Same Game, different speed

I used to slowly tap my foot to the swingy paced tune of Green Hill Zone on my old 50Hz PAL Mega Drive... Listening to how fast the tune was ment to sound on a 60Hz NTSC machine sounds just way too hyper to me.

I plugged in Super-Hang On (single cartridge) the other day and thought the game was playing too slow... I've always played it on the Mega-Games 1 collection (Super-Hang on, Italia 90, Columns), doing a side by side comparison it's obvious that S-HO is _faster_ on mega games 1 cartridge!... It's weird, it's not like they've just upped the framerate, cos sometimes it plays faster and sometimes it's slower, it often speeds up just before hitting a corner which nearly always catches me out.

Has anyone noticed this? Does anyone have any suggestions why it happens? Did they optimise the code on the newer release or something?

Ditto with the Sonic 1 thing. It's laid-back yet fast :)

Super Hang-On does get very slowdown-y in places during the game. I'm not sure if this affects the music, though. For what it's worth, there are a couple of different versions of (lone) Super Hang-On, too; I'll try it with my cartridges and see what happens.

[edit] The track is stripy in the lone cartridge; in Mega Games 1, the track is plain, with a broken line down the middle. Yes, Mega Games 1's Super Hang-On is a different version.

And I love how the second song (Sprinter) syncs up perfectly with the turbo sound in PAL mode: hold down both B and C when the race starts in Beginner mode :D

It has to do with 50Hz vs 60Hz, obviously. Since you are used to the 50Hz speed, the 60Hz version is going to seem much too hyper and fast for you. Our Sonic 1 is just so super amazingly powerful, that it is unbelievable. Blast Processing™®!!! WOW!!! America is teh rule. God favors America, and that is why Jesus invented 60Hz.

Anyway as far as Super Hang-On goes, the original PAL release was probably not retimed for 50Hz, so like Sonic 1 it plays slower than it should. They probably retimed it to play at the proper speed on the Mega Games 1 collection. So basically the stand alone cart is the "wrong" version.

It's interesting how one of these games is too slow, and the other is too fast. It all depends on what you're used to. ;)

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Originally Posted by Joe Redifer

It has to do with 50Hz vs 60Hz, obviously. Since you are used to the 50Hz speed, the 60Hz version is going to seem much too hyper and fast for you. Our Sonic 1 is just so super amazingly powerful, that it is unbelievable. Blast Processing™®!!! WOW!!! America is teh rule. God favors America, and that is why Jesus invented 60Hz.

Anyway as far as Super Hang-On goes, the original PAL release was probably not retimed for 50Hz, so like Sonic 1 it plays slower than it should. They probably retimed it to play at the proper speed on the Mega Games 1 collection. So basically the stand alone cart is the "wrong" version.

It's interesting how one of these games is too slow, and the other is too fast. It all depends on what you're used to. ;)

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Yeah, so they're probably different versions, but I don't think the newer one is just a fix so it plays at the proper speed on PAL machines because it seems to speed up and slow down randomly. I hadn't noticed the different road colours so it may just be a case of the same game with quite a bit of reprogramming.

Jesus didn't invent anything, Sega did !!!

Super Hang-On (REV 00) (JUE) plays fine with occasional slowdowns when passing a opponent bike in both PAL 50hz and in NTSC 60hz
Super Hang-On (REV 01) (JUE) appears to have slowdown all the time, either PAL or NTSC.
Tested with Kega Fusion 3.51, Gens+ and Gens32

If anybody can test this roms on the real system, their goodgen file names are:
REV 00: Super Hang-On (JUE) (REV 00) [p1][!].bin or Super Hang-On (JUE) (REV 00) [R-Eur].bin
REV 01: Super Hang-On (JUE) (REV 01) [!].bin

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Originally Posted by TmEE

Jesus didn't invent anything, Sega did !!!

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Lies! Jesus invented the cheeseboard - Sega had nothing to do with that.

Although I imagine playing Sonic at 60Hz would be awesome I can imagine the music would sound psychedelic. Star Light Zone, for example, has a wonderfully laid back beat on PAL Mega Drives.

Ah yes, the good old PAL tempo music in Sonic. It really did feel odd playing it 'how it was meant to be played' eventually. That blast processing was just tooo much.

I can see how NTSC users must have really felt like throwing pal megadrives when they go from fast sonic to moderately fast sonic, though it actually feels incredibly slower after you've been playing 60hz then go to 50.

