so what is the BEST Genesis console (specifically)?

I keep hearing talks about High Def. Model 1 Genesi, etc. etc., so which version is really the best version and how can I identify it? I was fixing a PS2 last night (now I'm officially the repair guy for my local Play N Trade, yay) and I noticed a box full of consoles and was like "WTF?" I later realized they were all missing cords, but amongst them were 2 model 1 Genesi in reasonably good condition for their age (just needed some TLC to clean up). However, neither said High Def. and if I'm going to pick up a Model 1, I want it to be the absolute best version I can get since I already have a model 2 and I could only play Genesis games on the model 1 since I don't have the necessary connections to play the 32X nor the model 2 sega CD base expander (which isn't that big of a deal, but anyway). Are there some serial numbers I could check for or something? From what I understand, the earliest ones had better sound chips and were later combined/reduced to lower manufacturing costs, how can I tell if its one of the original/best model 1 Genesis model? A picture of the internals with the outer case top removed would be helpful as well.

note: I feel like I've made this thread before, but I can never get that damn search function to do what I want it to.

Joe Redifer owns the best Genesis console, specifically.

Those with High Definition Graphics and no TMSS are the best. I don't know what serial number they have.

Here's a thread about revisions of the model 1.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3351

At the moment, I only have a model 2. It has fantastic composite video output. It blows my SNES away in that regard. Unfortunately, it has awful sound output. The sound is muffled and, often, distorted. :(

OK, so it looks like the absolute original Genesis is the best (HD+no TMSS). Is the TMSS a physical chip/part that can be seen by examining the board or is it something written into the BIOS? Also, I noticed the non-TMSS cannot be overclocked, which is the best Genesis for overclocking? Ideally, I want to have my current model 2, another model 2 as a backup for my 32X and Sega CD, a non-TMSS HD Model 1, and an overclocked Model 1 or 2 (whichever is best/easiest/most reliable to overclock).

I think it is in the BIOS. Non-TMSS can be overclocked AFAIK.

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Originally Posted by Zebbe

I think it is in the BIOS. Non-TMSS can be overclocked AFAIK.

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according to the model 1 link above it says the non-TMSS can't be overclocked. Does anyone know if a model 2 can be overclocked? all the FAQs/howto's I find deal with model 1's and don't specify which build. Also, I would prefer to deal with a less loved model so if I mess it up its no big deal. I mean, an HD model is too rare and too historically important (as the best stock hardware possible) to tear up in the name of playing Viewpoint at full speed.

Where the hell is TmEE when you need him...

I couldn't bypass my brother so I could be here when needed...

TMSS is integrated into the I/O controller of the system, and cannot be diasbled... you can bypass it, but that will break compatibility with 32X and MCD.

I myself prefer a modded up MD2 ( http://www.hot.ee/tmeeco/MYSMD2.JPG )over MD1...

According to the other thread, I have two Rev.1's. Nice. I tossed that link up on Atariage, there are Sega fans there, too (just got a little chewed out by one, ouch[and I'm a Sega fan!]).

And now I just need to splurge on the DIN cables for them.

Nathan

My Genesis has Super Laser sound, Sega manufactured this model for me specifically. The sound is higher quality than real life sound. I'll sell it to you for $500,000. Also all the graphics are chock full of Mega power + super amazing blast processed stereo sound, there are 16 controller ports and it can be updated to run Dreamcast games with a small add-on.

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Originally Posted by Gentlegamer

Joe Redifer owns the best Genesis console, specifically.

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Damn straight. My Genesis has way more experience than any other Genesis. It has played far more games and run more code. It is better, stronger, faster.

IMO the best ones you can get are the "High Definition Graphics" model 1's WITH TMSS. From what I gather the picture and audio quality are the same between those and the ones without TMSS, except you can overclock the ones WITH TMSS, which to me is a better option than not having TMSS, which I don't care about at all.

Plural of Genesis should be either Genisii or Genium, not Genesi.

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

At the moment, I only have a model 2. It has fantastic composite video output. It blows my SNES away in that regard.

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Ehh? You either have a mod'ed genesis or there's something wrong with your snes. I only wish any of Genesis' had nice composite output :(

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Originally Posted by TmEE

I couldn't bypass my brother so I could be here when needed...

TMSS is integrated into the I/O controller of the system, and cannot be diasbled... you can bypass it, but that will break compatibility with 32X and MCD.

I myself prefer a modded up MD2 ( http://www.hot.ee/tmeeco/MYSMD2.JPG )over MD1...

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is there a how to anywhere for overclocking MD2s? I want to get one just for overclocking and clock the 68000 to 10~13 Mhz based on the various overclocking performance videos I've seen (any more and things get glitchy, any less you don't really get much benefit).

