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That's so cool you have that and that it runs Doom at an acceptable rate. Kind of like the 32X version where you have a fast CPU added to a system with some performance bottlenecks but it still manages to look decent.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
It's very subtle. You only really see it on corners when you look at them just right. Digital Foundry touched on it in their Doom Port video.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades
Yeah but you're comparing mips between risc and cisc chips. Plus, the devil is in the details; cache (internal and secondary cache.. yes 486 supports secondary cache, but not all motherboards came with it), amount and speed of ram/bus, specific instructions that just happen to coincide with optimization on that app/game (i.e. the under whelming z80 excels at compositing certain graphics because of its auto-incrementing register pairs). Still, it'd be interesting to see what a sh2 could do with a bottleneck free frame buffer.Quote:
Originally Posted by axel
VLB has a 32bit bus, while ISA was 16bit (twice the bandwidth for cpu access to video memory), but video cards themselves also had different speed vrams (as well as dual port versions), which adds wait states to the cpu accessing local mapped video ram. That's probably more of an impact on higher resolutions because the cpu is copying over more data, but it's still a factor. But from what I remember, DOOM does multiple passes to draw a frame depending on the complexity (not just for sprites) - but I don't remember if they're using off pages/banks of vga ram directly (double buffer) or uses main ram for that???
@ TrekkiesUnite118
That 486SLC2 example is running an external 16bit data bus, and internally at 50mhz, but the 16k cache vs 8k cache of 486DX/DX2 processors probably helps even that out some. Still impressive for that setup (shear internal clock speed to over come the rest of the system interface). But not quite as smooth as the 384DX-40 +VLB setup that ran with the same windows size. What graphic detail are you running?
That was in low detail mode. Remember the 486SLC2 is just a 386SX with the 486 instructions added + 16k of cache, clock doubled up to 50MHz, and it doesn't have an FPU. You can install an i387 FPU which I have, but I don't think it makes much difference for Doom.Quote:
Originally Posted by turboxray
Yeah, I had to check but Doom doesn't use the FPU. But that clock doubled 486SLC is more than just a 386SX (the extra instructions on the 486 are for parallel processing setups - atomic instructions). It's the on-chip cache and pipelining that make it faster than the 386SX at the same speed, and the SLC having 16k over the standard 8k on base 486 chips is nice performance boost overall as well as in 16bit memory interface environment. The speed of memory and video memory really bottle necks that system.. which is why it has to run low-detail (multipass rendering). It probably really drops in frame rate in later levels. Impressive none the less haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Yeah, for what it is it's not bad. It's definitely playable. I would have loved to have been able to get a hold of the final upgrade board that was made for that PS/2 model which had an Intel Overdrive socket. With that I could put in a 486DX or possibly even a Pentium.Quote:
Originally Posted by turboxray
I'm happy to have generated so much discussion on this subject, even if everyone's techno talk is waaaaay over my head lol. In a nutshell I still find Saturn Doom somewhat playable...just. Doesn't stop it still being a hugely frustrating missed opportunity though.
Now use that newly found power and motivate someone to do a new Doom port on the Saturn haha. There's gotta be someone out there capable of this that just needs a little nudge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey
Also to keep in mind:Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
- PS1 version is running at 256 wide mode, which helps to save RAM and the Saturn doesn't have it.
PlayStation DOOM is awesome!
Despite how bad the framerate is, this was my main way to play Doom for years. The 32X version was fine for what it was, but it was more like Doom Lite than Doom (or perhaps Doom Light, given how bright everything is). I mean for fuck's sake, they didn't even include the BFG 9000. How the hell do you forget that?
I remember renting Saturn Doom from a Hastings store where I loved at the time, after hearing how bad the framerate was from magazines. But when I played it, the framerate didn't bother me that much. The game just made the 32X version feel so lacking by comparison, that I almost went to Walmart to cancel my layaway of Saturn Hexen so I could get Saturn Doom instead. I was talked out of it, though, and eventually got to grab Saturn Doom from that same Walmart a little while later.
I played Saturn Doom for weeks, having a blast as I did. Even though the framerate was pretty rough, Saturn Doom had so much more. Many more levels from Ultimate Doom, much of Doom II, the atmospheric lighting, more monster types, better sound (save for the busted stereo)... it had a lot more content. Sure, you had to put the sound into mono, and the framerate took a huge dive on some areas, but it was still better than the 32X version overall. Then a number of years later, Doom Collector's Edition came out for the PC around 2003, and that's when I finally got to play the original game. That meant the Saturn version got left behind, but even now, I still fire it up for shits and giggles once in a while.
The PSX version always stuck out to me as oddball because I just didn't like the sound design changes.
It is perhaps an acquired taste, but it just doesn't feel right having played the PC version first. Some of the sound samples were replaced with even more common sound library ones - like that pistol sound.. I can't get over some of those.
I feel like there must have been a bunch of disappointed players that also believe devs should have just ported the game as is. I remember the Doom 3 Collector's Edition on Xbox is the first console version of Doom that saw no changes and wasn't butchered technically.
Luckily they put that into every copy of Resurrection of Evil on the same platform with coop and everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Going a bit off-topic.
Interesting you mention that because I've noticed the same on a few Saturn titles and when I pointed out to people (not on this forum, elsewhere) usually I get no responses or nobody notices too.
From memory I think Powerslave is another case.
It's a bit disappointing given that there seems to be a bug on the game that reverts the saturn's audio settings to mono, regardless of the choice on the sound menus (the music can still be played on true stereo if playing the disc like a music cd).
It's a shame these bugs weren't corrected or raised interest to look for a possible fix.
The background music in Powerslave is absolutely stunning to listen on the Saturn in stereo.
Surely the other games would benefit from it and the playing experience would be enhanced.
I've noticed it with a few games too. IIRC King of Fighters '96, Advanced VG, Golden Axe - The Dual, and Night Striker S are all mono despite most having Stereo options. Night Striker might get a pass if the sound was originally mono in the arcade, but Golden Axe in particular just sounds dreadful downmixed to mono, with the background music being far too loud and distorted.Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaDriver
The Playstation's not immune to this problem either. Goketsuji Ichizoku 2 (Power Instinct 2) has mono and stereo options that don't seem to work.
I wonder if there is a way to force stereo sound setting, maybe with an action replay code?
I've never noticed mono sound on KOF 96, I should replay it
I just tested it emulated and it's mono (thought I might have got confused with KoF '97, but no), but I think I first noticed it because when I played it on my Saturn sound was only coming from the centre speaker. It doesn't have a mono/stereo option either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard
I've always wondered whether games like this were the same on all Saturns, or whether they worked properly on certain models. Golden Axe - The Dual sounds so bad through headphones that I don't know how the testers could have missed it.
Everyone remembers their first Doom experience. Mine was on 3DO, and I loved it.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
You know what I realized that's interesting. Defcon 5, on both Saturn and Playstation, suffers from almost no texture warping. And on Saturn it runs at almost the same framerate as Playstation, which is already very high and stable. Perhaps efficient software column-based rendering is very possible on Saturn as it was on Playstation.
https://youtu.be/27pE4VkTUXs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpHEjdkz4qQ
Thought I'd post this here since it's extremely relevant to this thread, plus I love SLX's work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep4O5voKaQk