What are 10 Things You Would Like to Change about the Genesis?

1. 4096 colors, 256 on screen
2. YM2608 Sound chip
3. Named Genesis in all regions*
4. Max realistic RAM that lets the console cost $200 in 1989 (not 1988, I don't care)
5. Composite video and stereo RCA out jacks on the back of the Model 2
6. 6-button controller from the start (mode button still exists, simply called the "R" button)
7. Internal hardware only changes with physical model, and only gets better
8. Support for on cart chips that add features such as scaling and rotation when needed
9. 32X as close to the PSX specs as possible, with as much ram as possible for a $200 November 1995 release
10. Saturn doesn't exist - replaced with a complete "Genesis 32CDX" unit, or some cool Genesis xxx name

* = I like rhyming as much as the next old school rapper, but Sega Mega just seems redundant.
Not to mention everyone just said "Do you have a Sega?" no one actually called it the real name.

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Originally Posted by PimpUigi

1. 4096 colors, 256 on screen
2. Sound chip that provides good voice quality...rest of the sound on Genesis, I wouldn't change.
3. Named Genesis in all regions*
4. Max realistic RAM that lets the console cost $200 in 1989 (not 1988, I don't care)

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For the Sound chip you could go with the YM2608, which the 2612 is a stripped down version of from the same family. (over the 2612, it adds a ADPCM channel with up to 16 kHz playback, plus 3 SSG channels -square wave with envelope control) This wouldn't be as cheap though. (but you'd then have 6 4-op FM channels, 6 square wave channels -3SSG+3PSG- a noise channel and the ADPCM channel) Also, if the SSG works identicaly to on the YM2149 you could also use that portion to play additional 8-bit resolution samples via a software trick. (what the Atari ST does, probably somewhat less quality than current DAC in the YM2612 -still a useful addition to the ADPCM channel)

Of course, the Sega-CD adds that nice Ricoh PCM chip. (roughly comperable to what SNES has) So if you favor add-ons (including a non-CD based one liek the Sega CD hardware) just wait for that.

As for RAM, perhaps they could replace the somewhat exotic PSRAM for a bigger block of (relatively cheaper) DRAM, along with additional refresh circuitry necessary. (128 KB of DRAM liek the SNES uses would be nice) The Genesis already has 2 MB of address sapce reserved for that, its just that only 64 kB were used.

Using 4 bit DACs for a 12-bit (4096 color) palette would have been nice, mayne not too much more expensive by a year later, as for more colors on screen, additional subpalettes (more 16-colro palettes, the SNES uses them, and the TG16 has a ton), plus it might have been cool to allow for something like a static (not hardware scrolling or such) 256 color screen (even if it had to be 1/2 horizontal resolution), particularly in combination with something like the Sega CD (or enhanced on-cart hardware).

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5. Composite video and stereo RCA out jacks on the back of the model 2

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If we're trying to be realistic here (a better console that would still be practical to sell to a mass market), that's not very cost effective. However, it would have been cool to add S-Video support with the model 2. (even by 1989 it wasn't common enough to really be woth supporting, but I like the idea of switching to a 15-pin D-sub connector -probably DE-15 like VGA, with plenty of pins to have mono, L+R stereo, RGB+Sync, +5v, gnd, composite, Y/C s-video, and some left over for future expansion without needing to switch standards again- like adding YPbPr component video output, which should only take 2 pins as Y is already on s-video, plus one pin left over -maybe used to switch NTSC/PAL RGB into VGA mode)

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7. Best sound and video chips in all hardware revisions. Or, they only get better/changed with new models of the system.

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Chips were never the problem, VA7 onward ASIC implementatin of the YM2612 is actually superior to the discrete chip, the problem is the mixing/amp circuity used. (hence why you can mod them for great quality sound) Same thing with (non-emulation) hardware clones.

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8. Hardware scaling and rotation
9. 32X has the Saturn's specs (especially ram)
10. Saturn doesn't exist - replaced with a complete "Genesis 32CDX" unit, or some cool Genesis xxx name.

