then you should plug in Thunder Force IV (Lighting Force).
Holy shit does this game still look fantastic.
Does anyone seriously think that the first level with all that pretty parallax isn't the most awesome level in all of 16-bit land?
then you should plug in Thunder Force IV (Lighting Force).
Holy shit does this game still look fantastic.
Does anyone seriously think that the first level with all that pretty parallax isn't the most awesome level in all of 16-bit land?
It's Lightening Force, can't you spell!?!?!?!?!? (joke)
Yeah, it is an awesome game. I think it can be done on the Neo-Geo though, another 16-bit system.
That's not a particularly fair comparison. The Neo-Geo was in a class of its own, IMO. I mean think: Lightening Force vs. Blazing Star. 64 colors vs. 4096 colors. 8 MEGA POWER vs. 346 MEGA POWER. You simply could not do something like Blazing Star on the Genesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zebbe
As for the more common 16-bit systems though, yeah, LF / Genesis / MD all the way.
It looks great but can be done on other systems with two planes just as easy. It's more of a testament of the programmers than the system of how beautiful that stage came out. Once you get passed the eye candy and the slowdown (were they trying to capture that SNES feel?), you'll realize TF3 is a better game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sega-17
Programmers are what it is all about with the Genesis. Just think of Disney's Aladdin for proof. That game should be mandatory playing for anyone making a movie based game!
Dunno about how it reflects on the mightiest 16-bitter, but I second anything positive about TFIV. It rocks from the opening titles and never stops. Amazing game.
I love how playing the game years later, I realized that they watched the movie, yet they didn't at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugly Bob
Mostly how the game makes the movie look like Aladdin was a machete wielding thief throughout the film.
How WAS all of that wonderful parallax done exactly? And Tom.........explanation how it could be done on two planes. NAO. I'd honestly liek to know.
Oh.........and we already have these kind of discussions in like every thread, hardware-related or not. Its off-topic-tastic!
lolololololololololololololololQuote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
Seriously though both are great games and I felt the same way until I finally beat lightening force. There is less slowdown in TF3 but other than that and how easy it is I don't see anyway its better than TFIV.
Lightening force on mania mode is nuts! I can beat the early levels, but the later ones are just insane. TF3 kills shit as well.
The Genesis was the master of parallax scrolling. Sonic 2, Thunder Force IV, Gley Lancer, and Ecco 2 were great examples. I believe the SNES had more background layers, but they weren't utilized due to the slower CPU speed.
Hahaha! Probably because I love TF3 and TF4 just didn't have the same feeling IMO. I remember anticipating the release of TF4 and being blown away by the visuals and such, but after a while when the "wow" factor wore off - I went back to lovin' TF3. I'm not the only one, though ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by AD2101
You really want to know? Here's a hint: the overlapping planes of clouds and mountains are static from each other when the screen scrolls vertically. They never overlap ;) Horizontal line scrolling is used change the scroll speeds of each plane every so many lines and the two planes reversing priority and vice versa at the right times/lines. Still, that ocean side level has got to be one of the most impressive and visually done scroll setups of that era.Quote:
How WAS all of that wonderful parallax done exactly? And Tom.........explanation how it could be done on two planes. NAO. I'd honestly liek to know.
Oh.........and we already have these kind of discussions in like every thread, hardware-related or not. Its off-topic-tastic!
Think of it this way: Screen 1 can overlap screen 2, and screen 2 can overlap screen 1 (even at the same time on different vertical levels like in Thunder Force 4). But one screen can not overlap itself. A screen can scroll into itself (but not over) vertically, but that's it. So in TF4 when you look at the clouds you are seeing Screen 1, then below that is screen 2, then screen 1 again, then screen 2, etc etc etc, all scrolling at different speeds. A single screen can scroll at multiple speeds as long as it doesn't overlap itself (like the 1st stage background in Sonic 2... the stuff behind the front screen).
SNES has 4 layers, but in the more beautiful looking modes these 4 are shrunk to 2 (or even 1). And AFAIK, SNES can't do line scrolling like MD can.
TFIII just seems like the old crusty pervert next door compared to the slick future generation TFIV.
Seriously, though, the presentation was so much more advanced over TFIII and the action was more intense. III wasn't a bad game, but IV was an evolution of the formula to perfection.
The slowdown helps, by the way.
