I thank you, Herr Schmitt!:D
You have expressed in short what I tried to say in a jumbo-post!
Not all English people hate us after all!
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I thank you, Herr Schmitt!:D
You have expressed in short what I tried to say in a jumbo-post!
Not all English people hate us after all!
I wish I could find something more offical then that but this what I found online and I not scanning any books.
http://gsteinbe.intrasun.tcnj.edu/ro...WilhelmII.html
Well, I never got to know him personally so I can't prove the opposite, but maybe Hitler was a nice lad too if you met him in private ? =PQuote:
Originally Posted by 108 Stars
AFAIK, the modernization and peace was a result of the participation of the then progressive working class party SPD. Without pressure from grass roots movements and the unions, there would not have been wealth nor democratic participation at all.
That would apply to Germany as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by 108 Stars
- If you watch two people that seem to hate each other according to your observations, but actually just one of them takes a gun and shoots the other in his stomach, while the other lying on the ground in pain shoots back, you would say that the guy lying on the ground was the more aggressive one ?
What I meant was that Germans never thought friendly of the "enemy" - even without reparations during pre-WW1, while in post-WW1 the reparations alone were _not_ the (only) reasons for the starvations. Although it seems general consent in the media and schools/universities that they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by 108 Stars
I don't need no bond to my country and no national identity. I am an individual and not just some German. I got my own identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by 108 Stars
Countries and borders are just made by man and I was born here by pure coincidence. I could have been born anywhere else on the world. If anything I am human.
Why would I have to wave a German flag ? Why would anyone ? I am ashamed of seeing people waving flags but that's my problem, I guess. What's the problem that you have when you're waving a German flag ? - I don't have a problem waving none so what's there to discuss ?
What identity does it lack ?Quote:
Originally Posted by 108 Stars
Anyway, that's some seriously fucked up shit there. I really don't know where to start.
If you think anyone acts or acted as puppets of some higher forces, you're underestimating humans - ...well, and democracy (which doesn't really surprise me).
People like Konrad Adenauer, Wilhelm Pieck and Walter Ulbricht were all but "puppets".
The constitutions of both the GDR and the FRG were written by German democrats and communists over the period of several years, and not forced by anyone else.
Adenauer wanted to found the FRG without the east since he hated socialism and wouldn't want to tolerate their influence (not much of a democrat there I guess). Five months after the FRG, the GDR was founded.
Regarding "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles": I wouldn't have a problem at all if the national hymn would have lost its remaining part as well. It's just some song some fucked up nationalist wrote eons ago. I can't believe they kept it even after WW2.
- and still after they bought the GDR from Gorbachev. >_<
Well, I am no fan of Napoleon, but he certainly wasn't a friend of monarchy.Quote:
Originally Posted by 108 Stars
Could you imagine that the vast majority of people did not want monarchy after WW2 ?Quote:
Originally Posted by 108 Stars
You got to remember that in 1945 even the CDU (our right-winged Christian conservative / libertarian party) wanted democracy and socialism (!) instead.
I agree completely. Europe was a tangled web of alliances and treaties back then, and with the powder keg that was (and still is) the Balkans, war seemed almost unavoidable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Smith
Whats this all about?Quote:
Originally Posted by 108 Stars
At least before WC'06, it's not been that common with most people to wave German flags, so while waving their flags some people felt intimidated by those not waving. The media probably had to change that so people can wave their flags without having to worry about possibly being stupid and numb.
I don't watch TV so am not sure about the discussions that 108 Stars mentioned, but I can imagine that the government wanted to showcase a celebrating nation during WC'06, so they started campaigns to strengthen nationalism ("Du bist Deutschland", which means "You are Germany"; and some others like "1. FC Deutschland", "Land der Ideen", etc. pp.). They hired a comparably young pseudo-punkband to do the official WC'06 hymn ("'54, '74, '90, 2006"), and produced millions of German flags and other useless merchandise shit in colors of the flag to show what a cool and groovy country Germany would be.
All of this does kinda remind me of the Arab governments handing out Danish flags to protesters to burn after the Mohammed cartoons had been published.
I thought maybe it was some banning or some negative connotation that somehow got linked to the German flag.
I remember Germany was a favorite destination for high school students, namely because they can go there and drink...legally.
Didnt Brazil beat them in the World Cup though?
Only Europeans would know the answer as nobody in the United States watches soccer.
I'm sure David Beckham only came here to play so he could be the only soccer superstar in the US.
Well I stopped watching after Mexico was eliminated but I think Brazil won.
