Top 100 Mega Drive Games

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Originally Posted by jesus.arnold

there was only one version of the game, I'm talking about the original version made in the UK, which obviously another company in the US (possibly owned by Konami) bought and distributed in North America afterwards, I didn't realise you were from the US, this means that you were buying re-packaged games that originated in the UK without realising it.

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No, most of the titles out of Europe were pretty obvious. We knew about European developers like Bitmap Brothers and Psygnosis; They were the Amiga elite. We had also seen titles published by Ocean. Most Amiga stores sold European Amiga magazines like Amiga Power.

Our version of After Burner was published by Sega, and Konami did the same with Super C. We did get a port of the European version of Golden Axe, and it was botched, because the game froze up on the final boss.

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Wasn't this discussion about the fact that there were no Japanese programmed games for those machines? what's the point in bringing up an American company?

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You said they had no interest in doing so, when in fact they had North American divisions that did handle porting the titles over to our country. European software publishers took a more active role in getting Japanese games ported over to the Amiga and C-64, and your area of the world saw far more Japanese arcade games because of it.

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It seems Elite Systems never published games in North America, if you are an Amiga fan it's likely that you would've played many games funded by them (Ghosts N' Goblins, Space Harrier, Buggy Boy, Joe and Mac, Paperboy, Ikari Warriors, Bomb Jack) they pretty much spent their whole time buying the rights to Japanese arcade games then outsourcing the development to another UK company, obviously as the 3rd stage of this they would either then get another company to distribute in the US or a US company (possibly even the original creators if they had a good distibution network in the US) would buy their product to distribute it themselves.

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The early years of the Amiga in North America had mostly home grown titles on it. We saw titles from Europe like Shadow of the Beast and Speedball, but for the most part, it was companies like EA, Mindscape, Accolade, SSI, Cinemaware and such that developed games for the North American Amiga.

Here are a few from my personnal collection.

Cinemaware

Accolade/SSI

MAXIS

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I never said they (EA) didn't do anything themselves, just not much, and you didn't name many games, you name 3 or 4 games for the Amiga as though it's proof that the US supported it, it would be impossible for me to name a small fraction of the games made in Europe, Ocean made nearly 90 odd games alone.

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EA brought over a lot more than 4 games to the Amiga. They did share quite a few games that they had developed for other computers, but some of the titles were developed on the Amiga first.You can see all of the Amiga games published by EA on this list

I have 6 EA games in my personnal collection and I know they had many more I had passed on.

EA Games

EA Games 2

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I don't think it's easy to understand the degrees of difference we're talking about here between the US and Europe.

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I never denied that, but like I said before, you're selling the North American market short if you think everything we had was from Europe.

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In Europe the Amiga was one of the biggest games machines ever made, it's sales completely obliterated that of the NES, and it was popular for nearly 10 years.

Also Commodore 64 games were still being sold just about everywhere in the UK until around 92' and they still had much more shelf space than the NES got

Commodore were probably by far the biggest name in the European home gaming industry during the 80s, not Nintendo or Sega (Sega pretty much had the Arcade industry sewn up though)

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The Amiga probably had about a 5 year window in North America and it was the gamers computer during that time. I don't know how well the PC (IBM) was accepted in Europe, but by 1991 it had became a very respectable gaming machine in North America and the hardware had finally caught up to what the Amiga was doing.

We had 3 Amiga stores in Dallas and they had survived by bringing over European titles, but it was pretty much too little too late by then. The PC and less expensive consoles had become the choice for gamers by then.

The C-64 was a very popular computer here, from about 1983-1988. You could buy software for it in stores like Toys R Us and B Dalton Bookstores. I don't know of any other computer in North America, that had its software sold in those locations, or in as many stores as the C-64. The popularity of Super Mario Bros. was probably the biggest reason why the NES was able to break the hold that computers like the C-64 had on the market.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

No, most of the titles out of Europe were pretty obvious. We knew about European developers like Bitmap Brothers and Psygnosis; They were the Amiga elite. We had also seen titles published by Ocean. Most Amiga stores sold European Amiga magazines like Amiga Power.

Our version of After Burner was published by Sega, and Konami did the same with Super C. We did get a port of the European version of Golden Axe, and it was botched, because the game froze up on the final boss.

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As I said before there was only one version of Alien Syndrome, just like there was only one version of Golden Axe, you're correct that sometimes there were two version made for each market (like with Afterburner) but this was not the case with those games. There was also only a North American version of Super C.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

You said they had no interest in doing so, when in fact they had North American divisions that did handle porting the titles over to our country.

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OK for one thing Konami couldn't be bothered to port Super C themselves and had it outsourced, and number 2 we don't know if it was even a decision from Japan at all, it may of been handled by Konami US, or Unlimited Software may have decided to make the port and then asked permision from Konami US for the go-ahead.

