Paprium: The Official Thread Mk 2

Blue's journey design, it is more in the style of a Marvel Land ( arcade version ).
Chiki chiki boys and caveman ninja, characters sprites have a sort of SD style, big head.
If we speak about design, first game of Alpha Denshi; Magician Lord is more well-known for his graphic than Ninja Combat or Raguy.
Between Metal Slug and Raguy, there is Spin Master that is Joe and Mac style and also Top Hunter that is a huge accomplishment on graphic department.

On megadrive, i am a huge fan of Ristar and Monster World 4 if we speak about graphics.
And Alien Soldier, back in 1995; it could be released in arcade.

I think this game is, more or less, at the same level of Sengoku 2, which is a good thing:

http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/neogeo/b/sengo2-14.png http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/neogeo/b/sengo2-3.png
http://paprium.com/skin/pics/papscreen1_small.jpg http://paprium.com/skin/pics/papscreen2_small.jpg

Must see clear/non-resized screens and more of it in movement first, though.

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Originally Posted by XeroShinobi

The Saturn had some visually fantastic 2D games. Aside from the excellent fighting game ports it received, it has a number of other interesting 2D games. I only recently learned of Nanatsu Kaze: No Shima Monogatari. It's a Japanese-only adventure game that is unplayable without translation, but it has a really stunning visual style and is well-animated. If an English translation has been finished (I don't believe it has) I'd be interested in giving it a playthrough even though I'm not into the genre that much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvJw32GRF1U

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Now you got me watching through the whole thing. Thankfully the level of Japanese here is pretty basic, there isn't any kanji I didn't recognize which is a first (・・　)

:​(

This discussion got me thinking. With enough memory, would something like Metal Slug be possible on the Genesis?
Tons of superbly animated sprites and backgrounds, etc.

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Originally Posted by Barone

Very few pixel artists can actually work well with low res, low color systems.

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Ironically, I've tended to have an easier time working with more limited systems. Forces me to make better choices with my colours, in particular.

After a while of adapting artwork over within mock-Master System specifications, I decided to have a go at porting a friend's artwork over to mock-Mega Drive specifications. Mainly because I wanted cream colours at 6-bit RGB just doesn't provide.

The end result ends up being that the colour contrast is all wrong, colour temperature is iffy, saturation is a mess, and overall very messy.

Some artists thrive the less you give them. Perhaps having less lets them hide how unskilled they are, but perhaps it also forces them to make more considered choices when drawing their artwork.

It's a phenomenon I have observed, regardless. This might explain why so many games on more 'powerful' hardware tend to have all sorts of stylistic oddities. Even perhaps explains why a lot of SNES games are near painfully pastely. :)

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Originally Posted by avlon

This discussion got me thinking. With enough memory, would something like Metal Slug be possible on the Genesis?
Tons of superbly animated sprites and backgrounds, etc.

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Likely. I'm not sure if to that extent (since graphics need to be loaded to video memory and there's a limit to how much you can load each frame), but you can definitely have a lot more of animation than usual. You'd be surprised how much games were restricted purely by not having enough room in the cartridge.

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Originally Posted by Flygon

The end result ends up being that the colour contrast is all wrong, colour temperature is iffy, saturation is a mess, and overall very messy.

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Eh, it looks fine to me =/ (probably because I haven't seen the original for comparison)

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Originally Posted by Flygon

Some artists thrive the less you give them. Perhaps having less lets them hide how unskilled they are, but perhaps it also forces them to make more considered choices when drawing their artwork.

It's a phenomenon I have observed, regardless. This might explain why so many games on more 'powerful' hardware tend to have all sorts of stylistic oddities. Even perhaps explains why a lot of SNES games are near painfully pastely. :)

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What I noticed is that on systems with a lot of colors, artists had no idea what to do with them and would end up with lots of smooth gradients just to justify spending on more shades. Thankfully nowadays 24-bit color made people stop being spoiled by color counts and now we're back to making good use of a few hues (this time simply because it looks better). Having 61 colors is much less of a pain in the ass now.

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Originally Posted by Sik

You'd be surprised how much games were restricted purely by not having enough room in the cartridge.

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I've always suspected it. Even when I was a kid. For example, if Ghouls & Ghosts would have been re-released as an 8 or 16 meg game, I'd imagine that it would have been pretty much arcade perfect.

