for what? Disagreement over games...

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Take the time to read posts and understand what's being said then. Do you have any idea how exhausting it can be debating with you when myself and others have to keep repeating ourselves because you don't take the time to read something properly and jump to the wrong conclusions or put words in our mouths?

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Originally Posted by Blades

It's a shame the development tools are all for archaic hardware. It'd be fun to give this notorious DSP and the mischievous SH2 siblings a go in old-fashioned low level code.

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Hop on the SegaXtreme discord. There's plenty of people there who can help you get started if you want to tinker around.

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Originally Posted by Blades

Can you people behave. Wishing death for something as silly as TEXTURE WARPING IN DOOM is nonsense.

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True, that was a bit over the line. Clearly it's not the right way to deal with the situation. I apologize.

I mean, he can still type and post here even with his breath held.

Can we wish that TA's internet connection gets turned off for a undetermined period of time instead? :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Blades

Can you people behave. Wishing death for something as silly as TEXTURE WARPING IN DOOM is nonsense.

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You gotta admit, that was funny!

Some people are really trying too hard with that edge.

Too much edge can give oneself a very unsightly cut

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

TA, could you please stop breathing?

Not even for too long, just maybe 15 minutes or so.

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Deal, as long as you stop pretending to be a Saturn fan :daze:

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

It was definitely the process on the Jaguar. The Jaguar version is still using software rendering on the RISC CPUs. And just to put this to bed, here is proof that Doom on Saturn is using VDP1 to draw the walls, and that VDP1 is infact the choke point:

Doom With VDP1 disabled, VDP2 enabled:
https://i.imgur.com/VphLles.png

VDP2 disabled, VDP1 enabled:
https://i.imgur.com/WtN0d6z.png

So there you have it, Doom on Saturn IS using VDP1 to draw almost everything. Hexen runs better because it does the opposite. VDP1 draws very little, and VDP2 draws the bulk of it.



Warping is an issue on the Saturn too, it just happens a little differently. It happens more when polygons get closer to the edges of the screen.



Because those games do a ton of subdividing to try and hide it. And they target 30fps but usually have dips below that. They're not doing 60fps. The only way you'd be getting 60fps in an FPS would be if you were using huge quads to lower the number of quads being used, and that would result in a ton of warping. Again see this attempt at doing just that on the 3DO, which renders similarly to the Saturn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ytaHm7ABk

Look at around 6:30 when he turns on the polygon rendering engine. The doors really look bad with all that warping. I'd imagine that's close to what this fabled beta version of Doom looked like, if not worse.



I'd say take the whole account of how this fabled beta looked and ran with a massive dose of salt.



Take the time to read posts and understand what's being said then. Do you have any idea how exhausting it can be debating with you when myself and others have to keep repeating ourselves because you don't take the time to read something properly and jump to the wrong conclusions or put words in our mouths?



Hop on the SegaXtreme discord. There's plenty of people there who can help you get started if you want to tinker around.

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Almost all Saturn games will have to use the VDP 1 to get the imagine on the screen..I agree to take the 60 Hz with a pinch of salt (was it at all times or in section) but the fact that John even acknowledge he might have been wrong , allows the possibility of Jim thinking was the the right approach.

All I know is the Doom game we got onthe Saturn was crap

Ok, I know of Polygon folding was a issue for the Saturn too
.but really , was it that bad In Exhumed, Deadlus or even something like Space Hulk on the Saturn?

Also I don't look to make fun or belittle anything to with someone ones mental health. Make fun of my spelling, crap English, silly facts, but leave the other stuff for the sickos on Twitter, where it belongs...

So having got the game and played through the first 9 levels on a high difficulty, I can report the following bits of useless information: Doom on the Saturn is basically Doom on the PS1 in slow motion. Being an old Doom pro I'm still having a blast with it, but only because I went into it with very low expectations. The picture is sharp, thanks to my CRT TV and scart cable, and the soundtrack, identical to the PS1 game, is superb and very atmospheric. The big negative is obviously the obscenely low frame rate. The highlight for me is the controls. Saturn Doom plays very nicely with the Saturn controller and, if you can overlook the fucked frame rate, there is some good old school Doom fun to be had...sort of. Also I got my Saturn copy of Doom in mint condition for less than £20! Honestly, my copy looks like it has never been opened and played, so there is that bonus too.