The procedure is exact same on all models which have discrete 68K, just cut the clock signal and add your own. MD2s, Nomads, Xeyes, Wondermegas will go as high as 10MHz, all above is very unstable. MD1 without TMSS goes up to 12MHz and MD1 with TMSS should go quite high... max stable clock is unknown to me as I've got no such machine to test. 12MHz is perfect clock for most games. Also, when you have 68K overclocked, MCD will not boot, and 32X games will experience random lockups (all I've tested). So a switch is more than desirable.

Uhm...my MD has no TMSS, and it is overclocked.

I know your TMSSless MD1 has overclock switch ;) All machines overclock, but how much, depends on the model.

I tried OCing my Model 2... didn't work. Clock may have been too high; I think I tried 12MHz and it didn't like it. I think OCing the Model 1 is probably easier because the 68K is slightly different and the pins are thicker and farther apart from each other.

As said, MD2 hates anything above 10MHz... 11MHz works, but not too long, VDP will go crazy eventually.

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Originally Posted by TmEE

The procedure is exact same on all models which have discrete 68K, just cut the clock signal and add your own. MD2s, Nomads, Xeyes, Wondermegas will go as high as 10MHz, all above is very unstable. MD1 without TMSS goes up to 12MHz and MD1 with TMSS should go quite high... max stable clock is unknown to me as I've got no such machine to test. 12MHz is perfect clock for most games. Also, when you have 68K overclocked, MCD will not boot, and 32X games will experience random lockups (all I've tested). So a switch is more than desirable.

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even still, I'm not very familiar with overclocking, is there a step by step anywhere with pictures? I'm not worried about SCD or 32X function because this will be a dedicated overclocked console primarily for A) playing games that have slowdown at full speed (duh) and B) to show off my 1337 haxor skills and make my friends crap themselves that I have an overclocked Genesis. If the mod proves reliable and easy enough to do, I may even start offering the mod for sale since I'm the repair guy at my local play n trade now and I'm sure there would be a few people that would go "OMG! UVeRCLokkEd TeH GeNeSAyz!? nO wAI!" and probably pay $20-$30 or more to have it done (depending on how long it takes to do and how good the performance is). Oh yeah, and when you say MD1 with TMSS, you mean ALL MD1s with TMSS, not just the High Def. models?

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

At the moment, I only have a model 2. It has fantastic composite video output. It blows my SNES away in that regard.

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

Ehh? You either have a mod'ed genesis or there's something wrong with your snes. I only wish any of Genesis' had nice composite output :(

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No, it's bone stock. Compared to my SNES, it displays almost no dot crawl or color bleed. The SNES has a severe case of dot crawl.

BTW, what model of Genesis do you have?

3 model 1's , two are original "HD" versions, and about 5-6 model 2's.

It's my understanding that the audio quality of the model 1 is superior to the model 2, but does the composite video quality of the model 1 compare to the composite video quality of the model 2?

No. Composite on most Model 2s is incredibly dirty due to the @#%^ video encoder known as the Samsung KA2195D. The video is highly distorted, especially along the edges of sprites, and has noise, though not to the extent of a Top-loader NES, but still noticeable. The Genesis with the best composite output, at least from what I've experienced, is the VA7 Model 1. Its sound quality sucks, but with TmEE's Audio Mod, you can significantly improve its sound quality. Also, if you have any CXA1145Ps/Ms lying around(M preferable, as it's surface-mount like the KA2195D, those are typically found on VA7 Model 1s, though some Model 2s already have them pre-installed from the factory), you can replace the KA2195D with it for improved composite quality, plus, you get S-Video back, as the KA2195 generates S-Video signals(Chroma/Luminance) in the chip, but doesn't output it anywhere.

What is the video quality of the early Model 1's with the EXT port and "High Definition Graphics" written around the rim of the cartridge port?

I currently have a model 2 with excellent composite video output, but terrible audio quality--or at least what I believe to be terrible audio quality because I can't believe that ALL Genesis consoles would sound this poor.

I want to replace my model 2 with an early model 1, which, AIUI, has superior audio quality, but I don't want to then end up with the reverse situation where the audio is good, but the video is poor.

In terms of both video and audio quality, am I going to be satisfied with an early model 1?

yes you are, Model1 is as good as it gets without modding.

For overclocking MDs, download a 68000 datasheet, you can get the 68000 pinout there... then you locate the clock pin, cut the trace leading to it, and now you buy a "metal can" oscillator, TTL/CMOS compatible one with 10MHz output which you connect to the CPU pin (you also need to power the oscillator with 5V... pinout in the oscillators datasheet). That's the procedure... its same in ALL machines which have discrete CPU.