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Being realistic again, scaling and rotation support would probably be too much realistically speaking. Maybe put work into an enexpensive chip on-cart to do that later on, or go with an add-on, or make due with software and psudo-scaling/rotation. (cell animation)

I really don't think a Gen+CD+32x is a particularly effective rout to go, coem out with one add-on at most (and not late in life like the 32x, earlier like the CD), then go straight to a integrated new system. (add-ons are too limited, an integrated system design is far more efficient with way more options to expand with more efficiently)

This went in-depth on this: http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8497&page=3 (see chilly will's posts) basicly enhance the CD ASIC, integrate it onto a single chip along with a twinned genesis VDP feeding into an external RAMDAC (with expanded master palette, preferably 24-bit, but 18 or 15-bit could be OK), allowing various modes, namely 256 color palettes at same resolution and # of layers as genesis, double res (640 or 512) 16-color palettes, or double the number of 16-color palettes and layers at standard res. (or a mix of standard res 256 and 16-color layers, like 2 16-color BG layers plus a 3rd 256 color layer) Then other stuff like add the SH-2s, RAM, add more RAM to genesis side, maybe a 2x CD drive, etc

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* = I like rhyming as much as the next old school rapper, but Sega Mega just seems redundant.
Not to mention everyone just said "Do you have a Sega?" no one actually called it the real name.

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Hmm, redundant eh? How about just SegaDrive then? :cool: (just as long as noone mispronounces it as Seegah as in some EU/UK ads)

I personally prefer the Genesis name though, only problem is the awkward pluralization. ;)
Both sound better than Master System though, that name just doesn't sound like a proper videogame console name to me.


Edit
If anything it should have been Nintendo that came out with something liek the 32x, they did indeed have a time gap to fill before N64 came out, and had continually postponed their claimed CD Add-on, plus wased their "32-bit stopgap" with the Virtual Boy. The SNES was an even better platform to go for, you've already got a display capable of 256 paletized colors from a 15-bit master palette.

The model 2 came out way after 1989, so the three RCA leads are completely plausible.


I know independent systems are better...more efficient, etc.

But no one was going to get a Sega Saturn.
It cost $500
If there was just a $200 add on for the Sega Genesis, that had the power of the Saturn...or a $400 system (Genesis+CD+32X)

Then things would have went better.
Weirder, learning period...but better.

If only Sega hadn't been so insistent with using the Saturn.
Sega could have had the Sega Playstation, or the Sega 64...but no...they had to make the Sega Saturn.

32X's sold like hot cakes. (sold out instantly)
And they weren't even worth it. (massive returns)

If 32X had been worth it, had a dedicated video processor like the Saturn, no Saturn around, Sega's reputation would not have tanked so quickly.
It would need to render in Triangles, instead of Squares, and it would need to come out with the right timing...but it could work for the stop gap.

Sega made two huge mistakes, one after the other...they should have went with upgrade, or new system.

Since there already was one upgrade, and they really wanted to try the upgrade route, it would have just been nice to get the upgrade route out of the way, with just one mistake, instead of two.

Either way, we get the Dreamcast next right?
In 1998 too...not too far away.

The mistake was even worse in the US, and maybe Europe, because the controller the Saturn launched with was terrible, ugly, and crappy.
That's like three mistakes.

No one trusted Sega after that, and that's why not enough people jumped on the Dreamcast band wagon.

They just should have forgone the 32X, and focused on the Saturn. Transplant the handful of worthwhile 32X titles to the Saturn (Knuckles Chaotix and Kolibri, for instance), and there would have been absolutely no reason for the 32X to exist.

Wait a tick. I thought this thread was about what we would like to change about the Genesis. So why the hell is everyone talking about the 32X and the Saturn?

All the sega genesis hardware is perfect. (especially model 1)

The only thing that I could ask is that sega had continued to produce games for the sega genesis for more time. Nothing else. ;)

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Originally Posted by PimpUigi

The model 2 came out way after 1989, so the three RCA leads are completely plausible.

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My '89 comment was specifically on S-video (and that the current M1 a/v port is OK for the time, though stereo would have been nice, the phono jack isn't that much of an issue)
But adding full RCA+DIN (not to mention SCART!) adds unnecessarily to cost, not just the added connectors, but additional mounting space/arrangements, and additional board connections. Something like a DE-15 jack should have taken about as much space as the old AV jack or EXT port, been more versitile (room for expansion on later systems, like component video), and non-propritary. (the latter point only really being important for retro/homebrew cable makers -though fitting along th elines of a lot of th estuf Sega engineered)
Other than the DE-15 (VGA connector), the less common 13-pin DIN connector is a consideration. (still enough pins to include S-video and component -tied to s-vid luma, but only if the dedicated mono pin was removed or composite video was removed -having S-video mixed into composite in the a/v cable)

