Knuckles Chaotix...Chaotix

Knuckles Chaotix is being an asshole.

At first, the intro would play fine and the title screen would come up with graphical garbage in the background but fine in the foreground (though the text was usually garbled to some extent), then the save screen would be garbled, and then it would basically freeze, sometimes making it sort of to the segway to gameplay (when knuckles spins in).

Then, I cleaned the pins on the bottom of the 32X and emery board sanded the game and the pin connector in the 32X and the best I can do is perfect title screen and save menu and then freezes right as its going into gameplay (background loads and everything comes up and then BAM freeze).

I opened up the game and it looks perfect, no corrosion anywhere I can see. The 32X plays every other game I have (Metal Head, Tempo, Star Wars Arcade, Shadow Squadron, Doom) with no problems. Does Knuckles Chaotix use a different feature that no other 32X game listed uses? There are so many possibilities I really don't know where to begin, but I've narrowed it down to this list of most likely candidates:

1. The pin connector in the model 2 Genesis

2. The cartridge edge on the 32X (bottom)

3. The pin connector in the 32X (where the game goes)

4. The ribbon cables inside the 32X (which seem to be straight and secure, but you never know. Also, one has more of the pins exposed than the other, is that normal? by that I mean its like just the tops of the pins on one ribbon cable and about a 1/2~1 cm showing on the other)

5. The game itself

With so many passthroughs its hard to tell where the problem is coming from, and just because other 32X games work doesn't mean it can't be the pins that other games don't use causing the problem. Also, I need to know if its the game or the 32X so I know which one needs to be replaced. I figure its actually probably cheaper for a cord free 32X than another copy of Chaotix, but either way I want to be sure before I go buy another of either one.

Help me TmEE-wan Kenobi, you're my only hope...unless someone knows Steve Snake and would like to give him a heads up for me.

edit: oh, I guess I should also mention that the sound test menu works fine and the sound plays even after the game freezes, if that makes any difference.

Also, would Shadow Squadron, Doom, or Star Wars Arcade work as donor carts if all else fails? I have duplicates of SS, Doom, and SWA that came with Knuckles Chaotix in a lot (I already have those 3 CIB) and I would be happy to either swap the chips or snag capacitors if that would fix the game seeing as SS, Doom, and SWA aren't even worth eBaying. Just an FYI, my prefered order of scrapping is Doom, SWA, SS because I think Shadow Squadron is the rarest and also my personal favorite of the bunch (and the one my 32X playing friend doesn't have yet to my knowledge), so if Doom will cut the mustard I would prefer to butcher it since its almost completely worthless.

What's your setup like?

genesis with 32X alone? Or genesis with 32X/Sega CD ?

If it's the Genesis/32X alone, do you have this installed in your genesis (it attaches to the side expansion port where the SCD normally attaches):

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/2915/002hk0.th.jpghttp://img354.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif




I've noticed that if this little doohickey which came with the 32X originally is not installed on a stand alone Genesis, funny things have happened (just anecdotal, not a scientific fact).

Otherwise, i've noticed if you have the Sega CD attached, be sure all three are plugged in when you play a 32X cart, I've had weird things happen if all three are not plugged in.

never seen one of those, ever. Right now its just the 32X and the Genesis 2, I have the Sega CD hooked up to the high definition model 1. Either way, I don't think that's it, I'm convinced its a hookup problem somewhere, its just a matter of game vs. system. Also, if other games work fine without it, I can't see why it would only be knuckles chaotix that suffers from that attachment not being there.

I'm just saying I've had similar freeze issues when said connections didn't exist. Seriously, just give it a shot, try hooking your 32X up to your Genesis/Sega CD setup and plug all three in. It MIGHT work, if it doesn't, did you lose anything beside 10 minutes?

Strangely enough, the 32X came with two sets of instructions, one in glossy white and another in orange. The glossy white instructions include directions on how to install the 32X into the CDX and even have a description of a special spacer exclusively for the CDX. These instructions do not mention the side attachment I have pictured. HOWEVER, the orange supplemental which claims the 32X will not work with the CDX has the side attachment I have pictured and recommends it be installed on a stand alone Genesis.

^ Nice DMC DeLorean!

Yeah I saw a web site showing that side port terminator thing (or whatever you wish to call it) and it said it came with the 32X and you needed to use it if you didn't have a SCD to prevent some glitches! I've never actually seen one before either! I wonder if it's only needed for first gen M1's or something? You know a certain mainboard or only the early 32X systems needed them?