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Originally Posted by TmEE

yes you are, Model1 is as good as it gets without modding.

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Thanks for answering my question.

When you're overclocking your CPU, you're overclocking system ram and cart roms as well. There's no guarantee that just because the CPU is overclocking fine, that the memory in every unit or cart is going to operate error free 100% of the time.

It'd be cool to see an overclocking project where the CPU is overclocked at a much higher rate on internal operations VS memory access - like the 486 clock doublers. Memory access is at normal clock rate while internal operations are clocked higher. I've seen this done on a 68B09E for a CoCo 3 project.

Regarding audio/video quality: If you want a good picture, you could send your Genesis to ooXxXoo to do an S-Video mod. Or buy a RGB to YUV component transcoder if your TV takes Y'CbCr/Y'PbPr.


http://www.retro-console.com/HPIM6143.JPG

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

When you're overclocking your CPU, you're overclocking system ram and cart roms as well.

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If that's the case, then why does, say, Sonic 2 or viewpoint still play at the same speed minus slowdown when overclocked?

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Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

If that's the case, then why does, say, Sonic 2 or viewpoint still play at the same speed minus slowdown when overclocked?

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Memory comes in tolerance ranges, they're not exactly "run at this speed or else it'll fail every time". 150ns for example could operate at a faster rate, but it's not guaranteed you'll get correct read/fetch 100% of the time. You run the risk that some of the carts will fail on occasion for a read when running the memory at a faster then what is spec'd. How far depends on the tolerance range, memory manufacture, etc. It's the same as with overclocking PC ram nowadays.

memories (SRAM, ROM) in MD handle overclocking rather well, but not the rest of the system, especially VDP or the I/O controller. In case of MD, the accesses gets faster, and at some point, the memory and other components will start missing reads/writes as the signal pulses are too fast for them... that starts to happen at over 20MHz when the system is not in very stable state anyway (VDP has difficulties then)...

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

What is the video quality of the early Model 1's with the EXT port and "High Definition Graphics" written around the rim of the cartridge port?

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I own one like that with a VA3 motherboard(no TMSS), and for some reason, I see some noise on the screen(very hard to notice) and rainbow-colored stripes running down the screen(most noticeable on white screens). From my experience, it's best to use a VA6 Model 1(this one has the EXT. port removed, but the solder joints to add it are there) if you don't want to solder a new audio circuit. If you do, get a VA7 Model 1(this one is like the VA6, but instead of having the Power/AV/RF ins/outs near the edge of the casing, they're moved a little further in). I do happen to have a VA5 Model 1, but it's in serious need of repairs. I will test it once I repair it, as that one has the EXT. port, but is the first revision with TMSS. I've got to repair a lot of stuff on that one(replace the processor, add a new CXA1145P, replace the LED assembly, replace the black pieces behind the controller ports and EXT. port... yeah, major repairs, and I may even need to repair the cartridge slot, as the "Produced by or Under License from Sega Enterprises LTD." screen shows up, but doesn't boot the cartridge that's been inserted).

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Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

If that's the case, then why does, say, Sonic 2 or viewpoint still play at the same speed minus slowdown when overclocked?

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Most games didn't program the velocity of the objects to be based on the speed of the CPU. At least, well-designed games didn't.

There must be like a million zillion model 2s missing cords out there. Everytime I go to flea markets and thrift stores I trip over like 4 of them!

The "High Definition Graphics" version is the best because it has more resolution than real life!

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Originally Posted by MN12BIRD

There must be like a million zillion model 2s missing cords out there. Everytime I go to flea markets and thrift stores I trip over like 4 of them!

The "High Definition Graphics" version is the best because it has more resolution than real life!

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You think model 2's are bad, try Sega CDs! I tracked eBay for MONTHS trying to snipe a cheap Sega CD and probably 75% of them are listed untested with no cables. I don't know why people are so irresponsible/sloppy to lose cables like that. The worst part is that cables sell for alot of money, sometimes $10-$15 for OEM NOS stuff, but its also nice because it means cable-less systems are almost free, which is why sooner or later I'm hoping I'll find a friend with a Genesis with lost cables and I'll be like "dude, its worthless, I'll give you $5."

better get these glasses to fully enjoy your HD lifestyle:

So how does the CDX compare to other Genesis models for audio and video quality? That's my go-to Genesis because of it's small size, but never tried any direct comparisons to other models.

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Originally Posted by bones

So how does the CDX compare to other Genesis models for audio and video quality? That's my go-to Genesis because of it's small size, but never tried any direct comparisons to other models.

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If I can piggyback, how does it compare to the X'Eye as well? I've considered picking one up due to its smaller size, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice the A/V improvements just for it.