Paprium: The Official Thread Mk 2

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01-14-2021, 04:57 PM
molasar

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepodmc

Because its rare that a game with worse gameplay is better than a game with better gameplay, if we are talkig about videogames

Again what criteria do you use for gameplay? For example is SOR3's gameplay going to work in the same screen resolution as Paprium's, the same size of sprites, the same amount of enemies? Which mechanics are easier to pick up for random player?
01-14-2021, 04:58 PM
chilled

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pain for Fun

Does anyone know if a Sega - Genesis Model 1 VA6 revision NTSC-US console or Sega - Genesis Model 3 VA2 revision NTSC-US console can run the game Paprium? I will list the serial numbers if needed for reference of these two consoles.

I posted that both worked, a lot of pages ago though, as it was one of the earliest confirmations on those models that I own.
01-14-2021, 05:08 PM
Gadispalembang

If we use an arbitrary rating system where graphics (Presentation, spritework/textures), sound (Music and sound effects)
and gameplay (Mechanics, controls) are rated out of 5, 5 and 10, respectively, out of a possible 20, Paprium always
seems to land anywhere between being a 6.5/10 to 7.5/10 game. I personally rate it as such:
Graphics: 4/5
Sound: 4.5/5
Gameplay: 6/10 (This will likely change once I play it myself)
14.5/20 or 7.25/10 or 72.5%
01-14-2021, 05:40 PM
axel

To me comparing Paprium to a game like SoR2 doesn't make a lot of sense. Sega/Ancient had to work within the constraints of the era, including a shorter development cycle and a 16 mbit ROM with no enhancements. More importantly, their game had to actually run on all hardware revisions -- a technique that breaks compatibility with certain consoles would have been a complete nonstarter.

I see this on other platforms too, like on the Neo Geo the game Alpha Mission 2 is a decent overhead shooter from 1991 with a 47 mbit ROM. An indie title like Fast Striker looks a lot more impressive graphically, but it came out in 2010 and uses 1560 mbit ROM. Are they really comparable, or should we just appreciate each one as a product of its time?

The only way I see Paprium being released back in the day is if it was a Sega CD exclusive and you break up the levels to make each area fit into RAM, maybe add a bunch of elevators or something to hide the loading time. At least that would keep the soundtrack intact and you could still have sprite scaling using the ASIC.
01-14-2021, 05:54 PM
molasar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goati

It's not a scientific debate: beat 'em ups must be fun, satisfying, and have some sort of pacing.
If the enemy variety is boring, the game itself drags too much and the AI and balance pose no challenge whatsoever, then the pixelart and music can be however great you want, but it's still "objectively" a mess with unfinished core mechanics and has over-developed on the rest.
Mind you, I'm fully aware of two things:

1) Paprium had to deliver on stuff like multiple paths, secrets, etc, because that was the prerequisite to the gem-founding initiative. It wasn't gonna happen otherwise. So it's unsurprising that it has all that nice "content" but it's dull.
If you can't see that it's not a satisfying beat 'em up because of its laughable hit detection, the undeveloped AI and the absolute lack of any kind of challenge(not even on VHard or Paprium), then I'll show myself out of the conversation :)

Again there is no universal rating criteria system used by you here. Also your expectations and preferences do not have to be the same as anybody else's.
Not even multiple paths, secrets, etc. could save Paprium if its gameplay was not satisfying. And I never expected it to be a magnum opus of beat'em ups. SOR2 is not it either. It was boring and dull to me even when it was released.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goati

That's a good point: if a beat 'em up is long then it ought to keep things interesting, fresh, non repetitive... Like any other videogame genre. It's just very hard to achieve that in a beat 'em up.
Paprium has quality and variety for at most a 10 minute brainless beat 'em up experience, something like Ane-san on PCE-CD (way better game, although also a bad beat 'em up), not for a 1h30 dull slog reminiscent of Taiwanese MD beat 'em ups.

It's not like Paprium is good if you don't jump... I don't think it works like that.
Also SoR2 is a good beat 'em up that constantly keeps things fresh and interesting with everyone of the above points in the list, I
played it this week and I can't think of a boring corridor, whereas I played Paprium last month and I can tell you where and why it's a severely lackluster experience as a videogame of the same genre.

Again different expectations and preferences. Also SOR2 is so slow, boring and generic. If both these games were released at the same time, I know where my money would go to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goati

Yes of course it's entertainment, as long as you have fun it's good. It doesn't make the game good, though
I'm writing here about it having played it extensively myself, I had fun streaming the game because of the audience and because I can find jank enjoyment out of anything, I didn't find the actual game fun, because it completely flops on everything that makes a beat 'em up fun. Likewise, it seems that other people are having fun with the game because of other reasons that are certainly(and that's objective) not good challenge, polish, balance, AI, pacing, hit detection, design or variety of enemies/situations. And that's cool! Just ask yourself if you're having fun with a good beat 'em up or if you're only having fun with a game you like, before getting defensive about your opinion or uploading a review about it (I don't mean to address you or anybody here in particular, molasar!)