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I know independent systems are better...more efficient, etc.
But no one was going to get a Sega Saturn.
It cost $500
If there was just a $200 add on for the Sega Genesis, that had the power of the Saturn...or a $400 system (Genesis+CD+32X)

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Then things would have went better.
Weirder, learning period...but better.[/QUOTE]

AFIK (in North America) the Saturn launch (or rather pre-emptively released) at $400, not $500, Sony still undercut them by $100 though. (and Saturn didn't meet that until a fiar bit after the PSX's release iirc)

But I wasn't suggesting the Saturn as the efficient design, it was somewhat flawed as well, and for some reason broke from Sega's trend of compatibility.
What I was suggesting was another system, as suggested in the aformentioned thread, derived from and compatible with the Genesis (and CD), saving development time and cost, enabling an earlier release, being at least somewhat cheaper than the Saturn hardware (moreso depending on how you make cuts, like a 1x vs 2x drive, and how much an dhow fast RAM is added). With both advantages and disadvantages in terms of power compared to the Saturn, but no more complex (and at least built on a familiar architecture), and powerful enough to compete in the 5th gen arena. (a better head start, like 32x time period, would have helped too, so long as a decent launch was made, again the 32x was handeled well enough in this respect, unlike the Saturn in the US)

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If only Sega hadn't been so insistent with using the Saturn.
Sega could have had the Sega Playstation, or the Sega 64...but no...they had to make the Sega Saturn.

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Well, who knows how the SGI chipset would have worked out with Sega, for Nintendo it proved somewhat problematic. (but Nintendo's lack of support for the programable microcode feature and cartridge media didn't help any)
As for Sega PSX, I was good on that idea whan I found out about it, but really, who knows what the end agreement would have been, look how Nintendo got screwed in the fine print with Sony on their disc system. (luckily for them they caught it in time to pull out)

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If 32X had been worth it, had a dedicated video processor like the Saturn, no Saturn around, Sega's reputation would not have tanked so quickly.
It would need to render in Triangles, instead of Squares, and it would need to come out with the right timing...but it could work for the stop gap.

Sega made two huge mistakes, one after the other...they should have went with upgrade, or new system.

Since there already was one upgrade, and they really wanted to try the upgrade route, it would have just been nice to get the upgrade route out of the way, with just one mistake, instead of two.

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THat's why I like the evolutionary, compatible console idea, it is an upgrade to the hardware, just not an add-on, and practically speaking, would end up being a good deal cheaper than buying both add-ons would for geneiss owners (with the Sega CD userbase too proportionally small to depend on directly), a good, consolidated, efficient, Super Genesis+CD console with competitive 5th gen capabilities should have been cheaper (not to mention more convienient) to make, distribut, and for customers to use (less space) than the add-on route. (and still cheaper an dmore efficient than a coresponding integrated neptune CD, in which case they'd then be supporting the add-ons ans consolidated system, even more complex!)

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Either way, we get the Dreamcast next right?
In 1998 too...not too far away.

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Yeah, but addressing piracy vulnerability from the start (in leu of the PSX) would have been nice, that and preferably make the controllers more like the Saturn 3D pad (really nice buttons and d-pad, plus th enormal cord location), and larger memory cards standard. Getting off topic here, but it would have helped int he Asian market to make the DC able to play VCDs out of the box. (it should easily have enough power to do it, probably SVCDS too -but didn't offer this afik)

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The mistake was even worse in the US, and maybe Europe, because the controller the Saturn launched with was terrible, ugly, and crappy.
That's like three mistakes.

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Umm, the Saturn wasn't really a mistake at all in Japan, it was Sega's most successful console in that region and was managed fairly well overall. That said, there should have been nothing to keep Chilly Willy's suggested system from having similar success.

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No one trusted Sega after that, and that's why not enough people jumped on the Dreamcast band wagon.