At the end of the day you are saying that the fact that Konami may have released 2 or 3 games none of which they programmed themselves as being evidence that they were interested in the Amiga when they personally coded and released 60 odd NES games in a similar timeframe.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

EA brought over a lot more than 4 games to the Amiga. They did share quite a few games that they had developed for other computers, but some of the titles were developed on the Amiga first.You can see all of the Amiga games published by EA on this list

I have 6 EA games in my personnal collection and I know they had many more I had passed on.

EA Games

EA Games 2

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And again you've posted and extremely small handfull of games, as I said earlier Ocean made about 80-90 games, The budget label Codemasters released around 50 games, Core released about 30 games, Domark released 50 odd games, Gremlin Graphics released around 50 games, Millenium released 30 odd games, Psygnosis released 70 odd games. This is scratching the surface of just the UK companies! my knowledge of companies from other parts of Europe is much more lacking.

from France - Infogrammes released just over 40 games, Loriciel released about 30 games, Titus released nearly 30 games

from Germany - Rainbow Arts released nearly 50 games

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Originally Posted by gamevet

The Amiga probably had about a 5 year window in North America and it was the gamers computer during that time.

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Yes here is another problem, you are talking about the Amiga specifically as a "gamers computer" you're separating it from games machines such as the NES and putting it in it's own category, in Europe the Amiga was one of the biggest games machines and one of the biggest computers.

Computers were the de-facto standard for playing video game in Europe until probably around 92' not consoles

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Originally Posted by gamevet

The C-64 was a very popular computer here, from about 1983-1988.

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According to North American sales figures the C64 was starting to die out by 1986, and was being quickly overtaken by the IBM PC, it's main height of popularity was around 83-85, whereas after 86' (in the UK at least) the C64 gained it's second wind and came back in force as a budget machine.

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Originally Posted by jesus.arnold

OK for one thing Konami couldn't be bothered to port Super C themselves and had it outsourced, and number 2 we don't know if it was even a decision from Japan at all, it may of been handled by Konami US, or Unlimited Software may have decided to make the port and then asked permision from Konami US for the go-ahead.

At the end of the day you are saying that the fact that Konami may have released 2 or 3 games none of which they programmed themselves as being evidence that they were interested in the Amiga when they personally coded and released 60 odd NES games in a similar timeframe.

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I said they were interested enough in the Amiga, to release Super C on the system. Konami games published by Konami or another company

Konami of America was established in 1982, long before the NES or Amiga. Konami was obviously interested in getting their titles to North America and having Super C on the Amiga, and several other titles on the C-64 as well, would make it pretty apparent that they were interested in the thriving North American computer market.

Sega had also published Outrun (Probe) and Super Hang-on for the Amiga. Long before that, they had published a bunch of titles on the Atari 2600. Sega was defineatly interested in the North American market, as a place to port and publish their titles.

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And again you've posted and extremely small handfull of games, as I said earlier Ocean made about 80-90 games, The budget label Codemasters released around 50 games, Core released about 30 games, Domark released 50 odd games, Gremlin Graphics released around 50 games, Millenium released 30 odd games, Psygnosis released 70 odd games. This is scratching the surface of just the UK companies! my knowledge of companies from other parts of Europe is much more lacking.

from France - Infogrammes released just over 40 games, Loriciel released about 30 games, Titus released nearly 30 games

from Germany - Rainbow Arts released nearly 50 games

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Again, you're discounting the amount of software that was released on the Amiga in North America, by N. American publishers and developers. I even posted a source with most of EA's titles, and that list includes over 30 home grown titles published by them for the Amiga; even more than what they had imported from Europe.

Here is the list:

688 Attack Sub
Adventure Construction set
Air, Land, Sea
Alien Fires
Alternate Reality
Archon: Light and Dark
Archon II: Adept
Artic Fox
The Bard's Tale
The Bard's Tale 2
THe Bard't Tale III: Thieves of Fate
Battle Chess
Battle Chess II: Chinese Chess
Birds of Prey
Black Crypt (Amiga exclusive)
Budokan: The Martial Spirit
Centurion: Defender of Rome
Chuch Yeager's Advanced Flight Trainer
Desert Strike: Return to the Gulf
Dr. J and Larry Bird go One on One
F/A 18 Interceptor
Hard Nova
The Immortal
Labyrinth of Time (Amiga CD32)
Marble Madness
PGA Tour Golf
Road Rash
Seven Cities of Gold
Star Flight
Sim City
Will Harvey's Zany Golf

Another strong supporter was SSI:

AD&D:

Champions of Krynn
Dark Queen of Krynn
Death knights of Krynn
Dragon Strike
Eye of the Beholder
Eye of the Beholder II: Legend of Darkmoon
Eye of the BeholderIII: Assualt on Myth Dranon
Gateway to the Savage Frontier
Heroes of the Lance
Secret of the Silver Blades

and
Sword of Aragon
Demon's Winter
Phantasie
Phantasie III: Wrath of Nikademus
Pools of Darkness
Questron
Questron II
Roadwar 2000
Roadwar 2000 Europa
Treasures of the Savage Frontier
Warlords
Cyber Empire
Dragons of Flame

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Yes here is another problem, you are talking about the Amiga specifically as a "gamers computer" you're separating it from games machines such as the NES and putting it in it's own category, in Europe the Amiga was one of the biggest games machines and one of the biggest computers.