Well, I kust say that Christuserloeserīs opinion is basically the whole opposite of mine; in about EVERY point he mentioned; this is a very good example of what I talked about. The negative propaganda that has hurt Germanyīs reputation so much in the inside that many people do not want to be proud of their nation, do not want to wave flags sometimes, and do not want to see how historians have said that much of what was said and written in the times after the big wars was not true; really saddening. It is what happens when you donīt think for yourself. German treatment of itīs own past is much harsher than foreign.
Konrad Adenauer was indeed a marionette, as was Ulbricht to a certain point. And once he acted too independently after Stalinīs death with the changed situation in the USSR he was replaced. Germans had no saying in the post-war decisions for a long, long time.
You can be an individual, no problem; but most individuals still like to band together, being it as fans of some soccer club, citizens of a city or a country. And for that, flags and hymns are important. The national hymn is nationalistic, of course. Thatīs the essence of a national hymn. But it is no worse than others; ever heard the text of the Marseilleise? Indeed, actions like "Du bist Deutschland!" were done to awaken people like you from your dislike for your country.
This is the aweful situation here, you are the prime example...you were tought not to think positive about Germany, as was I in school.
The constitutions were both guided by the winning forces; maybe you should start to watch TV, lots of documentaries about it and the freedom German politicians had in such matters. After the cold war infos have been flooding in. This constitution is not ours, never have we fought for it...it is a foreign object.
We do have to live with the crime of WWII, it cannot be undone; but that is no reason for us to self-torture us forever and try to distance ourselves from our home like you do; we have to accept our sins, but also have the right to defend ourselves against unjustified attacks. WWI with Germany as the lone nation responsible is unjustified; even Americans and British say so today! And Wilhelm a madman is also unjustified; never did he commit any inhuman crime, neither did he make attempts to conquer his neighbours before WWI had broken out nor did he begin this war on purpose. How can you compare him to a monster like Adolf Hitler?
Wilhelm being pressured by SPD....of course, but what does it change? He could have just acted like his father did and opress the party instead of taking up social ideas and making them a reality. He was so damn popular with the people he had no need to do that. But it is not good because it was not originally his own idea?
Did the majority of people not want monarchy after WWII? Maybe; sadly it never came to the test. However, do you think all people were very happy with their experiences with democracy? The Republic of Weimar had been a mess, the nation was in chaos thanks to that democracy; and it had a man elected in the end that had just destroyed the country. Democracy had already failed in Germany, and many were wishing back the "good old times" of the Kaiserreich.
The thing with who was agressive....oh my. There WAS nobody lying on the floor with Germany pointing a gun at them. There was Germany playing circus tricks with guns, showing off and being successful and others were not happy about it and waited for a chance to pull a trigger. And when Germany had foolishly helped itīs little brother Austria, who was aggressive, the time had come.
@Rusty
When the World Cup took place there was quite a fuss about being a Germany-fan. Was it really right that we wave German flags? Is showing national pride allowed? Can a historical thing like a Pickelhaube be used or is it bad taste because people might associate it with evil Germany in WWI or think we are still Nazis? There were the ones like Christuserloeser who said no, and it was a rather ridiculous discussion imho, but thankfully it seems a wall was overcome and people began to feel a bit of national pride and unity.
This was a nice feeling indeed; it is good to be able to show that I am proud of my country without being immediately associated with Neo-Nazis. I sure hope this developement goes on and people thinking like christuserloeser become fewer and fewer. I take the right to decide myself what I am proud of and what not; and WWI and Wilhelm II are a matter where I especially like to make my position clear and hope people will learn to judge that era fair.
All countries have made mistakes in the past. Even if we believe the Treaty of Versailles, that German was solely responsible for the First World War, is it the fault of the German people who had no democracy and had to follow the will of their Kaiser? The ordinary men suffered in the trenches just like the men on every side in that butchery of a war, began by an outdated system of absolutism, aristocracy and alliance, which is what truly started that four-year bloodbath. To deny nationalism to a populous who had no say in World War One is insane. Although, obviously, Hitler probably has more to do with this issue.
Most importantly, Italy won the last World Cup and David Beckham did it for the money.
108 Stars: A True German Patriot. Really helping Tanegashima with his essay.
Anyway, we can all be happy that Europe has learned itīs lesson after those 2 horrible wars. Who would have thought that all our countries would someday belong to a European Union?
He came for the fat paycheck. It's largely rumored that he'll be returning to England given his impact on the Galaxy has been nil at best. I believe Alexi Lalas is still the face of U.S. soccer, though that's certainly not a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Venture