To balance the fact that the Saturn got a botched version of Doom, I would just like to point out to FPS fans that Space Hulk (the EA produced FPS based on the Games Workshop board game) got a superior version on the Saturn when compared to the PS1 port. Having played Space Hulk on the PS1 as a teen for many an hour, I can confirm that the Saturn port runs faster, and has improved music and sound effects not on the PS1 port. So there you go, swings and roundabouts. Every cloud... Plus Space Hulk is a lot scarier than Doom, if you ask me. ;)

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Almost all Saturn games will have to use the VDP 1 to get the imagine on the screen.

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Not really. You could skip VDP1 and have VDP2 draw the bulk of things like Hexen does. The point is, Doom is not only using VDP1, it's using it to draw the bulk of the scene. That there should tell you using VDP1 isn't enough, it's about how you use it. Doom on Saturn is using VDP1 in a very bad way. On PS1 it works, but on Saturn VDP1 doesn't have the fill rate to keep up and it becomes the choke point.

Now doing something like what Lobotomy did could have been nice. However, seeing has how he said he had it running at 60fps tells me he probably didn't do the extra things Lobotomy did to keep the texture warping down, which is probably why Carmack axed it.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Ok, I know of Polygon folding was a issue for the Saturn too
.but really , was it that bad In Exhumed, Deadlus or even something like Space Hulk on the Saturn?

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Because again those games make sacrifices to hide it. They subdivide the polygons to reduce the issue as things get closer to the camera. That also increases the polygon counts which in effect reduces frame rate. Those games target 30fps and in many cases are dipping below it.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Also I don't look to make fun or belittle anything to with someone ones mental health. Make fun of my spelling, crap English, silly facts, but leave the other stuff for the sickos on Twitter, where it belongs...

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If saying mean things about your reading comprehension is what it takes to get through to you then I'll do it. Instead of getting upset, take it as message to make a change for the better. From now on take the time to properly read things before responding, if you don't understand something ask for clarification. But if you continue to just reply quickly without reading or understanding half the post, then don't get mad when we start getting annoyed with you.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

The point is, Doom is not only using VDP1, it's using it to draw the bulk of the scene. That there should tell you using VDP1 isn't enough, it's about how you use it. Doom on Saturn is using VDP1 in a very bad way. On PS1 it works, but on Saturn VDP1 doesn't have the fill rate to keep up and it becomes the choke point.
.

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Yes, but only after John put a stop to using the Saturn custom GFX hardware, that wasn't the original plan.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Because again those games make sacrifices to hide it
.

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Like what? I don't see Exhumed has a lesser game or one that suffers from folding on the Saturn. Same for Space Hulk on the Saturn and that was from a engine based around 3DO quads.

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Instead of getting upset,

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I don't get upset I'm quite used to your insults. But beltlining Mental Health is not something thats nice on a gaming forum. You have got facts wrong yourself

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Yes, but only after John put a stop to using the Saturn custom GFX hardware, that wasn't the original plan.

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What do you think VDP1 is? It's the Saturn's custom GFX hardware.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Like what? I don't see Exhumed has a lesser game or one that suffers from folding on the Saturn. Same for Space Hulk on the Saturn and that was from a engine based around 3DO quads.

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I've stated this multiple times. If you had read more than the snippet you quoted you'd see I said exactly what sacrifices games like Exhumed made. But here, I highlighted the important part for you:

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Because again those games make sacrifices to hide it. They subdivide the polygons to reduce the issue as things get closer to the camera. That also increases the polygon counts which in effect reduces frame rate. Those games target 30fps and in many cases are dipping below it.

