Many transparency effects on all 16-bit consoles simply use palette swapping/cycling animations. S/H and even SNES hardware transparency are often overkill.
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Many transparency effects on all 16-bit consoles simply use palette swapping/cycling animations. S/H and even SNES hardware transparency are often overkill.
That toy story game did some crazy visuals for both snes and sega too.
Sonic underwater is simply a palette swap.Quote:
Originally Posted by madmax2069
Yeah, didn't think about thatQuote:
Originally Posted by evildragon
I get this message when playing Red Zone, not sure if it's in cart or was just put in ROM, but it pats itself on the back.
http://i48.tinypic.com/2akcrps.jpg
Yeah, that's an actual message of the game. Guess they were real proud of there work on this one, lol.
Ha cool thanks for answer Thunder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderblaze16
Would anyone here like to re make the "Genesis Does" commercial with it's original content except adding the best of these video examples we posted in thread in place of commercials original game footage (Even adding Rick Roll on tv with Genesis next to it video or bad apple)?
I would do it (it's easy because videos you guys posted point to time of examples) but I can't download the flv and just put them in my movie maker, I'll have to download as mp4 then convert to avi and edit it because I have Win XP. I heard windows 7 all you could do is download flv and use them in movie maker.
I think it would be a great idea. Ha even using Star Fox MD footage, VR, Castlevania shadow parts (well SNES could do that), Cotton, Bad Apple, Rick Roll and other game footage you posted.
That only works for very limited situations (fixed horizontal line boundaries), and is a very old technique too. (many 1980s -or even 70s- consoles and home computers could do that)Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
S/H itself is only good for bright/dark shading and not colored blending/shading (or, especially, textured shading/blending patterns) . . . though I think you could potentially do 3 shade translucent sprites (shadow, normal transparent, and highlight) for some limited textured patterns. (I think batman and robin does that in some bosses, and that's actually something the SNES can't do with sprites iirc -I don't think there's any specific blending support for individual sprites on the SNES)
There's cases on the SNES where dithering is the only option as well . . . or flickering in some cases, but that has restrictions too.
So why couldn't Genesis pull this off or why didn't Konami do it ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Because.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyron
Why wouldn't they be? Zyrinx pulled off some pretty wild shit on the Genesis, and Red Zone does it all rather well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderblaze16
Not the same effect at all, the second video is just a palette animation trick, it can't do rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by djvectorman
How is that on google from 1989 ?Quote:
Originally Posted by parallaxscroll
Okay, but it looks very very similar. City in background, long road, just pop a tmnt there on a hover disc and have enemies come down and fight him. I bet the red zone game developers could do it (closely) then boast about it before title screen. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
From what I recall from looking at the game and previous discussions on it, most of the effects weren't really out of the ordinary in terms of what CPU grunt and hardware specific exploits could be used for.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
The main unique/impressive thing was the rotation effect for the terrain . . . but that itself isn't so much software rendering "magic" as combination of very low-res rotation (rotating at the tile map level, so something like 40x26 or a bit more depending how much overscan) combined with a set of generic terrain tiles that get mapped to the rotation pattern as needed. (so a whole ton of animation as well as relatively blurry/vague looking terrain in general to make using a fixed set of tiles usable as such)
It works reasonably well, and that technique probably would have been interesting in a few other games of that style, but it's still pretty limited, particularly if you had to use less ROM and/or needed more detailed terrain. (then again, Red Zone itself is a 2 MB -16Mbit- ROM, so that's pretty reasonable as well, and there'd be room for improvement in a 3 or 4 MB game of similar style)
I think there's some limited sprite scaling too, but that's not really unusual either, particularly for the object sizes in question. (same thing for any polygonal effects used)
The "FMV" is extremely short and 1-bit monochrome, and heavily posterized (no dither), so easily compressed with simple techniques like RLE, and probably uses tile sorting as well. (also saves on VRAM bandwidth)
True that, unfortunately Hyperstone Heist was more likely made by the guys that did Sparkster (looks and plays like it was made by a team of good newbies), than the ones that did RKA (a masterpiece). You can really tell the difference in effort that went into the various genesis konami games.Quote:
Originally Posted by djvectorman
I just put that out there before dozens of palette cycling effects got posted as examples of the Genesis doing "real" transparencies.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
But all kinds of transparency effects (spot light, scrolling layers fading in and out, shadow/highlight, shadows disolving to reveal detail, etc) can be done with alternate palettes/animation and often SNES games use hardware transparency to do effects (like full screen tinting) that could just be done with palette swaps. It helps to have color flexibility though, but the Genesis still does lots.