Sure it can do per scanline scrolling. It uses an HDMA (horizontal DMA) system to update up to 8 different registers per scanline. That's how mode 7's 3D effect is done and the gradient of transparency, sine wave effect, etc. Also the 4 layer mode is pretty useless (all tiles are 4 color mode). The 3 layer mode is the optimal, though one of the layers uses 4 color tiles with the other two using 16 color tiles.Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
Yeah it can. I've seen lots of SNES games with line scrolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
I think he meant that the SNES can't do line-scrolling AS WELL as the Genesis can.
BTW............"Thunder Spirits" sucks!
I don't know which among the "Legendary Four" first-gen SNES shmups (Gradius III, Super R-Type, Thunder Spirits, U.N Squadron) has the worst slowdown and flicker/breakup, but they are legendary because of it.
I must say that the SNES port of "U.N Squadron", to this day looks damn close to the coin-op. Very impressive, dunno how they pulled that off and choked with "Final Fi-..........never mind, those were memory-munching beat-em-ups and fighting games.
I think Gradius 3 was the flicker/slowdown king. The slowdown I can understand.. somewhat, but not the flicker. That's just some seriously poor programming on their end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarzak
I think the SNES version of U.N. Squadron is better than the arcade. The music's *better* than the arcade and so was the mapped system with variable stages sort of like Bionic Commando for the NES, that wasn't in the arcade version. Those were nice touches.
Btw- Thunder Spirits is just a joke. I've seen the snes do better than that on it's worst days. When you press the fire button, the game shudders with super tiny amounts of slowdown - giving a shudder effect. I thought it was just the emu, but it's not. I actually paid $2 for a used cart just to see if that was real......and it was :o
Send that used cart to me so I can finally write up a SIDE-by-SIDE article about it for this site.
You seriously want it? I'm sure I can ship it for less than $2 (maybe $1.35) or maybe even the price of a stamp if I can get it to fit in an envelope :D. What version are you going to compare it to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
Thunder Force 3 for the 16-bit Sega Genesis.
I rented Thunder Spirits long, long ago and I also own the Saturn Thunder Force AC, which is the same thing as Thunder Spirits, only not SNES powered.
I had a copy of "Thunder Spirits"..........up until early 2006............when I sold my entire cartridge-based video game collection for less than it was worth.........
I recall TS catching my interest when I saw it being played in "Nickelodeon Arcade". I was boggled as to why a slightly different "Thunder Force III" was on SNES with a new name. I later got a copy for around $5 at a local pawn shop in 2001...........man I had such an awesome SNES collection.
The slowdown in TS was FIERCE when "Rapid Fire" was enabled, and you didn't actually have to mash the Y button for every shot. ("Rapid Fire" was disabled by default)
Thunder Spirits Stage 1 video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38Dxq2-ltjo
Don't most people consider the Neo-Geo a 24-bit system? It is a pretty unfair comparison...just look at games like Blazing Star, which blow any 16-bit console out of the water in the graphics department.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zebbe
Back on-topic, maybe I'll pick up TF3 and TF4 (never played either). I need more shooters, and these are a hell of a lot cheaper than Blazing Star :)
Only people who are morons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinder6
Guess that describes everyone on the neo-geo.com forums :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
More seriously, though, here's something I just found on this very issue:
I'll stop there, lest I venture further into off-topic land.Quote:
Parallel processing is a technology that allows one system to utilize two separate CPUs (Central Processing Units) to create one amazing experience. Neo-Geo has one 16-bit 68000 CPU and an 8-bit Z8OA CPU. So how many "bits" is Neo-Geo? Well, it's hard to say. A lot of people will add the two numbers together and say, "The Neo-Geo is a 24-bit system." This is incorrect. You cannot simply add the two numbers. The Neo-Geo would have far less capabilities if it simply had one 24-bit CPU. Others call it a 16-bit system just because of the generation it comes from. Some will say it's 32-bit, simply because it's the next step after 16. None of these would really be accurate. The most correct statement you could make about the Neo-Geo is, "The Neo-Geo has two CPUs. One is 8-bit and the other is 16-bit." There you have it, parallel processing, one of the major technologies that makes the Neo-Geo such a high-power and high-priced unit.
Same exact thing can be said about the Sega Genesis since it has the same 2 CPUs (at slightly slower speeds). The Z80 only runs the sound in the Neo Geo, not game logic. It usually does the same in the Genesis (optional) and also runs Sega Master System games. If everyone at the neo-geo.com forums actually thinks that it is 24-bit, then they are super retarded. I can't believe that they do believe that, though... well maybe some of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinder6
Or one could say that the Neo Geo is a 16bit system which has a dedicated 8bit music/audio processor.