I have vowed that I will own a drivable one as soon as I can afford it...I really love those cramped two seaters...It will complement my Datsun...which needs a full restoration...

32X is a mean bastard, and I can always blame the ribbons and their connectors... I did this to my 32X's ribbons : split them, and put a piece of paper between them and press them back in... needs a lot of force but you can be sure that the ribbons won't cause you headache anymore :)
Also there's a slim chance that the game has some bit-rot happening in the ROM, you could dump the cart if you have a MCD and Mask of Destiny's Sega CD transfer suite cable and utils to rule this one out.

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Originally Posted by TmEE

32X is a mean bastard, and I can always blame the ribbons and their connectors... I did this to my 32X's ribbons : split them, and put a piece of paper between them and press them back in... needs a lot of force but you can be sure that the ribbons won't cause you headache anymore :)
Also there's a slim chance that the game has some bit-rot happening in the ROM, you could dump the cart if you have a MCD and Mask of Destiny's Sega CD transfer suite cable and utils to rule this one out.

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Knuckles Chaotix was mask rom though, wasn't it? To my knowledge only flash ROMs suffer bit rot. Plus, add to that it was a ?95? release and the game save file is still on there from the original owner. I'll try reinserting the ribbon cable and then do the whole Sega CD razmatazz. I just really hope I can get it working because I really don't think the game is to blame.

You opened it? I'm just wondering, is Knuckles Chaotix battery-backedor not (for the saving)?

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

You opened it? I'm just wondering, is Knuckles Chaotix battery-backedor not (for the saving)?

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no, lol, I admire your tenacity though ;)

I believe the saving is done by some sort of RAM chip as that's the only thing I saw besides the 2 main game chips. I'm assuming its the same thing as NBA JAM and the like. For some reason I don't find many Genesis games with save batteries, they all seem to use some other (usually better) method.

Oh, and back at Tanegashima (seriously, wtf does your SN mean?), I was looking around online and I can't find any eBay auctions with that side part or any 32X setup guides that mentioned it. Are you sure its even for the 32X? Where did you get it from? Is its functionality even described anywhere? I'm racking my brain here trying to figure out what it is and how it could possibly affect the 32X's functionality. On the plus side, one 32X "repair guide" claims up and down that any gameplay problems are 100% the ribbon cable's fault and that if it doesn't work after reseating them...reseat them again...and again. I figure it couldn't hurt and seeing as my 32X was rescued from the bottom of a junk heap of non-working games and other crap at a computer repair store (that sells games on the side), I wouldn't be surprised that the ribbon cables might need a little TLC.

http://www.sonic-cult.org/articles/32x/

Have you tried the Sega CD yet?? I mean, wouldn't it be easier to just give the Sega CD a shot before you go through the trouble of resetting the ribbon cables?


I got it with the 32X in a sealed box, it came from Sega, with the 32X. Of course it came with the 32X, the 32X instructions wouldn't tell me to attach it to the Genesis if it did not come with the 32X now would it? I do not have a scanner, but I assure you that this is the case. I will take a photo if it will work soon enough. Most people don't buy 32X systems complete either, and most have no idea this part even exists. But it do.

What does your SN mean?

http://www.trocadero.com/MONTES/item...7862store.html

There, that's what my SN means...


IT is very important to note, however, my 32X which was brand new in box came with two sets of instructions, the originals on white glossy and a supplemental on orange regular paper. The originals contain instructions on how to set up the 32X with the CDX, including pictures of a proposed CDX/32X adapter sleeve. These glossy instructions do not mention this side adapter thingy along with included parts. The supplemental does mention/picture the side thingy and also has a huge warning 32X IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH SEGA CDX!. No doubt, the side thingy was included later after potential bugs showed up on people who had a stand alone genesis. Here is a picture PROVING its existence. You can't read it, but the diagram should at least be proof enough. The instructions say this should be done with a Genesis model I as well.

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/2606/001bk4.th.jpghttp://img224.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif

Wow, I never saw that little extension piece until I found one rotting in my friend's basement a few years ago when I was helping him move. I bought a 32x back when stores were clearancing them, mine has the double instructions but never came with the little extension piece. I occasionally had freezes and other problems, but I also had a Sega CD, so I don't know whether that connector would really have made a difference or not. Nowadays, whenever I haul out a 32x for one reason or another, I never have any issues using a 32x, and I still don't use that extension.

as far as using an emory voard on the contacts- that's kinda bad. Use a pink art eraser on any REALLY dirty contacts, then clean them up with Q-tips and Windex (not alcohol).