Yes, fun makes a game good for particular individual and you cannot change it. And without standard rating criteria system there is no way to say what is universally good or bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goati

I see this comment reiterated around, and I gotta be honest with you: to me it sounds like you haven't actually tried jumpkicking-spam in many arcade beat 'em ups
Certainly though, not many allow you to, uh, jumpkick through almost the whole screen with a button press like Paprium does...

For a beat 'em up where you can also very easily spam the jump kick, which is even more broken than Paprium, a good example is Ane-san, which has even less enemy variety and more basic level design, but at least it's short, has more charisma and doesn't overquote another game like Paprium does with its constant SoR references.

For an actual arcade beat 'em up, however, you might find it more troublesome to employ such a strategy in a viable way, as arcade games are meant to generate revenue and they wouldn't pass location test if they were anything like Paprium on the challenge-side (forget the length).
There are, however, some examples, but they still require lots of skills: see this P.O.W. Prisoner of War Hardest no damage 1CC run by Scoop:

I should have succeeded in, at least, assuring that my "Paprium is a bad beat 'em up" statement comes from a place of educated videogame analysis, not from any personal emotional involvement or attachment to the game's campaign or whatever else, as I think is the case for most comments

I have tried exploiting the jumpkick in many beat'em ups but I found it so boring and pointless unless I wanted to see the ending ASAP.

Ane-san has more charisma than Paprium??? Is it bad that Paprium has SOR references in it?

Again your preferences and expectations do not have to be the same as anybody elese's. Therefore your anaylysis is not universal.

Do not forget I never stated that Paprium is my favorite beat'em up. It just met my minimal criteria for a game I want to replay from time to time. For example SOR2 was not even good enough I wanted to finish it.
01-14-2021, 06:21 PM
molasar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

Balanced moveset without overpowered moves, enemy design that is distinctive and require different approaches, good risk-reward scoring system, fun gameplay that requires lots of timing, reflexes and spacing etc. Sorry, but those are all objective aspects in where a 1984 game is better than Paprium. And don't be ridiculous downplaying it, the game was pretty popular at the time, NES port sold 3.5 million copies which is pretty big for a beat 'em up.

Lol. It being your favorite game from the 80s does not make it mine. Sorry the game is not better than Paprium at all. And no, you are not the one to dictate what is objective or is not. For this you need to have universal rating criteria system. I am not ridiculous. Sales does not mean that something is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

Probably just badly founded nostalgia that fails to understand the appeal of old arcade games at all, either way don't care.

You are wrong again. What appeals to you does not have to appeal to me. And you are no expert at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

Quite ridiculous as winning/losing conditions are basic gameplay standards tied to the mechanics of these type of games, or any type of game really.

Yes, quite ridiculous that you play games because you want to win in them and not for fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

lol this amusing fallacy again. So having good gameplay and challenge in a game = it's boring and too much work, but 20 hours of mindless play to unlock some pointless content nobody cares about is entertaining? how much did Fonzie pay you? If you find braindead gameplay enjoyable then good for you, but the whole point of games is doing some sort of mental recreation through creative mechanics and problem solving, that's big part of what makes it fun, not just the pretty colors.

Lol. By what standards? Yours? Do not be pathetic. You are no authority in regard to this.

Who does force you to unlock anything in games? Who does force anyone to play 20hrs? I cannot even do it with Capcom's AvP.

Wrong genre if look for creative mechanics and problem solving. Try fighting games.

If you want to show off something, just create your perfect beat'em up game and see how people react to it.

Again you already know that I choose fighting games for what you are looking for in beat'em ups.

Pretty colors and shapes (art direction) together with proper music and sound effects support fun in games a lot.
01-14-2021, 06:29 PM
Vludi

"wahhh it's j-just your opinion you k-know!!??"
It's pretty easy to play the obsessive relativist when your criticism lack any kind of substance and you don't have the disposition, knowledge nor experience in the matter to achieve proper consensus with other people, the problem is no one will take you seriously lol. And my favorite 80s game is probably Final Fight btw, which also shits on Paprium of course.
01-14-2021, 06:54 PM
molasar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

"wahhh it's j-just your opinion you k-know!!??"
It's pretty easy to play the obsessive relativist when your criticism lack any kind of substance and you don't have the disposition, knowledge nor experience in the matter to achieve proper consensus with other people, the problem is no one will take you seriously lol. And my favorite 80s game is probably Final Fight btw, which also shits on Paprium of course.

Where is a universal rating criteria system do you use, Mr. Alleged "Big Ego" Expert?