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I was talking about how the Amiga was received as a computer in North America. It's closest competitor at the time was the Apple IIC, MAC and DOS (was still pretty primative in comparison.) The Atari ST was dead on day one here.

EA had a lot of success with the C-64 and continued their support on to the Amiga because of it. EA was one of the strongest supporters of the Amiga, but they weren't the only company that moved from the C-64 to the Amiga. EA wouldn't be the company they are today, if not for the strong sales they had received early on from the home computer.

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Computers were the de-facto standard for playing video game in Europe until probably around 92' not consoles

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It's not hard to see why, when Europe has always been behind the curve when it comes to getting the latest software and hardware available.

Still, this has little to do with the fact that N. American publishers were showing strong support for the Amiga here.

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According to North American sales figures the C64 was starting to die out by 1986, and was being quickly overtaken by the IBM PC, it's main height of popularity was around 83-85, whereas after 86' (in the UK at least) the C64 gained it's second wind and came back in force as a budget machine.

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I don't know why you're bringing the popularity of the C-64 into this discussion?

My original post was that you were discounting the amount of North American software support that the Amiga was receiving. Considering that the system only sold about 6 million units world-wide, I'd say the support the Amiga received here was more than adequate and was more than likely fueled by the success of the C-64 in North America.

The C-64 was still very lively in North America, beyond 1987. I had no problems finding software (at retail) for the system up to the point when I had moved on to the Amiga in 89.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

I said they were interested enough in the Amiga, to release Super C on the system. Konami games published by Konami or another company

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out of that list of only 9 games at least 6 of them were made in Europe and none of them were coded by Konami themselves.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Konami of America was established in 1982, long before the NES or Amiga. Konami was obviously interested in getting their titles to North America and having Super C on the Amiga.

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LOL, yeah obviously Konami set up a US branch to distribute Super C on the Amiga, it wasn't to... say... distribute their arcade games or anything.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Sega had also published Outrun (Probe) and Super Hang-on for the Amiga.

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Who cares?!!? they didn't actually make any games did they? all they did was take succesful ports of their games from Europe and distribute them in the US for some extra cash.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Again, you're discounting the amount of software that was released on the Amiga in North America, by N. American publishers and developers. I even posted a source with most of EA's titles, and that list includes over 30 home grown titles published by them for the Amiga; even more than what they had imported from Europe.

Here is the list:

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There's 54 games on that list, what you've just shown is that the combined library's of the major US developers makes up just over half the size of Oceans games alone

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Originally Posted by gamevet

I was talking about how the Amiga was received as a computer in North America. It's closest competitor at the time was the Apple IIC, MAC and DOS (was still pretty primative in comparison.) The Atari ST was dead on day one here.

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Yes and I was explaining that the Amiga in Europe was succesful in the gaming market and the home computer market, unless you've got some figures saying the Amiga outsold the NES in the US i'm going to say that it didn't take the gaming market there.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

It's not hard to see why, when Europe has always been behind the curve when it comes to getting the latest software and hardware available.

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We got a hell of a lot more of the best C64 and Amiga software before the US did, and a lot of the time the US never got the best software.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

My original post was that you were discounting the amount of North American software support that the Amiga was receiving. Considering that the system only sold about 6 million units world-wide, I'd say the support the Amiga received here was more than adequate and was more than likely fueled by the success of the C-64 in North America.

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Nearly 5.5 million of those 6 million sales are from Europe with around 500,000-600,000 for the US.

@jesus.arnold

Yeah, Dizzy was known around here too....back in the C64-days England was regarded as THE place for software.

About the whole Europe vs USA & Japan thing:
Of course there were games from the USA, but it is also true that while most US developers focused on the NES the European developers put all their power into the homecomputers, making them the most important developers in that market. That does not in any way lower the quality of US-games, but still more games came from Europe. And I understand that the list of games from Japan available on homecomputers is irritating, but the truth is that hardly ever a single coder from the company that owned the franchise was ever involved in the development. It was just more cost effective this way; companies like Konami had their US-divisions to publish Konami games themselves in NA instead of licensing them and let others make cash with them; but still an NES game sold 10 times as much as a homecomputer game in the US, so it was natural for them to put all their efforts into the NES; in Europe where the NES was unimportant smaller companies just licensed games and developed computer ports, and those were in turn a cheap way for the US division of Konami to earn some money from the computer market they were not willing to spend recources on themselves.