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Originally Posted by Tanegashima

Have you tried the Sega CD yet?? I mean, wouldn't it be easier to just give the Sega CD a shot before you go through the trouble of resetting the ribbon cables?


I got it with the 32X in a sealed box, it came from Sega, with the 32X. Of course it came with the 32X, the 32X instructions wouldn't tell me to attach it to the Genesis if it did not come with the 32X now would it? I do not have a scanner, but I assure you that this is the case. I will take a photo if it will work soon enough. Most people don't buy 32X systems complete either, and most have no idea this part even exists. But it do.

What does your SN mean?

http://www.trocadero.com/MONTES/item...7862store.html

There, that's what my SN means...


IT is very important to note, however, my 32X which was brand new in box came with two sets of instructions, the originals on white glossy and a supplemental on orange regular paper. The originals contain instructions on how to set up the 32X with the CDX, including pictures of a proposed CDX/32X adapter sleeve. These glossy instructions do not mention this side adapter thingy along with included parts. The supplemental does mention/picture the side thingy and also has a huge warning 32X IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH SEGA CDX!. No doubt, the side thingy was included later after potential bugs showed up on people who had a stand alone genesis. Here is a picture PROVING its existence. You can't read it, but the diagram should at least be proof enough. The instructions say this should be done with a Genesis model I as well.

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/2606/001bk4.th.jpghttp://img224.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif

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I didn't mean to insult you or anything, I just wanted to know more about it. If possible, could you make a less blurry scan/picture of those instructions? I just want to read exactly what they say to know if it was a bug fix or an FCC BS (seeing as they show the stupid metal plates going in too). My SN means I am "17 days older than nes" meaning "I was born 17 days before the NES was released in the US"

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Originally Posted by AG Wolf

Wow, I never saw that little extension piece until I found one rotting in my friend's basement a few years ago when I was helping him move. I bought a 32x back when stores were clearancing them, mine has the double instructions but never came with the little extension piece. I occasionally had freezes and other problems, but I also had a Sega CD, so I don't know whether that connector would really have made a difference or not. Nowadays, whenever I haul out a 32x for one reason or another, I never have any issues using a 32x, and I still don't use that extension.

as far as using an emory voard on the contacts- that's kinda bad. Use a pink art eraser on any REALLY dirty contacts, then clean them up with Q-tips and Windex (not alcohol).

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So Knuckles Chaotix runs fine for you? All my other games run without incidence, but I think Chaotix uses features that others don't, especially since it was a Sega programmed title, which kind of supports the ribbon cable theory some more. Take Castlevania III for instance, it uses pins only one other game uses and if that pin happens to be the only one corroded, it won't work, and considering the small library of the 32x, it wouldn't surpise me to find that it utilized a relatively unknown function.

As for eraser/windex...no. Erasers get rubber strips everywhere and unless they are brand new still leave smeary residue. Windex has other chemicals that could potentially leave deposits, its meant to make glass pretty, not make contacts electrically conductive. Radio Shack actually sells an electronics cleaner pen that is nothing more than a dry erase marker without the ink...in other words, alcohol in a pen. The emery board is always the last resort, but even my Mechanics of Materials engineering professor supports the use of fine grit sandpaper to fix corroded electronics. Some people say it just makes it worse later on, but i have a copy of Auotmobili Lamborghini for N64 that I had to sand about a year ago and its contacts are still shiny as the day I sanded them. The key to cleaning games is to remove as many foreign materials as possible, not to make it look like jewelry if it means leaving any kind of residue.

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Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

Knuckles Chaotix was mask rom though, wasn't it? To my knowledge only flash ROMs suffer bit rot. Plus, add to that it was a ?95? release and the game save file is still on there from the original owner. I'll try reinserting the ribbon cable and then do the whole Sega CD razmatazz. I just really hope I can get it working because I really don't think the game is to blame.

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Regular mask ROMs can also become corrupt, though its highly unlikely. I have few 20 year old pirate FC carts which have developed some issues that are most definitely related to ROM...

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Originally Posted by TmEE

Regular mask ROMs can also become corrupt, though its highly unlikely. I have few 20 year old pirate FC carts which have developed some issues that are most definitely related to ROM...