All this is quite comparable to practical special effects in movies. The alien effects on Predator are so well done that its face looks real, there is nothing that is not convincing. In AVP (which I really did actually enjoy) everything looks good, the CGI is well executed, being quite convincing too - I enjoyed the queen chasing the protagonist in the snow. The predator's face, while good, was nowhere near Stan Winston's level of realism.

Noone has to be good at practical effects to that level anymore, the era has passed so the talent goes with it.

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Originally Posted by maxi

I think this game is, more or less, at the same level of Sengoku 2, which is a good thing:
Must see clear/non-resized screens and more of it in movement first, though.

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Maybe you're right.
But, yeah, I hate how every single screenshot they released so far is filled with stupid effects.

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Originally Posted by sengoku 2

Blue's journey design, it is more in the style of a Marvel Land ( arcade version ).
Chiki chiki boys and caveman ninja, characters sprites have a sort of SD style, big head.

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I agree about the SD comment, but disagree overall. Marvel Land's theme and cutesy style isn't really comparable to Blue's Journey IMO.

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Originally Posted by sengoku 2

On megadrive, i am a huge fan of Ristar and Monster World 4 if we speak about graphics.
And Alien Soldier, back in 1995; it could be released in arcade.

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It's a shame how little promotion Ristar got back in the days. A broken mess and steaming pile of shit such as Knuckles' Chaotix seem to have gotten a lot of push though. So sad.

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Originally Posted by sengoku 2

If we speak about design, first game of Alpha Denshi; Magician Lord is more well-known for his graphic than Ninja Combat or Raguy.
Between Metal Slug and Raguy, there is Spin Master that is Joe and Mac style and also Top Hunter that is a huge accomplishment on graphic department.

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Originally Posted by avlon

This discussion got me thinking. With enough memory, would something like Metal Slug be possible on the Genesis?
Tons of superbly animated sprites and backgrounds, etc.

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Originally Posted by avlon

I've always suspected it. Even when I was a kid. For example, if Ghouls & Ghosts would have been re-released as an 8 or 16 meg game, I'd imagine that it would have been pretty much arcade perfect.

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IMO Joe & Mac is the closest we got to Metal Slug on the Mega Drive back in the days.
It doesn't have the fluid animation nor the projectiles heavy rain that Metal Slug has, but it's something. And it uses an 8 Mbit cartridge. The color choices weren't great in the MD version but palette hacks can improve them quite a bit.
(emulated capture was the best I could find)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzNUkpEiBPQ

The guys behind the MD port did a great job IMO. There's a recent interview with the developer:

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Stuart Middleton: We felt we made a faithful copy of the arcade original. We actually took the graphics from the arcade machine and converted them directly for the conversion. The Genesis didn’t have enough memory to contain the levels, so we came up with a process where we could copy across new background graphics on the fly so that we could get everything in. The sprites were more of a challenge, but Tim worked really hard to faithfully reproduce the game with the limitations of the Genesis compared to the original arcade machine. We did have to cut back in some areas, but I think they were few and far between. I wasn’t aware that there were hacks to fix the color problems. I’d be very interested in knowing what they were and where we went wrong.

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http://www.sega-16.com/2016/05/inter...art-middleton/

Spin Master seems to use a modified/expanded Joe & Mac engine and it looks closer to a Metal Slug game (superb real hardware footage):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJiiSkGTx_4

Top Hunter seems to be on a similar technical level and it's something I think the MD could pull off with a big enough cartridge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njnrbBSTDwE

I'd have liked to seem games like those ported to the MD using 24-32 Mbit carts in order to have a better idea of what could be done in terms of a Metal Slug port.
I think several cuts would be mandatory though, like reduced number of projectiles, simplified explosion effects, more static looking vehicles, some black borders to help with the VRAM bandwidth limitations, animation cuts, maybe single player-only, etc.

Top Hunter is more console-like, rich gameplay with a ton of secret, rythm is quieter and it is played like a platform game despite of movelist coming from SNK VS fighting.
Spin master is nervous game when you shoot and jump on enemies, it's more arcade feeling.