It's a known fact that Europeans can't handle speed. It's too much for them. It's the very reason why the PAL slower refresh was adopted. That's not to say Europeans don't like action per say, it's just that they don't like fast action. :p

Anyone have a link to the 50hz PAL version of Sonic's music? I bet it does sound cool slowed down by ~20%.

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

It's a known fact that Europeans can't handle speed. It's too much for them.

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Ah, yes, just like Americans can´t take the incredible added detail of the higher PAL-resolution...the incredible amount of details is just too much to take visually.:)

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Originally Posted by 108 Stars

Ah, yes, just like Americans can´t take the incredible added detail of the higher PAL-resolution...the incredible amount of details is just too much to take visually.:)

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oh, you mean the SIXTEEN extra lines of resolution? ;)

Yeah, those are the lines that make games almost photorealistic! Just so damn awesome you completely forget about those 17,5% speed loss!

Us lucky Europeans have TV's that do both 50 and 60hz, PAL and NTSC, and we have RGB. So with a quick mod of the console we can flick between whatever speed we prefer, all in pixel perfect vision :)

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Originally Posted by playgen

Us lucky Europeans have TV's that do both 50 and 60hz, PAL and NTSC, and we have RGB. So with a quick mod of the console we can flick between whatever speed we prefer, all in pixel perfect vision :)

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Us americans with HDTV's can usually do that too...

Mine does 60 and 50Hz, along with the HD modes, and it's a CRT.

I agree, I looked at a PAL game once and I nearly went blind due to the super sharp visuals tearing my eyeballs to pieces!

Oh woopido. Not much to look at really.

NTSC:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...gon/ntsc-1.png

PAL:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...dragon/pal.png

Evildragon, I believe you are taking comments too seriously....;)

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Originally Posted by 108 Stars

Evildragon, I believe you are taking comments too seriously....;)

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No, I'm playing along. ;) Just in my own unique way.

Those screenshots are old, possibly over a year.

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

Anyone have a link to the 50hz PAL version of Sonic's music? I bet it does sound cool slowed down by ~20%.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0llsb77Esc (not my video)

The PAL version's not survived the conversion to Youtube FLV very well. It's not postage-stamp-sized on my TV, honestly. ;)

It is like that on my TV, cause the Sonic game runs in 224 line mode even for 50Hz countries. It was never programmed for 240 line use.

Why can't emulators ever get the Sonic title screen right? Sonic goes BEHIND the banner, he's not supposed to be in front of it. Emulation = lose.

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Originally Posted by Joe Redifer

Why can't emulators ever get the Sonic title screen right? Sonic goes BEHIND the banner, he's not supposed to be in front of it. Emulation = lose.

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Actually Gens and Fusion both do it right.

Someone just didn't RTFM or used an old ass emulator.

Actually, come to think of it, the DEFAULT setting is for "sprite limit emulation" to enabled..

(the sprite limit is what causes sonic to be behind the title screen in sonic 1, interesting programming trick actually)...

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Originally Posted by evildragon

Someone just didn't RTFM or used an old ass emulator.

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Not just someone, but most people, seemingly. I see it all over Youtube and have even seen it in magazine screenshots when they mention anything about Sonic 1.

Yea, then they are stupid.

Gens and Fusion, the two most popular emulators, do it right..

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

It's a known fact that Europeans can't handle speed. It's too much for them. It's the very reason why the PAL slower refresh was adopted. That's not to say Europeans don't like action per say, it's just that they don't like fast action. :p

Anyone have a link to the 50hz PAL version of Sonic's music? I bet it does sound cool slowed down by ~20%.

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Recorded from the title to the end of the green hill zone automatic demo (with in-game sounds) to give an idea of how much slower it is.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/..._PAL_Speed.mp3

Spring Yard Zone (PAL).

Although unbearably slow for many Americans, you'll find many PAL users will still enjoy the slower versions due to the past nostalgia being associated with the slower versions in the PAL region.

I guess they are better in a chill-out genre kind of way..

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Originally Posted by Elusive

The PAL version's not survived the conversion to Youtube FLV very well. It's not postage-stamp-sized on my TV, honestly. ;)

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Recorded from the title to the end of the green hill zone automatic demo (with in-game sounds) to give an idea of how much slower it is.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/..._PAL_Speed.mp3

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It is more laid back. I like it ;)

If I originally had the PAL version of the music, I don't think I would care for the NTSC faster version. Music rarely sounds as good when it's speed up from what you're used to.