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As for Space Hulk, it moves the camera in very specific predefined movements. So it can more easily avoid that issue as well.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I don't get upset I'm quite used to your insults. But beltlining Mental Health is not something thats nice on a gaming forum. You have got facts wrong yourself

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You clearly are upset because you once again stopped reading and didn't get the take away from what I was saying. Once again I'll highlight it for you:

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

If saying mean things about your reading comprehension is what it takes to get through to you then I'll do it. Instead of getting upset, take it as message to make a change for the better. From now on take the time to properly read things before responding, if you don't understand something ask for clarification. But if you continue to just reply quickly without reading or understanding half the post, then don't get mad when we start getting annoyed with you.

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Seriously, work on your reading skills. This has been going on for years with you and I for one am sick and tired of it.

Game's probably more playable than the 3DO version, but not by much.

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Originally Posted by Raijin Z

According to some of what I've read, Carmack kept interfering with the development, not allowing the port to be a partial remake tuned to the Saturn's strengths.

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That's too bad, if true. Lobotomy Software proved what the Saturn was capable of when given an individualized effort!

Probably worth reading the thread...

Simplified summary:

-id hires Jim Bagley (Rage Software) to port Doom to the Saturn.
-Bagley creates a prototype that uses polygons but has affine texture warping.
-Carmack tells Bagley he hates affine texture warping and to avoid polygons in favor of perspective-correct texture mapping like the original Doom.
-Bagley either doesn't have enough time or skill to do the job well and ends up using the Saturn's VDP1 in a way that is inefficient.
-Hexen on the Saturn is an example of how Doom could have been done better.

Please correct me if I got anything wrong.

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Originally Posted by Gryson

Probably worth reading the thread...

Simplified summary:

-id hires Jim Bagley (Rage Software) to port Doom to the Saturn.
-Bagley creates a prototype that uses polygons but has lots of affine texture warping.
-Carmack tells Bagley he hates affine texture warping and to avoid polygons in favor of perspective-correct texture mapping like the original Doom.
-Bagley either doesn't have enough time or skill to do the job well and ends up using the Saturn's VDP1 in a way that is inefficient.
-Hexen on the Saturn is an example of how Doom could have been done better.

Please correct me if I got anything wrong.

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How do we know there was "a lot" of affine texture warping?

We still have never seen that version and it's not usually a problem on Saturn, especially in 1st person games and compared to typical Playstation games. Shining the Holy Ark looks like a Nintendo 64 ram pak game.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

How do we know there was "a lot" of affine texture warping?

We still have never seen that version and it's not usually a problem on Saturn, especially in 1st person games and compared to typical Playstation games. Shining the Holy Ark looks like a Nintendo 64 ram pak game.

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Good point. I assume it was at least noticeable to Carmack's eyes, but I'm not sure that means much to us normal people.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

How do we know there was "a lot" of affine texture warping?

We still have never seen that version and it's not usually a problem on Saturn, especially in 1st person games and compared to typical Playstation games. Shining the Holy Ark looks like a Nintendo 64 ram pak game.

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I think it's a fair assumption to make that it had noticeable warping for reasons already mentioned. There were very few (any?) 60fps first person shooters on the Saturn, and the smoothest ones tended to have corners cut somewhere. Simple level designs, for example, or as in the example you give, very short draw distances. Doom doesn't have the most complicated level designs but they're not particularly simple either, and short draw distances would have ruined the game. Given that, if the Doom port was 60fps it was likely using larger quads with less subdivision (or other techniques) in order to reduce workload. Larger quads = more warping when viewed at an angle.

No, the Saturn doesn't typically suffer from the same amount of warping as the PS1 due to not having to split square textures into triangles, but it's not free from it either. Duke Nukem 3D, for example, is held as being a very good port, but it runs at under 30fps a lot of the time and it has quite severe warping at points.

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Originally Posted by Gryson

Probably worth reading the thread...