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Aren't pirate FC carts usually EEPROM though? That's what it always seems to be when I read technical stuff about them. Mask ROMs seem like they would be too expensive for your average pirate cart maker, especially when they usually can't even make the label out of paper that can withstand a drop of water. Even still, at only ~13 years old and in good overall condition I would hope Knuckles Chaotix isn't suffering from that already. At any rate, if I get a chance today I'll reseat the ribbon cables and if that doesn't work I'll try the Sega CD thing (which, believe it or not, would be a bigger pain than reseating the ribbon cables) and report back on the results.

I had the same problems not long ago: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...light=Knuckles

I solved it all by cleaning and reconnecting all the ribbon cables.

man, I'm trying to disconnect the ribbon cables but they aren't fucking budging. I feel if I pull any harder I'm going to rip the 32X in half, seriously. Mine have the 2 thin ribbon cables but at the tips there is a wedge of plastic, is that on every 32X? The tutorial I was reading says "Gently" pull them up, but yanking them isn't moving them an inch. Is it possible I have an extremely late slightly revised 32X or do I really just need to pull like there is no tomorrow until it gives itself up?

Seems your 32X likes to hold on to its ribbons... I needed nearly no force to get mine out... now you cannot get them out :P

You didn't insult me...

17daysolderthannes...ahha I always thought it was something to do with soldering. I'm a moron.


Since I have windows vista my computer/accessories are not allowed to function at 100%. So therefor my brand new scanner for no particular reason other than the fact that I'm running Vista has decided not to work. When I can get this resolved I would be happy to scan the supplemental, the original instructions and so forth.

Stay posted.

I did not intend any insults, the "now you cannot get them out" was for my own 32X which has its ribbons a bit tweaked so they're really nearly unremovable. 32X has rather poor board, and too much force may end up with a unit that has a socket off the board... and in that case, you have hope, but it requires lot of soldering.

yeah, these fucking cables aren't going anywhere, and that sucks. I really don't know where to go from here as it could be anything. It could be that I don't have the magic happy side car adapter, it could be that the ribbon cables are so corroded that they have welded themselves inside the connectors, it could be that the pin connector inside the 32X has some bad pins, it could be that the game is shit. I don't fuckin know...I guess my only path now is to hand it off to my friend to see if it works on his 32X and if it doesn't I guess it's the game and if it does then its my 32X. Fuck shit bitch ass cock I am pissed off with this bullshit.

For a nominal price, you can buy my 32X...its complete in the box etc.

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Originally Posted by Tanegashima

For a nominal price, you can buy my 32X...its complete in the box etc.

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if I buy another one I'm going to buy a cordless one for pennies off of eBay. Either way, I'm not buying anything until I see how it performs on my friend's 32X. Oh yeah, I tried your Sega CD method, it actually made it worse, so scratch that theory off the list. I took some pics of the game and my 32X, like that will make any difference, but here they are anyway:

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...haotixback.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...aotixfront.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s.../32Xinside.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...blecloseup.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...lecloseup3.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...lecloseup2.jpg

The Ramtron chip in the cart is the save chip, yeah. It's a similar one to the one in Sonic 3, which also uses a Ramtron nvRAM chip.

That's pretty cool, really... makes me wonder which Genesis games exactly use those things. With the EEPROM chips it's not too hard to tell, as standard emulators fail to save with many types of EEPROM, but the Ramtron NVRAM (sometimes called FRAM, though I'm not sure if it technically is) stuff... those do too good a job of looking like SRAM, you can't tell that way. :)

The only Genesis game I knew for sure to use a NVRAM (using that to mean Ramtron-style non-battery-backed FRAM/CMOS-like memory) chip was Sonic 3. I definitely suspected that more did, but without proof...

Oh, I do think some Genesis games are battery backed. Stuff like Phantasy Star II and IV, etc, right?

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Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

Aren't pirate FC carts usually EEPROM though? That's what it always seems to be when I read technical stuff about them. Mask ROMs seem like they would be too expensive for your average pirate cart maker, especially when they usually can't even make the label out of paper that can withstand a drop of water. Even still, at only ~13 years old and in good overall condition I would hope Knuckles Chaotix isn't suffering from that already. At any rate, if I get a chance today I'll reseat the ribbon cables and if that doesn't work I'll try the Sega CD thing (which, believe it or not, would be a bigger pain than reseating the ribbon cables) and report back on the results.