It was a win-win-situation: Europeans wanted the games on computers and licensed them, and companies like Konami could sell these ports in the US again without having to spend money on development.

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Originally Posted by jesus.arnold

out of that list of only 9 games at least 6 of them were made in Europe and none of them were coded by Konami themselves.

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Really, why don't you back up one of your facts, with an actual link.

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LOL, yeah obviously Konami set up a US branch to distribute Super C on the Amiga, it wasn't to... say... distribute their arcade games or anything.

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Now you're just being stupid. Do you honestly believe that the only computer in North America Konami was interested in was an Amiga?

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Who cares?!!? they didn't actually make any games did they? all they did was take succesful ports of their games from Europe and distribute them in the US for some extra cash.

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You're pulling facts out of your ass now. Published and developed by Konami means just that.

Sega was publishing games on the Atari 2600, long before the C-64 and Amiga. Did those games come from Europe as well?

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There's 54 games on that list, what you've just shown is that the combined library's of the major US developers makes up just over half the size of Oceans games alone

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That's 54 original titles, unlike most of what Ocean published. I really don't feel like listing the stuff by Dynamix, Accolade, Cinematronic, Activision, Mindscape, Broderbund and the many other companies that were backing the Amiga.

Ocean (and several other European publishers) is known for publishing licensed crap. Most of those games were utter trash and really weren't designed for the controller the Amiga had. Did anyone really need Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat on the Amiga? I have more respect for what Psygnosis, Domark and The Bit Brothers did for the Amiga, than Ocean.

The whole point was that you are totally overlooking what North America did with the Amiga, because of what Europe was doing. Europe dragged along a dead computer, far longer than it should have existed. Most of the European software came out, after North America pulled the plug.

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Yes and I was explaining that the Amiga in Europe was succesful in the gaming market and the home computer market, unless you've got some figures saying the Amiga outsold the NES in the US i'm going to say that it didn't take the gaming market there.

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The NES has nothing to do with this conversation. Still, I truely doubt that Nintendo couldn't sell 5 million NES consoles in Europe.

I wouldn't exactly call selling 5 million units "taking any market." If that's all it takes, the Colecovision was huge success than.

The first 2 years of the Amiga were wasted in North America, because they tried to sell the over-priced Amiga 1000. Europe was lucky enough to enter around the time the 500 came about.

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We got a hell of a lot more of the best C64 and Amiga software before the US did, and a lot of the time the US never got the best software.

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I'd love to see that list. Most of what is considered the best on the C-64 was produced in North America. And your delusional if you believe Europe was playing the C-64 and Amiga, before the very country they were launched/marketed in.

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Nearly 5.5 million of those 6 million sales are from Europe with around 500,000-600,000 for the US.

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:lol:

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/sales.html

North America = 700,000
Australia New Zealand = 350,000
UK = 1.5 million
German = 1.3 million
France = 250,000
Italy = 600,000
Other European Countrie = 150,000

You mean because the Amiga was dead in the USA Europeans should have st6opped supporting it as well? Now that´s arrogant. Why would the Amiga have no place in a market where systems like SNES and MD did not offer much more technically?

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Originally Posted by 108 Stars

You mean because the Amiga was dead in the USA Europeans should have st6opped supporting it as well? Now that´s arrogant. Why would the Amiga have no place in a market where systems like SNES and MD did not offer much more technically?

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No, not at all. I just find it funny how that since Europe kept making games for the Amiga, that everything made in North America became crap. Pull out all of the arcade conversions and you'll probably have a pretty equal amount of quality software between the two regions.

Most of Europe got the Amiga around 1987, in comparison to 1985 with N. America. The N. American publishers pretty much pulled the plug @ 1991, while Europe kept chugging along for another 3 or 4 years. Even if the Amiga had sold 5 million units in North America, it still would have been dead by 1993; The market (and technology) had already moved past it.

I just pulled out an issue of Amiga Power from 1992. Inside that issue they were showcasing several N. American titles, including Gunship 2000 and Black Crypt.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Really, why don't you back up one of your facts, with an actual link.

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I didn't bother backing it up because anyone with even a basic knowledge of videogames should already know this to be the truth, Probe (Cheltenham England) made Back to the Future 3 and the two turtles games, Batman Returns was made by Denton Designs (Liverpool England), Novotrade (Hungary) made Blades of Steel and Castlevania, all you needed to do was look at the link that you yourself posted to find this information.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Now you're just being stupid. Do you honestly believe that the only computer in North America Konami was interested in was an Amiga?

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You are the one who made the ridiculous statement saying that Konami started their US branch due to the fact that they were obviously interested in bringing Super C to the Amiga not me.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

You're pulling facts out of your ass now. Published and developed by Konami means just that.

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Nobody has said that those games were developed by Konami, Unless of course you're using Mobygames like some kind of amateur not realising that half the time whichever member of the public who writes the info usually just copies it for all the different ports.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Sega was publishing games on the Atari 2600, long before the C-64 and Amiga. Did those games come from Europe as well?