So true!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Contra, RKA and Snatcher were good efforts. TMNT, SR and Sparkster were not.
Light Crusader also have some 3d effects like doors and some bosses if i remember correctly. Yeah, a good video showing the especial effects on the MD is a good idea. I love how those effects were made :)
Can you do something like this Nightwolf ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by djvectorman
Tempt me to make one, let's make a list of scenes that show of the Genesis hardware prowess in special effects. Codes to get to the specific scenes and what we want to see would be great too.
Scaling boss in Puggsy is a must.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Thanks sheath. The Cotton video pages ago, the Piers dragon video pages ago, Vectorman 1 stage 2 train scene where it's like scrolling 3d over the top view, Contra shadows (?), Bad Apple, Rick Roll with tv and md both in shot video, Red Zone, Batman and Robin crazy effect scenes, Star Fox MD, maybe scaling demos and others people mentioned then add my picture of everything red zone / genesis does "without additional hardware". You'll find everything from page 11 to here. Be interesting to see your video, showing star fox md after Buster Douglas is shown and saying "does !" ha ha and other parts.
Nintendo fans will cry and lie, what do they got, a snes road avenger with cheat chip with flv and cd audio ? (it does look good though). It seems snes doesn't have much posthumous games compared to md btw.
Edit :
I would of done it myself but can't just d/l flv and put in wmm because I have old o/s and don't feel like downloading and picking best 3 seconds of each clip that will be added.
Nah, my biggest gripe with videos these days is whether or not it is a lasting good version. For example, I cannot record from consoles at 60FPS, should I wait until I can? Either way, I can make an amusing video, and downloading sources from youtube would be a disaster. Just kick me in the ass and ask me about it for the next week, I'll make it happen.
I can record at 60fps.. I can't however share it because youtube doesn't do that. MediaFire might.
Maybe on Dailymotion ? Zshare has a player if you upload it there. Is there a "hd" version or great quality version of that Genesis commercial, or are the youtube videos of it just recorded off beta or vhs and grainy ? I'm sure video footage downloaded from past pages or recorded emulator footage will look great in replace of old vg clips though but might be odd having somethings so clear but Genesis Does commercial look grainy.Quote:
Originally Posted by evildragon
Just put up the video file on Dropbox.
I fear not, im not skilled enough to make a good "comercial" showing cool efects of the Blast Processing. The first thing to do is a list with the best example of the effects, maybe also with notes why that effect is nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by djvectorman
What do you have that can record at 60FPS from real hardware? I've got an Avermedia MCE 1500, Hauppauge HVR 1600 and an HD PVR on site and they all only offer 29.97FPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by evildragon
Anyway, I will host the 60FPS version on GP, that part isn't the problem. The problem is listing everything we want to see and why we want to see it.
I vote for Alien Soldier footage :D
Ha! The whole video could be Alien Soldier footage. Jesus Alien Soldier is totally a "look at this SNES, just look at it" game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwolf
Yeah, I haven't played past the first level of Alien Soldier, any specific recommendations? Most Genesis Run 'n Gun games blow the SNES out of the water sprite wise, I thought we were focusing on special effects though.
Batman and Robin has plenty of those effects, scaling, rotating, 3D scrolling, stretching etc.
Stuff like the Cheshire Cat and the Mad Hatter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcmSxIUbVLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n_eHN-ArK8
That whole game is just bombarding you with fancy raster effects.
There's not much more to be said about this I guess.
Youtube videos don't show justice, as gameplay is very smooth also the wing movement of the butterfly:Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
For example: (Go to minute 7:34)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcvG-sGCsPw
Also the fight against seven force is great. But not quite sure if it uses high special effects.
Dynamite Headdy backgrounds also are impresive how they rotate.
Ha okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwolf
Quote:
The first thing to do is a list with the best example of the effects, maybe also with notes why that effect is nice.