Also, 'muricans can't register fine detail. It's not in their blood. Matter of fact back on the NTSC design board, they original wanted less vertical resolution, but they eventually decided that visiting Europeans might not able to cope with such a blurry mess and so they struck a compromise. Of course I had the only existing papers documenting this and I needed them to get the kindling going in my fire place one year when I was out of paper and.... Well, sorry 'bout that.

So flawed :p

It wasn't NTSC that designed the resolution, the black and white TV did, and it wasn't NTSC or PAL.. Matter of fact, you could go cross country, adjust vertical hold, and you were set. ;)

Ok ok, to serious, i know.

There's very little true PAL games... however, all Sonics take advantage of extra CPU time of PAL units. Start any Sonic in PAL and switch to NTSC, what do you get : HORRIBLE slowdown since the extra cycles not present on NTSC systems are put to use. I wonder why music speed compensation wasn't added to Sonic1 ? It has been done for all others.... True PAL game doesn't run well on NTSC system or doesn't run at all if one uses 240 line res.

They were lazy, just like they were for most other early games. It's not just the music that's slower, but the entire game as well.

entire game being slower is inevitable... unless they would have worked little bit more on timing stuff. I would say that Sega did very good job with S3&K...

Media Player 11's Play Speed function is great for resolving sound speed problems. For example, I've got the NTSC version of the Sonic soundtrack converted to MP3: if I want PAL speed, I just set it to 0.9 and listen. The options screen music from Comix Zone sounds great at 1.4 speed - it goes from 1995 grunge to 2000 pop-punk :)

Knuckles Chaotix in the sound test screen allows you to change the speed to and from mostly anything.

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Originally Posted by playgen

Us lucky Europeans have TV's that do both 50 and 60hz, PAL and NTSC, and we have RGB. So with a quick mod of the console we can flick between whatever speed we prefer, all in pixel perfect vision

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While it's perfectly possible to use RGB outside Europe, for the MD/genesis why would you want to? Due to the small color palette most developers used creative dithering to take advantage of the effects of composite video to create a sort of antialiasing and simulate a much larger range of colors. Viewing such games in RGB ruins the effect and makes the result look like an emulator, with ugly gradient dithers plainly visible, that on a composite/s-video/RF connection would appear a smooth and rich band of gradient color.

One of the best examples is Ecco the Dolphin II. In most of the game, 32 colors are displayed via use of a palette-switching trick, but on a composite or RF display it appears to be literally thousands of colors. On RGB or in an emulator the effect is ruined. This was intentional-- it came right from one of the producers' mouth. :)

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Originally Posted by Epicenter

One of the best examples is Ecco the Dolphin II. In most of the game, 32 colors are displayed via use of a palette-switching trick, but on a composite or RF display it appears to be literally thousands of colors. On RGB or in an emulator the effect is ruined. This was intentional-- it came right from one of the producers' mouth. :)

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Like the lighting in Streets of Rage 2's bar section. Little tricks like this make me wonder what kind of setup the developers were using; I mean, what was the standard Japanese display connection of the time?

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Originally Posted by Elusive

MP3: if I want PAL speed, I just set it to 0.9 and listen.

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Wouldn't that change the pitch as well?

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One of the best examples is Ecco the Dolphin II. In most of the game, 32 colors are displayed via use of a palette-switching trick, but on a composite or RF display it appears to be literally thousands of colors. On RGB or in an emulator the effect is ruined. This was intentional-- it came right from one of the producers' mouth.

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Back in the day I ran my Genesis in composite to my VCR which then had an RF out to the TV. I could still see the dithering. It looked like ASS! It sure didn't look like thousands or even hundreds of colors to me. I am running RGB/component now, and I think it looks much better. The colors are bolder and less washed-out, and I can see more detail.

Modern temp changers don't change pitch unless you want it too..

I prefer playing my Megadrive and Master System via composite rather than RGB, as the dithering looks better, and pixels look more rounded - so a circle looks like a circle rather than a collection of squares.

I don't seem to have that problem with my "RGB" setup. Then again I am using a real TV and not an emulator. Playing on a TV with RGB does NOT look like an emulator. But I can see each pixel. I can see them with RF as well since I am not blind.

I like RGB and Component, very crisp and colorful.