About metal slug, i know that big boss sprites on this game ( more true on mslug x and 3 ) are sprite consuming, because level of detail is high.
But on megadrive, one layer background can be used for big sprite object ( big bosses ), so yeah i think that a good conversion ( not arcade perfect with less colours, less animation frames etc...) can be done for metal slug 1, but if we speak about mslug x and 3, it is a huge gap so i can't imagine...

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Originally Posted by avlon

I've always suspected it. Even when I was a kid. For example, if Ghouls & Ghosts would have been re-released as an 8 or 16 meg game, I'd imagine that it would have been pretty much arcade perfect.

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Just look at the Earthworm Jim games if you want proof of that. Those games had an amazing amount of animation, mainly because they were on 24 meg carts. And the games looked better on the Gens to boot! :D

I also wondered about Forgotten Worlds. Since it was released in 89 on the Gens on a 4 meg cart. I have no doubt that if it was 16 or 24 meg they could have easily done a nearly arcade perfect port.

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Originally Posted by Barone

IMO Joe & Mac is the closest we got to Metal Slug on the Mega Drive back in the days.
It doesn't have the fluid animation nor the projectiles heavy rain that Metal Slug has, but it's something. And it uses an 8 Mbit cartridge. The color choices weren't great in the MD version but palette hacks can improve them quite a bit.
(emulated capture was the best I could find)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzNUkpEiBPQ

The guys behind the MD port did a great job IMO. There's a recent interview with the developer:

http://www.sega-16.com/2016/05/inter...art-middleton/

Spin Master seems to use a modified/expanded Joe & Mac engine and it looks closer to a Metal Slug game (superb real hardware footage):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJiiSkGTx_4

Top Hunter seems to be on a similar technical level and it's something I think the MD could pull off with a big enough cartridge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njnrbBSTDwE

I'd have liked to seem games like those ported to the MD using 24-32 Mbit carts in order to have a better idea of what could be done in terms of a Metal Slug port.
I think several cuts would be mandatory though, like reduced number of projectiles, simplified explosion effects, more static looking vehicles, some black borders to help with the VRAM bandwidth limitations, animation cuts, maybe single player-only, etc.

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That is a pretty nice conversion. I've only ever really played the arcade version (Caveman Ninja) and this is admittedly impressive.

Your assessment of Top Hunter & Spin Master are spot on. With a large enough cart, I could see good ports of these happening.

One thing that bugs me these days (ever since learning about this forum and color hacks) is as to why colors were off on Genesis ports. Was it because developers were lazy, or did the dev kits back then just not allow it?

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Originally Posted by AggroSky

Just look at the Earthworm Jim games if you want proof of that. Those games had an amazing amount of animation, mainly because they were on 24 meg carts. And the games looked better on the Gens to boot! :D

I also wondered about Forgotten Worlds. Since it was released in 89 on the Gens on a 4 meg cart. I have no doubt that if it was 16 or 24 meg they could have easily done a nearly arcade perfect port.

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I never cared much for Earthworm Jim when it was originally released, but revisiting it about a year ago, I was impressed at how well its aged technically. The animation is superb for its time.

Apparently, Neo Geo games had 700+ Mb. I wonder if Genesis could handle such large amounts of data. And what it could do with so much.
And doesn't Genesis graphics style, with sprites, tiles and backgrounds, have some advantages over the sprite-only Neo Geo style?

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Originally Posted by avlon

One thing that bugs me these days (ever since learning about this forum and color hacks) is as to why colors were off on Genesis ports. Was it because developers were lazy, or did the dev kits back then just not allow it?

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1) Making low contrast shades are a pain in the ass to get to look good. In really awful cases you can end up spending the whole day just figuring out which color combinations work well. Also arcades usually have a tad of palettes, having to redraw the graphics to use less hues so they fit in less palettes means having to extend the range covered by the colors.

2) We may be going off the wrong gamma values. As was mentioned long ago, MAME uses the wrong colors (too bright) for a lot of games. On the flipside, I've noticed that BlastEm tends to make games look a bit brighter (the color ramp on a real Mega Drive is not linear, unlike what most other emulators display). I wouldn't be surprised if the colors aren't anywhere as off.

3) Also deadlines meaning they may decide to just put in whatever seems somewhat OK and move onto other stuff =P (and ports tend to have tighter deadlines than brand new games)