Alien Soldier and others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
Edit :
I only played first level of AS it looks like a snes game though it seems, colorful, great graphics, yeah it's fast, but I never got past first level either does it get graphically better later or something ? What is so great about it graphically, like why should snes be jealous of it ? (The voices are very clear though that's awesome). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7MsQwypYzQ
Really smooth moving multi-sprite bosses with rotating limbs, they keep getting better as the game goes, "Seven Force" is freaking amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
Cool Kamahl, I will try to get further in game then. To me AS has very good backgrounds and stuff like Vectorman very 1995 like but the weird characters remind me of the 1989 era of md games (like Altered Beast and others).
Yes, and all those sorts of scrolling/raster effects are limited too . . . and many can be done on the SNES :p. (actually, the effect used for many large rotated -tilted- bosses can be done better on the SNES, since it does column scroll per 8-pixel tile rather than at 16 pixel intervals) Many of those use a comination of animation frames and raster/scrolling effects. (and then there's cases of actual software scaling effects like Road Rash, Skitchin, or the head boss in Puggsy)Quote:
Originally Posted by Robotwo
I'm pretty sure some SNES games opt to use those rather than Mode 7 too. (there's trade-offs to using actual mode 7 effects, including the amount of VRAM space used, and the limitation of 256 tiles, among others) Then there's other effects that mode 7 doesn't help with at all, like rotating funnels/warped backgrounds using raster effects and software scaling (and/or animation) on normal tile layers, including cases like Axelay. (there's more of that on the MD for the most part iirc . . . Travelers' Tales did that stuff a lot in particular)
What cotton does is also a combination of raster effects and animation iirc (or a combination of that and limited use of software scaling).
I can't actually think of any software rendered object rotation effects being done on the Genesis/MD. There's the low-res tilemap rotation effect used in Red Zone, and a fair number of software scaled stuff, but not actual rotation. (or scaling+rotation, but rotation alone uses basically the same rendering overhead . . . at least when kept within a certain size/resolution)
That's aside from the 3D textured terrain plane demo in Pier Solar, of course.
Oh, and, of course, there's the added use of mode 7 just as a pseudo framebuffer layer for software rendering (drawing to 8-bit chunky pixels is WAY more practical than 4-bit planar ones . . . plus you can scale things up for a low res image that fills more of the screen, like Toy Story's 3D maze and Wolf 3D used). The MD uses 4-bit chunky pixel tiles already, so software rendering is a lot easier -you can even treat them as double wide 8-bit pixels in software. (actually odd that steel talons and Race Drivin' use normal 4-bit planar tile modes . . . and no Super FX games use Mode 7 either, oddly -Doom and Stunt Race in particular would have benefitted from that)
Well, SNES can't do GH, add that. Even though they are creating it. MD does a lot esp without chips. Bad apple is awesome. That Star Fox MD with no chips is impressive. There is plenty to put in our new Genesis Does commercial.
There's the Masaya logo in Target Earth. Nothing else may be happening, but it is impressive nonetheless (especially since you can control it).Quote:
I can't actually think of any software rendered object rotation effects being done on the Genesis/MD. There's the low-res tilemap rotation effect used in Red Zone, and a fair number of software scaled stuff, but not actual rotation. (or scaling+rotation, but rotation alone uses basically the same rendering overhead . . . at least when kept within a certain size/resolution)*
What should we add to list to replace old vg clips in commercial with these ? Yeah Genesis Does 2.0 commercial coming soon !
P Cotton video pages ago,
Piers Solar dragon video pages ago
Vectorman 1 stage 2 train scene where it's like scrolling 3d over the top view
Castlevania shadows (?),
Stefs Bad Apple (where girl on broom goes towards castle good 3 effect there,
Rick Roll with tv and md both in shot video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfkDZurZllg
Red Zone http://i48.tinypic.com/2akcrps.jpg my picture too all it does "without additional hardware".
Batman and Robin crazy effect scenes
Stefs Star Fox MD
Gunstar Heroes
Maybe scaling demos
Others people mentioned
You'll find everything from page 11 to here.
Things SNES can't to without chips or things people thought MD (only) can't do.