Many arcade systems had a second processor dedicated for running music/audio tasks. Even the SNES had a dedicated 8bit processor to handle the DSP directly for sound/music generation.
Cinder6: You haven't played TF3 or TF4? I would definitely pick them up. Even if you weren't a shooter fan, you can atleast listen to the musics ;)
ahh... but it isn't as simple as in MD where you have a line scroll table... I'd consider HDMA "trick" since its done on the fly, not passively by the VDP...Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
The Neo, apart from having a faster CPU and sound CPU than the Genny and SNES, had a VDP and sound suite that blew both systems away. The arrogantly huge cart sizes that doubled as RAM space helped developers showcase the Neo's abilities and make it one of the most difficult consoles to port games from until this past console generation.
24 or no 24-Bit (pssh.......marketing), it whooped both the Genny and Sneeze's asses, though some cirlces say that the SNES's sound suite was close to rivaling the Neo's.
The Neo's technological dominance over the proletariat home consoles was solidified with the introduction of the "100 Mega SHOCK!" carts. The original "Samurai Shodown" was the biggest "fuck you!" to the Neo's competitors, as all of their ports managed to have glaring flaws within them that rendered the Neo port the definitive port to this day.
Wow, I really regret not buying this mega-supreme 16-bit console that was a gamer's heaven. I'm surprised not ALL Mega Drive and SNES owners threw away their systems to Africa and bought this far superior console instead. What could be the reason, what COULD possibly be the reason not everyone did this.........
You can very easily have HUGE carts on MD too, but would you have payed like $200 for one ? MD could have easily been advertised as 32 bit, since 68000 feels like a 32-bit CPU to a programmer (though that applies to NeoGeo too). I like NeoGeo...
Uh, no. We know better than that. The term "24-bit" is used over there like "ZOMG MEGA POWER" and "Blast Processing" are used here. Anyone that posts differently is usually either a.) corrected or b.) laughed / flamed off the board, depending on who replies first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinder6
Kind of like how the Z80 in the Genesis does?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
Anyway, as I said before, the Neo is in a whole other world from the rest of the 16-bit consoles. It was designed for industrial / commercial use with a home version built as an afterthought. All the others were built with home consumer use in mind first, with sacrifices made to keep costs down.
Eh, I've seen a lot of people calling it a 24-bit system, without it being obviously tongue-in-cheek. I always assumed that it was used to differentiate it from the 16-bit consoles, since it's so far ahead (and well it should be; it's an arcade system, first and foremost).Quote:
Originally Posted by 0x15e
Then the 32X is a 64-bit system, as it has two 32-bit processors. Add the 24 of the Genesis and you have 88-bit power. Add 16 more from the Sega CD and you have 104-bit. That is 80 bit more than the Neo-Geo. The Neo-Geo is simply too weak to compare to the quintuple processing of the Sega Genesis CD 32X!
It's funny, the Neo-Geo actually has both the same processors the Genny does. A Motorolla 68000 and the Zilog Z80 (the Z80 was used as a sound processor in the genny and for backwards compatability as the Z80 was in the sms. Where as the Z80 was a co-processer in the Neo-Geo).Quote:
Originally Posted by 0x15e
The Neo-Geo just has them clocked at nearly twice the speed each.
But yeah, I don't really consider the Neo-Geo as part of the 16-bit ers... mainly because it's more of a home-arcade system, overpriced, and no one owned it. But that is all just technicalities.
i had i neo geo with the huge priced games but i didnt pay much for,it was a bargin somewhere on ebay.Anyway neo geo totally blew me away the first time i saw it i went home and only tought Neo geo>>capcom snk for the DC but the transparancys i tought to see where just flicker but still KOf 2000 and many more looked amazing great console.Since the neo geo mostly has fighting games and metal slug and a few adventures i realise theres no collecting in it Buying neo geo aes games is like doing drug,both make you poor.The snes could do stuff a genny and a neo couldnt do but snes its sound is poor as hell listen to Xmen,Punch out an Turtles TFighters and then boast Tf4 into your genesis for almost real rock samples.If snes was that good in sound it could compete with metal slug 5 or 3? hell not the only game with decent rock was RandR racing on snes.
I don't know how many times you've compared the Thunder Force IV soundtrack with the SNES soundchip, ary. But they sure as hell are equally entertaining everytime :D.
Just as much as the Z80 was a co-processor in the Genesis and no more.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofduct
What I meant by this is the the genny used it as a sound processor...Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
but now that I look at it, the neo geo only used it as a audio controller as well... hrmm, thought it used it for more then that.