Simplified summary:

-id hires Jim Bagley (Rage Software) to port Doom to the Saturn.
-Bagley creates a prototype that uses polygons but has affine texture warping.
-Carmack tells Bagley he hates affine texture warping and to avoid polygons in favor of perspective-correct texture mapping like the original Doom.
-Bagley either doesn't have enough time or skill to do the job well and ends up using the Saturn's VDP1 in a way that is inefficient.
-Hexen on the Saturn is an example of how Doom could have been done better.

Please correct me if I got anything wrong.

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I enjoyed Hexen on the N64. How does the Saturn version compare?

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

What do you think VDP1 is? It's the Saturn's custom GFX hardware.



I've stated this multiple times. If you had read more than the snippet you quoted you'd see I said exactly what sacrifices games like Exhumed made. But here, I highlighted the important part for you:





As for Space Hulk, it moves the camera in very specific predefined movements. So it can more easily avoid that issue as well.






Seriously, work on your reading skills. This has been going on for years with you and I for one am sick and tired of it.

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Darkon warned me years ago what a nasty piece of work, you really are ..I really should have heeded his advice, but I will now .

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Originally Posted by Silanda

I think it's a fair assumption to make that it had noticeable warping for reasons already mentioned. There were very few (any?) 60fps first person shooters on the Saturn, and the smoothest ones tended to have corners cut somewhere. Simple level designs, for example, or as in the example you give, very short draw distances. Doom doesn't have the most complicated level designs but they're not particularly simple either, and short draw distances would have ruined the game. Given that, if the Doom port was 60fps it was likely using larger quads with less subdivision (or other techniques) in order to reduce workload. Larger quads = more warping when viewed at an angle.

No, the Saturn doesn't typically suffer from the same amount of warping as the PS1 due to not having to split square textures into triangles, but it's not free from it either. Duke Nukem 3D, for example, is held as being a very good port, but it runs at under 30fps a lot of the time and it has quite severe warping at points.

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Works both ways and Duke was a different game to Doom with bigger environments and floors on top of floors . I don't really remember anyone saying the PS verison looked better thanks to less warping, In the same way I didn't see anyone saying the Saturn version of Alien Trilogy was looked better thanks to less warping. Duke on the PS also has issues with the Frame rate .

There's far more warping in Exhumed on the PS , but still not enough to hurt the game or distract the player and TBH I can't remember warping being a factor in Saturn Quake .

I would have put up with Warping if it meant a much better frame rate and a game that looked and moved better than the PS one

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Originally Posted by StuOhQ

I enjoyed Hexen on the N64. How does the Saturn version compare?

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Looks sharper (whether that's an improvement or not is a matter of personal taste), runs considerably worse, only has front facing sprites for the enemies.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Works both ways and Duke was a different game to Doom with bigger environments and floors on top of floors . I don't really remember anyone saying the PS verison looked better thanks to less warping, In the same way I didn't see anyone saying the Saturn version of Alien Trilogy was looked better thanks to less warping. Duke on the PS also has issues with the Frame rate .

There's far more warping in Exhumed on the PS , but still not enough to hurt the game or distract the player and TBH I can't remember warping being a factor in Saturn Quake .

I would have put up with Warping if it meant a much better frame rate and a game that looked and moved better than the PS one

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He just explained to you the same thing I explained to you. If Doom was running at 60fps on the Saturn the only way that could be possible is if it was using large quads and not subdividing them. That would lead to very bad texture warping. Almost all the games you've mentioned (Exhumed, Duke 3D, Quake, etc.) avoid the issue by subdividing the quads to make them smaller as the camera gets closer to them to avoid the issue. If you would actually take the time to read and understand posts you would have picked up on this a few pages ago.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Darkon warned me years ago what a nasty piece of work, you really are ..I really should have heeded his advice, but I will now .

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If you'd just work on your reading skills a bit, 90% of the problems you run into on this forum could be avoided. Also I'm puzzled about Darkon warning you about me considering I've never really interacted with him on these forums. Did you perhaps mean Drakon?