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You mean EPROM, not EEPROM. Very different... but yes, EPROMs have a maybe 25 years max lifespan, unlike masked roms or rewritable chips like EEPROMs or non-battery-backed NVRAM. Offficial cartridges should not have this problem, except maybe for a few pre-Crash titles (evidently there are some official Atari 2600 games with EPROMs? I don't know, I'm not an Atari collector.)

FRAMs have one trick though, when you read a byte, you erase it so you have to write it back.
MD games usually use battery (usually CR2032) + 8K of SRAM. Most MD games with saves I have use battery method, some use 24Cxx EEPROM.

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FRAMs have one trick though, when you read a byte, you erase it so you have to write it back.
MD games usually use battery (usually CR2032) + 8K of SRAM. Most MD games with saves I have use battery method, some use 24Cxx EEPROM.

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That's what I'd expect. I just wondered if anything other than Sonic 3 used an FRAM (or whichever type of NVRAM it technically is), and this proves that yes, Knuckles Chaotix at least also does for sure. So, are there any others? :)

I guess post 1994 games with saves are worth looking at... FRAM being near compatible with SRAM will make the chips indistinguishable from each other in emulators. BTW, I use regular SRAM chip in my pirate Sonic3 cart without problems : http://www.hot.ee/tmeeco/S3PLUSSK.JPG ;)

my friend tried it out on his 32X and apparently it works fine. Shit, well, gotta buy another 32X, anyone got a loose unit that works with Chaotix to sell me cheap?

I'd be interested in your 32X but I'm a little bit broke right now...

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Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

my friend tried it out on his 32X and apparently it works fine. Shit, well, gotta buy another 32X, anyone got a loose unit that works with Chaotix to sell me cheap?

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Yeah... the 1994-1997 Genesis and 32X games with "SRAM" saving that may actually be FRAM are almost all sports games, but there are a few others which I would be interested to know for sure what they use...

Monster World IV is one of the ones I'm most interested in knowing about, given that Wonder Boy in Monster World has EEPROM. Does Monster World IV have EEPROM but the site that went through to find all the EEPROM games missed it (or only looked at US/European titles?), FRAM, or battery? It can save in emulators that don't support all types of EEPROM, but beyond that I don't know.

Other 1994-1997 Genesis/32X stuff with saving from Sega -- many sports games, Shadowrun, Crusader of Centy, Beyond Oasis, the US/European releases of Phantasy Star IV, etc. Most have batteries, I imagine. But do they all?

You could plug your Chaotix cart into a Game Genie and then pull it out - it worked for me..

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Originally Posted by The Jackal

You could plug your Chaotix cart into a Game Genie and then pull it out - it worked for me..

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...tha fuck? what on earth could that possibly do? I think in your case you just had some dirty pins, in my case it is definitely my 32X as it has successfully worked in another 32X no problem.

OH MY GOD! I just bought another 32X AND IT STILL DOESN'T PLAY CHAOTIX!!!!

Just like the first one, the ribbon cables are completely non-removeable. Allegedly the seller tested it with Chaotix, so WTF else can it be? I've confirmed personally that the game plays on someone else's 32X, so all thats left is the connector cable, the A/C adapter (highly unlikely), and the Genesis. Are some model 2 Genesis systems less reliable with the 32X than others? Are model 1 Genesis systems MORE reliable than the model 2s? Does anyone have an extra model 1 adapter for a 32X to sell me so I can try it out at least (btw, I don't have anything but the patch cable, the adapter, and the spacer, do I need anything else besides the cable adapter to use a model 1?)? This is so fucking annoying, I don't want to have to re-buy EVERYTHING just to play one damn game. GRRRRRR

really? nothing?

Well, you can try to do some cartslot pin bending... I did that to my MD2 and my 32X, along with ribbon cable split and jam trick to get things stable... do you have your old 32X left ? if yes, try pulling the ribbons out on it to get an estimate on how strong the 32X can hold on to them...

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Originally Posted by TmEE

Well, you can try to do some cartslot pin bending... I did that to my MD2 and my 32X, along with ribbon cable split and jam trick to get things stable... do you have your old 32X left ? if yes, try pulling the ribbons out on it to get an estimate on how strong the 32X can hold on to them...

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I tried EVERYTHING to get those things out. Pulling those any harder would've broken the circuit board.

hey they fix sonic cart's here
http://www.videogameperfection.com/c...modifications/

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Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

...sometimes making it sort of to the segway to gameplay...

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I think you mean "segue," dumbass. I thought you said you went to school.

...

Hello? 17days?