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Not enough previous Sega users at least, but from th epeople I know in general, they found the DC a rather attractive system to go for regardless, and a couple non-console games (one non-gamer in general, and one PC gamer) had ones as their last (and in one case, only ever) video game console. So they definitely reached out to new customers, but Sony was donig this way more, particularly as an affordable DVD player in the PS2. (getting some people who otherwise wouldn't have even gotten a console)

But yeah, problems in the 5th gen really hurt the DC's potential. (even so I'm not sure pulling the plug the way they did didn't hurt them more than following though could have)

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Originally Posted by jerry coeurl

Wait a tick. I thought this thread was about what we would like to change about the Genesis. So why the hell is everyone talking about the 32X and the Saturn?

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Well, the 32x and Sega CD are extensions of the genesis, so they're fair, and the Saturn is a bit off

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Originally Posted by PimpUigi

Not to mention everyone just said "Do you have a Sega?" no one actually called it the real name.

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Never in my life have I heard anyone in the UK say "Do you have a Sega?" it is, and always was refered to as the "MegaDrive" in conversation.

OK, good to know.
Here in the US, people really still refer to the Genesis as Sega.

Like, it was their only system or something.

Like if I ask someone what consoles they had growing up...

"Nintendo," "Sega," Super Nintendo, "PS1," PS2, and then the Wii (I think this is the stereotypical order people got consoles in this country, give or take N64 before PS2)

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Originally Posted by mick_aka

Never in my life have I heard anyone in the UK say "Do you have a Sega?" it is, and always was refered to as the "MegaDrive" in conversation.

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Even I sometimes call it "Sega", just because I'm around my GF and she doesn't give two shits what it is called. Same with the NES (Nintendo)

Any system beyond 16-bit I call by their actual name. I dunno why, I guess I'm just a complicated dude.

The MD is often called just a "SEGA" here in Sweden anyway.

Not getting into the CD or 32X, but what I'd have done to the MD:

1. Clock the 68000 at 12 MHz
2. 1 or 2 MB of RAM instead of 64 KB (2 MB is the max for Work RAM)
3. Clock the Z80 at 7.16 MHz in MD mode (saw that in an earlier post)
4. Connected INT line from FM chip to Z80 for more reliable timing of PCM
5. Parallel bank select register for Z80 instead of serial bank select
6. Give the Z80 multiple banks instead of one so that you could do multiple PCM sounds by adding them together. Just point each bank at a different sample. Four banks of 8 KB instead of one bank of 32 KB would have been much better.
7. Allow VDP to accumulate two (16 color) pixels to output as a single pixel with 256 colors. This would have half the resolution (160 instead of 320), but that wasn't a big deal at that time. The Atari did that with the GTIA - accumulated two 4 color pixels into a single 16 color pixel (resolution went from 160 to 80 wide).
8. Given the VDP two banks of VRAM, so the VDP could use one directly while the CPU had full access to the other bank. The BIGGEST problem on the MD as it is is that you have very limited access to the VRAM during the display. You either only update a few patterns per frame, or you spend multiple frames updating the whole display.
9. As mentioned in an earlier post, extend the palette to 12 or 15 bits instead of hilite/shadow.
10. Extend palette for 256 colors (goes along with 7 above).

All those were well within SEGA's abilities at the time. The more expensive parts of the above would be: faster 68000, faster Z80, more Work RAM, more VRAM, and higher resolution video DAC. All the rest is pretty simple and cheap.

Half the resolution is just scary.
Many games would not look anywhere near as good as they do.

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Originally Posted by PimpUigi

Half the resolution is just scary.
Many games would not look anywhere near as good as they do.

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It would look fine for backgrounds. Also consider that Doom for consoles used "low resolution" display - it outputs the same pixel twice for each column, so it's the same as what I proposed anyway. VR for MD used two pixels for each pixel output to do shading, so this would have allowed VR at the resolution it used, but with proper colors instead of "blended" pixels.

Yea but...Vectorman?
Sonic 3?
Sonic CD???

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Originally Posted by PimpUigi

Yea but...Vectorman?
Sonic 3?
Sonic CD???

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You don't HAVE to combine the pixels. So if you WANT 320 wide, you just stick to 16 colors. Also, many games (including Sonic) use "blending" to create more colors. So I don't think it would make a difference other than looking better on SVideo or RGB/component. Blending relies on the "smearing" that occurs with RF and composite to make two different color pixels seem like a different color. If you look at other threads here on SVideo and component output, you'll see screenshots where you get checker patterns of pixels instead of shades/colors. Allowing the programmer to choose to combine pixels with more colors would allow for more colorful backgrounds/sprites without the blending.