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I have absolutely no idea how much interest the Japanese had with the Atari 2600, and seeing as this discussion has nothing to do with the system I don't see what bearing this point has on anything

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Ocean (and several other European publishers) is known for publishing licensed crap. Most of those games were utter trash and really weren't designed for the controller the Amiga had. Did anyone really need Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat on the Amiga? I have more respect for what Psygnosis, Domark and The Bit Brothers did for the Amiga, than Ocean.

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Ocean were known for making games with the highest production values and best programming, until the early to mid ninetees when they became a pile of turd that released anything for a quick buck.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

The whole point was that you are totally overlooking what North America did with the Amiga, because of what Europe was doing.

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No that was never the point, you made it the point after I said that there were few US companies backing the Amiga, I never said anything about the US software being bad, or unimportant, I just said there wasn't much of it.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Europe dragged along a dead computer, far longer than it should have existed. Most of the European software came out, after North America pulled the plug.[/b]

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Yeah because people should move onto the next biggest thing whether there's still good software coming out or not, why exactly are you on a retro gaming forum?

Oh yeah and enlighten me, when exactly did North America pull the plug on the NES?

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Originally Posted by gamevet

I truly doubt that Nintendo couldn't sell 5 million NES consoles in Europe.

I wouldn't exactly call selling 5 million units "taking any market." If that's all it takes, the Colecovision was huge success than.

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I didn't say that the Amiga took the gaming market in Europe, I said it was successful in that market, I was just trying to put into perspective that there would be little of the gaming market left over in North America when you take into consideration the NES' sales penetration.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

I'd love to see that list. Most of what is considered the best on the C-64 was produced in North America.

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The only amazing US C64 games I can think of were Impossible Mission and the Lucas Arts games, for the most part US C64 games looked like they belonged on an Atari 2600 and if you want a list then just look at the Lemon64 one and you'll find a lot of European games even though the site is US centric.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

And your delusional if you believe Europe was playing the C-64 and Amiga, before the very country they were launched/marketed in

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Where the Amiga models are concerned there was never a very pronounced difference in release dates, and the Amiga 1500 and CD32 were actually released in the UK first and never had a US release at all.

by the mid 80s all the best software was being made in Europe, it was released in Europe first, and a lot of the time UK and German companies couldn't afford to export to the US at all

by the late 80s Commodore International was run by complete and utter retards that had no idea what they were doing, they were like a ball and chain that Commodore UK and Commodore Germany had to drag with them everywhere they went, and even though those companies were still successful it got to the stage where they could no longer carry the US branch and they themselves were forced to close

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Originally Posted by gamevet

:lol:

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/sales.html

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Do you really think a difference of 100,000 is something to write home about? I was writing from what I remember reading ages, and not only that but there are two lots of sales numbers on the list you posted, one of which says 600,000 for the US anyway.

I'd also like to say that a second ago you was belittling the sales of 5.5 million units and now you're making a big deal out of a difference of 100,000.

I'm getting bored with this discussion so I'm probably not going to bother posting again, I know when someone is not listening to anything I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by jesus.arnold

You are the one who made the ridiculous statement saying that Konami started their US branch due to the fact that they were obviously interested in bringing Super C to the Amiga not me.

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I didn't say that though. I said they were interested in getting into the very active N. American computer market. I provided a link that showed they had established a U.S. branch in 1982, when the home computer market was really taking off.

The arcade craze pretty much died in 1983 (when the console market crashed) and arcade companies like Atari, Konami, Sega and Capcom brought their arcade games to multiple computer formats. I stated that Konami of America ported the Amiga version of Super C, and you decided that I was saying Konami opened a N. American branch just to make Super C for that computer.

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Nobody has said that those games were developed by Konami, Unless of course you're using Mobygames like some kind of amateur not realising that half the time whichever member of the public who writes the info usually just copies it for all the different ports.

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I provided a different link, that shows who developed and published those Konami games. You and I should have clearly seen who did what, from that link.

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I have absolutely no idea how much interest the Japanese had with the Atari 2600, and seeing as this discussion has nothing to do with the system I don't see what bearing this point has on anything.

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It has bearing though. You scoffed at the idea that Konami would open a N. American branch, with the idea of making games for the computer market. Yes, arcade distribution was part of it, but that was a very small piece of the pie, in comparison to what they could make from console and computer software. Sega saw the opportunity with the 2600 and ran with it. Do you honestly believe that no other Japanese company saw that opportunity?

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Ocean were known for making games with the highest production values and best programming, until the early to mid ninetees when they became a pile of turd that released anything for a quick buck.

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You still took the opportunity to point out that Ocean published 90 games on the Amiga, while EA only did around 32. Does that make the worth of those EA games less?

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No that was never the point, you made it the point after I said that there were few US companies backing the Amiga, I never said anything about the US software being bad, or unimportant, I just said there wasn't much of it.