It is you who does not have knowledge and experience to be a dictator here. Also you cannot change that I started playing games in the 80s. That is why I do not take you seriously, lol. And your Final Fight is not even in my list of favourite beat'em ups. So?

I am still waiting for your game.
01-14-2021, 07:10 PM
Stifu

This is going nowhere. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, period. No sarcasm or anything.
People enjoy watching video game streams, so why couldn't they also enjoy a game with shallow gameplay?

That said, it is obvious Fonzie has overhyped Paprium to death. It was supposed to be the best Mega Drive game ever, blowing everything else out of the water, and so on. It is very far from that. It is a game that has received a lot of time and attention, but with pretty poor priorities, focusing on aesthetics over everything else. You'd normally want to make a good basic game, then build on top of that. Fonzie decided to focus on bells and whistles (as we could already guess from the 2018 release party footages), and then try to kinda turn what he had into an actual game.
01-14-2021, 07:15 PM
Vludi

Quote:

Originally Posted by molasar

Where is a universal rating criteria system do you use, Mr. Alleged "Big Ego" Expert?

I'd be fine to discuss things like criteria and such, with actual players that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by molasar

It is you who does not have knowledge and experience to be a dictator here.

How so? I'm just giving some decent arguments and your rebuttal is "i-it's your o-opinion so it doesn't c-count!" or "it's n-not a fighting game so it doesn't matter!", ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by molasar

Also you cannot change that I started playing games in the 80s

As if being old automatically makes you knowledgeable about old games lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by molasar

And your Final Fight is not even in my list of favourite beat'em ups. So?

Well yeah your list has.... Paprium, go figure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by molasar

I am still waiting for your game.

Maybe I'll make one when you start playing the games instead of just being a retro poser.
Hope Fonzie is giving you some money, you aren't doing this for free right, right?
01-14-2021, 07:45 PM
molasar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

I'd be fine to discuss things like criteria and such, with actual players that is.

First you need to become yourself an actual player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

How so? I'm just giving some decent arguments and your rebuttal is "i-it's your o-opinion so it doesn't c-count!" or "it's n-not a fighting game so it doesn't matter!", ridiculous.

Since when beat'em ups as an easy to pick up games is not an argument? Not everyone wanted to play games with a high learning curve ad hoc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

As if being old automatically makes you knowledgeable about old games lol.

I never stated it but experiencing games when they were released is more impactful than playing them when technology advanced beyond what was possible back then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

Well yeah your list has.... Paprium, go figure.

Yes, it has. It is easier to convince my friends to play it with me than to do it with SOR2 or other old generic beat'em up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

Maybe I'll make one when you start playing the games instead of just being a retro poser.
Hope Fonzie is giving you some money, you aren't doing this for free right, right?

I am a poser? FYI I played the majority of games when they were released and owned gaming hardware myself. You see you are nothing special in this regard and we know that you are not good enough to make such a game.
Also I do not know what is your story about me and Fonzie. I do not even advertise Paprium as the best beat'em up game. I just state that it depends on personal preferences and expectations. So?
01-14-2021, 08:11 PM
Vludi

They are easy to pick up but also need good gameplay mechanics and challenge for the players to keep playing the game, that's what Paprium lacks, instead it tricks you into thinking it has replayability by adding pointless hidden content collectathon style.
And yes you are a poser, being old, hoarding plastic and "having been there" don't make you more knowledgeable about the games, sounds more like nostalgia to me rather than having actual passion for the games themselves here and now.
Anyway I'll just stop caring, your opinions on beat 'em ups hold as much credibility as me talking about some old PC-98 mahjong porn games.
01-14-2021, 08:35 PM
Gadispalembang

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tClSJgMDF8
01-14-2021, 08:45 PM
Goati

welp

seinfeldleave.gif
01-14-2021, 08:51 PM
molasar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

They are easy to pick up but also need good gameplay mechanics and challenge for the players to keep playing the game, that's what Paprium lacks, instead it tricks you into thinking it has replayability by adding pointless hidden content collectathon style.

Perhaps Paprium tricks you to do a collectathon but not me. Your expectations and preferences are not the same as anybody else's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

And yes you are a poser, being old, hoarding plastic and "having been there" don't make you more knowledgeable about the games, sounds more like nostalgia to me rather than having actual passion for the games themselves here and now.

No you are the biggest poser in this thread. Being so pathetic by trying to force your own low standards on everyone. Also where I said that I collect plastic. Like what me owning consoles to play games back in the days was hoarding? Also do you think that I like those particular beat'em ups for nostalgia reason? What about other games in this genre? Have not I played them?

You are just so envious and it shows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vludi

Anyway I'll just stop caring, your opinions on beat 'em ups hold as much credibility as me talking about some old PC-98 mahjong porn games.

Anyway now I know who you really are and you just lost your all credibility if there was any.