Nintendo DS & Sony PSP

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Originally Posted by MrMatthews

You forgot to validate your statement by posting the figures that show what age groups these games really appeal to.

Other than MAYBE Nintendogs and the Pokemon games, very few of those games look like they're aimed squarely at kids. I have many of them in my own collection, in fact.

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The mass market is different than the enthusiast market which is a much
smaller group.

If the DS was marketed toward teen and adult gamers, than there would be
more sports, racing, and action games on that sales chart.

This is the case with the platforms that ARE targeted toward the teen and
adult market.

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Overall

Top 10 best selling seventh generation console games. Includes only sales on one console only (i.e. separate sales figures and rankings for Madden NFL on the PS3 and 360).
Wii Sports (30.87 million) (September 2008)[23]
Wii Play (16.15 million) (September 2008)[23]
Mario Kart Wii (9.53 million) (September 2008)[23]
Wii Fit (8.76 million) (September 2008)[23]
Halo 3 (8.1 million) (January 2008)[24]
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (7.47 million) (September 2008)[23]
Super Mario Galaxy (6.1 million) (March 2008)[25]
Mario Party 8 (4.86 million) (March 2008)[25]
Gears of War (4.7 million, may include PC version) (January 2009)[26]
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (4.52 million) (March 2008)[25]
MotorStorm (3.31 million) (December 2007)[27]
Gears of War 2 (4 million) (January 2009)[26]
Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (3.772 million approximately: 3.04 million in US, 78,000 in Canada, 53,501 in Japan)
Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (3.4 million) (March 2008)[28]
Cross-platform
Call of Duty 4 - 10 million[29]
Grand Theft Auto IV - 10 million[30]
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Xbox 360

Top 10 best selling Xbox 360 games
Halo 3 (8.1 million) (January 2008)[31]
Gears of War (4.7 million, may include PC version) (January 2009)[26]
Grand Theft Auto IV (4.074 million approximately: 2.7 million in US, 750,000 in UK, 34,000 in Japan)[32]
Gears of War 2 (4 million) (January 2009)[26]
Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (3.772 million approximately: 3.04 million in US, 78,000 in Canada, 53,501 in Japan)
Call of Duty: World at War (3.35 million) (January 2009)[33]
Forza Motorsport 2 (2.274 million approximately: 2.23 million in US, 31,255 in Japan, 12,600 in Canada)
Marvel: Ultimate Alliance (2.08 million in US) (December 2008)[34]
Guitar Hero II (2 million in North America and Western Europe)
Saints Row (2 million) (June 2008)[35]
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Playstation 3

Top 10 best selling Playstation 3 games
MotorStorm (3.31 million) (December 2007)[36]
Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots (3 million shipped) (August 2008)[37]
Grand Theft Auto IV (2.659 million)
Resistance: Fall of Man (2.5 million) (February 2008)[38]
Grand Theft Auto IV (2.139 million approximately: 1.4 million in US,[186][24] 570,000 in UK,[25] 169,000 in Japan)[187])
Gran Turismo 5 Prologue (2.37 million shipped) (June 2008)[39]
Uncharted: Drake's Fortune (1.2 million) (December 2008)[40]
Heavenly Sword (1 million) (May 2008)[41]
MotorStorm: Pacific Rift (1 million) (December 2008)[42]
Ratchet & Clank Future: Tools of Destruction (1 million) (March 2008)[43]
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Wii

Top 10 best selling Wii games
Wii Sports (30.87 million) (September 2008)[23]
Wii Play (16.15 million) (September 2008)[23]
Mario Kart Wii (9.53 million) (September 2008)[23]
Wii Fit (8.76 million) (September 2008)[23]
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (7.47 million) (September 2008)[23]
Super Mario Galaxy (6.1 million) (March 2008)[25]
Mario Party 8 (4.86 million) (March 2008)[25]
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (4.52 million) (March 2008)[25]
Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (3.4 million) (March 2008)[28]
Link's Crossbow Training (2.75 million) (September 2008)[23]
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Handhelds
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Nintendo DS

Top 10 best selling DS games
Nintendogs (18.67 million)
Pokémon Diamond and Pearl (14.77 million)
New Super Mario Bros. (14.16 million)
Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day! (12.98 million)
Brain Age 2: More Training in Minutes a Day! (10.83 million)
Mario Kart DS (10.45 million)
Animal Crossing: Wild World (9.53 million)
Super Mario 64 DS (6.12 million)
Big Brain Academy (5.01 million)
The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass (4.13 million)


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PSP

Top 10 best selling PSP games
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories (4.5 million, may include PlayStation 2 version)
Daxter (2.3 million)
Monster Hunter Freedom 2 (2.15 million)
Monster Hunter Portable 2nd G (2.142 million in Japan)
Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories (1.956 million approximately: 1.83 million in US, 125,507 in Japan)
Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (1.25 million approximately: 800,000 in Japan, 450,000 in North America)
Monster Hunter Freedom (1.15 million)
Need for Speed Most Wanted 5-1-0 (1.047 million approximately: 1.02 million in US, 27,151 in Japan)
Hot Shots Golf: Open Tee (1 million)
Tekken: Dark Resurrection (1 million)

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I see your point, but one thing those numbers don't show is that systems like the PS3 and 360 don't offer a multitude of games that AREN'T geared towards older gamers. If most of the games that come out for those systems are "hardcore" games, then of course those games are going to be the top sellers.