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And I'm saying there was more than you give N. America credit for. I listed 6-8 of the key developers/publishers and you proceeded to point out the biggest and best developers/publishers in Europe. Yes, Europe got a ton more software than N. America, but it's foolish to think that we didn't get a lot of great software here either. I didn't list companies like Readysoft, yet games like Dragon's Lair and Space Ace were big hits.

We didn't start seeing most of the European software until the early 90's, when the N. American developers started moving on to the more robust PC market. Still, having as much support as we did get from N. America was amazing, considering how small the market was.

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Yeah because people should move onto the next biggest thing whether there's still good software coming out or not, why exactly are you on a retro gaming forum?

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I have no problem with continued support for older hardware; I just don't look at that software as if it's the latest and greatest, when much better stuff was being released elsewhere.

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Oh yeah and enlighten me, when exactly did North America pull the plug on the NES?

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About 2 years after the SNES came out.

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I didn't say that the Amiga took the gaming market in Europe, I said it was successful in that market, I was just trying to put into perspective that there would be little of the gaming market left over in North America when you take into consideration the NES' sales penetration.

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The NES had very little to do with the Amiga though. The PC market had caught up, and passed the Amiga with better hardware and software. Doom and Wing Commander were the defining software in the computer arena and the Amiga had nothing to counter it, though Europe's Epic was a valiant effort.

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The only amazing US C64 games I can think of were Impossible Mission and the Lucas Arts games, for the most part US C64 games looked like they belonged on an Atari 2600 and if you want a list then just look at the Lemon64 one and you'll find a lot of European games even though the site is US centric.

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What exactly were you playing?

Did you not play:

Archon
Seven Cities of Gold
The Bard's Tale series
M.U.L.E
Summer Games
Jumpman Series
Miner 2049'er
Boulder Dash
Beach Head 1 & 2
Raid Over Moscow
PSI 5 Trading Outpost
Heart of Africa
Pirates!
Atarisoft arcade ports
Pitstop
One on One: Dr. J vs. Larry Bird
Raid over Bungling Bay
Karateka
Ultima series
Deja Vu
Star Flight
Battle Chess
Space Quest
Castle Wolfenstein
Loadrunner

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Where the Amiga models are concerned there was never a very pronounced difference in release dates, and the Amiga 1500 and CD32 were actually released in the UK first and never had a US release at all.

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CD32 was released in N. America and it was a joke. The software got panned by critics and the hardware was pretty dated.

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by the mid 80s all the best software was being made in Europe, it was released in Europe first, and a lot of the time UK and German companies couldn't afford to export to the US at all

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This is exactly what I was talking about. You're assuming that we weren't getting solid titles by N. American developers, when it was quite the opposite.

We would receive software that N. American publishers found worthy of bringing over from Europe. Games like Out of this World, Shadow of the Beast and Lemmings were highly praised, while games like Hook fell to the wayside. Accolade's Test Drive was an early title and well received in N. America.

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by the late 80s Commodore International was run by complete and utter retards that had no idea what they were doing, they were like a ball and chain that Commodore UK and Commodore Germany had to drag with them everywhere they went, and even though those companies were still successful it got to the stage where they could no longer carry the US branch and they themselves were forced to close

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How long did you expect Commodore to remain profitable, when they only sold 6 million units worldwide? They weren't making profits from software sold, and competing hardware was starting to out-perform the best that Amiga had to offer. The Amiga 500 and 500+ were the only real sellers for the company, while the higher priced Amiga 2000 thru 4000 weren't making any headway. It was pretty evident that the 500 series was being out-matched by the consoles and the PC.

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Do you really think a difference of 100,000 is something to write home about? I was writing from what I remember reading ages, and not only that but there are two lots of sales numbers on the list you posted, one of which says 600,000 for the US anyway.

I'd also like to say that a second ago you was belittling the sales of 5.5 million units and now you're making a big deal out of a difference of 100,000.

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You put it at between 500,000 and 600,000. Still, it's half of what the UK sold. *See below.

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Originally Posted by Jesus.Arnold

The thing that you have to take into account is that the Amiga was never a very succesful machine in North America, it's lifetime sales there were well under half of it's lifetime sales in the UK (a country much smaller with a hell of a lot less people) unless the US companies were exporting to Europe it probably wasn't a good idea to focus on a machine with such a small user base.

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I'm getting bored with this discussion so I'm probably not going to bother posting again, I know when someone is not listening to anything I'm saying.

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I'd say that comment goes both ways.

What the hell is going on in here?

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Originally Posted by gamevet

It has bearing though. You scoffed at the idea that Konami would open a N. American branch, with the idea of making games for the computer market.

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Didn't make any computer games as was already shown, they only distributed games

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Originally Posted by gamevet

You still took the opportunity to point out that Ocean published 90 games on the Amiga, while EA only did around 32. Does that make the worth of those EA games less?

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Ocean's Amiga output was solid, it was their Mega Drive and SNES output that was lacking.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

About 2 years after the SNES came out.

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So lets say about six years after the hardware had become obsolete then.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

The NES had very little to do with the Amiga though. The PC market had caught up, and passed the Amiga with better hardware and software. Doom and Wing Commander were the defining software in the computer arena and the Amiga had nothing to counter it, though Europe's Epic was a valiant effort.

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I don't know how to explain this, I keep trying but failing :(

You are separating the console and computer markets, for you it's strange that an obsolete computer can carry on being successful whist at the same time you don't find it strange that the NES carried on for ages and ages after it's sell by date, in the UK, and probably much of Europe computers were in the place of games machines, they were sold and marketed as games machines, they had specific bundles with a popular game of the time included like games machines,

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/bundles/batmanpack2.jpg

Amiga's weren't just owned by computer nerds they were owned by average gaming fans, the same market that the NES dominated in the US. On top of this they were also successful as business computers and had the computer nerd market.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

What exactly were you playing?

Did you not play:

Archon, Seven Cities of Gold, The Bard's Tale series, M.U.L.E, Summer Games, Jumpman Series, Miner 2049'er, Boulder Dash, Beach Head 1 & 2, Raid Over Moscow, PSI 5 Trading Outpost, Heart of Africa, Pirates!, Atarisoft arcade ports, Pitstop, One on One: Dr. J vs. Larry Bird, Raid over Bungling Bay, Karateka, Ultima series, Deja Vu, Star Flight, Battle Chess, Space Quest,
Castle Wolfenstein, Loadrunner

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Dude, I hate to say this but many of those games were relegated to my "box of crap" a box that I chucked games into that I thought were awful, many of which I only later found out were thought of as classics, the problem is that those games were probably brilliant when they came out but quickly started to look crude and outdated (jumpman, Load Runner, Miner 2049er)

I think that where the C64 was concerned the US definately had the best proper RPG's produced though (Maniac Mansion, Zac Mckraken, Pirates, Ultima series, Starflight)

The thing is that I was never much of fan of those styles of games when I was younger anyway.

My favourite C64 games were - Turrican 1 and 2, Mayhem in Monsterland, Last Ninja 2, Creatures 1 and 2, Armalyte, Dizzy series, Cabal (UK Version), Katakis, CJ Elephant Series, Head Over Heels, Midnight Resistance, Newzealand Story, Rainbow Islands, X-Out, Wizball, Nobby the Aardvark, Salamander, Rodland, Laser Squad, Paradroid, Great Giana Sisters, Enforcer - Fullmetal Megablaster, Flimbos Quest, Spherical, Rick Dangerous, Gemini Wing, Kickstart 2, Saint Dragon there's just so many games that I love

Oh yeah and here's a link to ZZap magazine's "All Time Top 100 C64 games" a retrospective they did at the end of the publication's lifespan

http://www.zzap64.co.uk/cgi-bin/disp...&magazine=zzap

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Originally Posted by gamevet

CD32 was released in N. America and it was a joke. The software got panned by critics and the hardware was pretty dated.

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There was an extremely limited release in Canada and that was it for North America, I doubt that many critics got there hands on much software to pan, and anyway the releases for it were pretty much just Amiga 1200 games on CD, the biggest criticism was that the console was just a repackaged 1200, other than that it was successful sales wise in the UK but had to be taken off the shelves because Commodore International had lost so much money that they had to close.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

How long did you expect Commodore to remain profitable, when they only sold 6 million units worldwide? They weren't making profits from software sold, and competing hardware was starting to out-perform the best that Amiga had to offer. The Amiga 500 and 500+ were the only real sellers for the company, while the higher priced Amiga 2000 thru 4000 weren't making any headway. It was pretty evident that the 500 series was being out-matched by the consoles and the PC.

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The Amiga 500 and 1200 were by far their biggest successes, the CD32 was doing well (probably better that it deserved to) for the short time it was out, and both Commodore UK and Germany were making money, Commodore International however were losing money and heavily in debt. I agree that Commodore would've had to of released some new hardware within a year to keep up though.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

You put it at between 500,000 and 600,000. Still, it's half of what the UK sold.

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Do you know the difference in size between the UK and the entirety of North America?!!?!?

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Originally Posted by TheEdge

What the hell is going on in here?

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Gamevet didn't like me saying that the Mega Drive was the first games machine with an international software library, and also I think he's in denial too :)

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Originally Posted by jesus.arnold

Gamevet didn't like me saying that the Mega Drive was the first games machine with an international software library, and also I think he's in denial too :)

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I didn't agree with your assessment that Japan had no interest in western computers. It was limited, but there were several companies that did take a stab at it.

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Originally Posted by jesus.arnold

Didn't make any computer games as was already shown, they only distributed games

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Spin it as you may, when I've clearly shown that Konami had a N. American branch, had an American team port Super C to the Amiga and several other titles on the C-64.

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So lets say about six years after the hardware had become obsolete then.

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I guess that depends on how you look at it. The Amiga came out the same year.

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You are separating the console and computer markets, for you it's strange that an obsolete computer can carry on being successful whist at the same time you don't find it strange that the NES carried on for ages and ages after it's sell by date, in the UK, and probably much of Europe computers were in the place of games machines, they were sold and marketed as games machines, they had specific bundles with a popular game of the time included like games machines,

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No, I'm more amazed with how much shovelware was being released over there, and that more companies didn't go out of business. Especially considering that the userbase was spread out over 20 something countries.

Nintendo's limited distribution of the NES was more than likely the reason it wasn't that big of a deal there, while the Sega Master System had more succeess because Sega had the channels in place.

I'd guess that since Europe seems to hold onto hardware for far longer than any other region, that they get most of the newest hardware last.

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/bundles/batmanpack2.jpg

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Amiga's weren't just owned by computer nerds they were owned by average gaming fans, the same market that the NES dominated in the US. On top of this they were also successful as business computers and had the computer nerd market.

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It wasn't much different here though. I really can't think of many business titles being released for the Amiga beyond Video Toaster, Paint and a few word processor programs. The small userbase was game centric and a good portion of it came from former C-64 owners.

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Dude, I hate to say this but many of those games were relegated to my "box of crap" a box that I chucked games into that I thought were awful, many of which I only later found out were thought of as classics, the problem is that those games were probably brilliant when they came out but quickly started to look crude and outdated (jumpman, Load Runner, Miner 2049er)

I think that where the C64 was concerned the US definately had the best proper RPG's produced though (Maniac Mansion, Zac Mckraken, Pirates, Ultima series, Starflight)

The thing is that I was never much of fan of those styles of games when I was younger anyway.

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I don't know. These were the games that sold people on the C-64 over here.

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My favourite C64 games were - Turrican 1 and 2, Mayhem in Monsterland, Last Ninja 2, Creatures 1 and 2, Armalyte, Dizzy series, Cabal (UK Version), Katakis, CJ Elephant Series, Head Over Heels, Midnight Resistance, Newzealand Story, Rainbow Islands, X-Out, Wizball, Nobby the Aardvark, Salamander, Rodland, Laser Squad, Paradroid, Great Giana Sisters, Enforcer - Fullmetal Megablaster, Flimbos Quest, Spherical, Rick Dangerous, Gemini Wing, Kickstart 2, Saint Dragon there's just so many games that I love

Oh yeah and here's a link to ZZap magazine's "All Time Top 100 C64 games" a retrospective they did at the end of the publication's lifespan

http://www.zzap64.co.uk/cgi-bin/disp...&magazine=zzap

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This list looks pretty slanted towards European games. I've played a good portion of those and really didn't find anything unique about the gameplay. Just the fact that Racing Destruction Set didn't make that list, is reason enough for me to say WTF!?

Yeah it's tough going back to a game like Jumpman now, but Archon will always be near the top of my list; How it didn't make it onto that top 100 list is inexcusable, especially when a game like Gauntlet(horrible port) is considered better.

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There was an extremely limited release in Canada and that was it for North America, I doubt that many critics got there hands on much software to pan, and anyway the releases for it were pretty much just Amiga 1200 games on CD, the biggest criticism was that the console was just a repackaged 1200, other than that it was successful sales wise in the UK but had to be taken off the shelves because Commodore International had lost so much money that they had to close.

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Somebody told you wrong. It was released here, and I'd seen it in a couple of the Amiga stores in Dallas. Next Generation magazine had several reviews for the games (Sega CD and Turbo CD blew those out of the water) on the CD32 and they bombed. The system was overpriced, outdated and outmatched.

*Edit*

I guess it was an import. I have read reviews for it in Next Gen though, and that would be pretty rare, considering that they really didn't cover imports much.

http://www.gamesniped.com/2008/08/12...ancity-direct/

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Originally Posted by gamesniped

When this date passed, a federal judge ordered an injunction against Commodore preventing them from importing anything into the United States. Commodore had built up CD32 inventory in their Philippine manufacturing facility for the United States launch, but, being unable to sell the consoles, they remained in the Philippines until the debts owed to the owners of the facility were settled. Commodore declared bankruptcy shortly afterwards, and the CD32 was never officially sold in the United States.

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It's quite possible I had seen the CDTV instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_CDTV

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Do you know the difference in size between the UK and the entirety of North America?!!?!?

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I'm not the one that made claims that N. America didn't even sell half of what the United Kingdom did. One question though: Did your country start out with the Amiga 1000?

I'm pretty sure the overpriced Amiga 1000, really killed the idea of buying an Amiga in N. America. I had to wait until the less expensive 500 came around, and I still couldn't afford one until 1989.