Let's continue this conversation after GTA has been out for a few months. If GTA doesn't land in the Top 10, then I will concede to your point (though it won't change the fact that the DS is probably my favorite system of all time)

I try to think subjectively when it comes to game systems.

I didn't see any reason to get angry with a company who makes a statement based
on the data presented to them from their market reserch.

I don't think anyone was getting angry about that article. What I took from it, however, is that Sony somehow believes that GTA is more or less a playstation license, and seemed to have their noses bent out of joint that Rockstar would make an entry to the series that was exclusive to a Nintendo system. They didn't seem to appreciate that Rockstar has already given them two games for the PSP (both of which are top sellers, I saw).

Angry? No. But I was making fun of them a bit.

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Originally Posted by war2thegrave

I didn't see any reason to get angry with a company who makes a statement based
on the data presented to them from their market reserch.

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Is it really based on market research, or is it a pr guy marketing the PSP as the only handheld option for "mature" gamers? It's a little insulting, but I don't think anyone is particularly angry.

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Originally Posted by InternalPrimate

Is it really based on market research, or is it a pr guy marketing the PSP as the only handheld option for "mature" gamers? It's a little insulting

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I really didn't see anything that blatent in that artical.
It's just looks like a bunch of randomly placed selective quotes designed
to raise the hackles of the nintendo fanatics.

I don't think that I could ever get insulted by anything that any corporation
says. Brand loyalty only sets people up for disapointment.

What I see from the move is Rockstar is desperate for cash. They looked at the numbers - the user base of the DS and the sales of games - and decided it was the best way to make a hunk of cash fast, damn the game itself. GTA on a DS will be like on a PS1... only suckier. Less power, less storage, less graphics... but you DO have a touchscreen! :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

What I see from the move is Rockstar is desperate for cash. They looked at the numbers - the user base of the DS and the sales of games - and decided it was the best way to make a hunk of cash fast, damn the game itself. GTA on a DS will be like on a PS1... only suckier. Less power, less storage, less graphics... but you DO have a touchscreen! :rofl:

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*Shrugs and goes to pre-order GTA: Chinatown Wars*

Different strokes for different folks I guess :D

I have to laugh at the situation: DS haters bash the system for not having any "hardcore" games, but as soon as THE quintessential hardcore series arrives on the system (not as a port, mind you, but an original game built from the ground up for the DS with about two year's development time), and it's "oh, that game's gonna SUCK!"

Different strokes, indeed.

Desperate for cash? Rockstar?

*scrolls up and reads through the best-selling lists for the PSP and 360 again and wonders vaguely about the PS2*

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Originally Posted by MrMatthews

I have to laugh at the situation: DS haters bash the system for not having any "hardcore" games, but as soon as THE quintessential hardcore series arrives on the system (not as a port, mind you, but an original game built from the ground up for the DS with about two year's development time), and it's "oh, that game's gonna SUCK!"

Different strokes, indeed.

Desperate for cash? Rockstar?

*scrolls up and reads through the best-selling lists for the PSP and 360 again and wonders vaguely about the PS2*

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First, Rockstar has been and continues to be embroiled in lawsuits over their games. Given that and the amount of advertising they do nationally, I'll bet their bottom line isn't as flush as you seem to think. Not to mention, a few best sellers have to cover a multitude of bombs.

Second, I don't hate the DS - I just think it's an odd platform for GTA. The DS isn't really meant for that kind of game. In fact, many people thought it was too much for the PSP, much less the DS. Add in the fact that they'll have to gut the game of any serious length to fit in a cart and it puzzles you even more that they'd bother. At least the PSP UMD holds 1.8 GB. What's the biggest DS cart there is??

Third, look at the majority of DS owners - 10 year-old kids. They're just asking for another lawsuit targeting that market with a GTA game. Oh, they'll say they're targeting ADULTS who own a DS, but seriously - that's what? 1% of DS owners? Who are they trying to kid - they're going after the younger market so they'll be buying the FULL version GTA games for the 360/PS3 in another four or five years.

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

First, Rockstar has been and continues to be embroiled in lawsuits over their games. Given that and the amount of advertising they do nationally, I'll bet their bottom line isn't as flush as you seem to think. Not to mention, a few best sellers have to cover a multitude of bombs.

Second, I don't hate the DS - I just think it's an odd platform for GTA. The DS isn't really meant for that kind of game. In fact, many people thought it was too much for the PSP, much less the DS. Add in the fact that they'll have to gut the game of any serious length to fit in a cart and it puzzles you even more that they'd bother. At least the PSP UMD holds 1.8 GB. What's the biggest DS cart there is??

Third, look at the majority of DS owners - 10 year-old kids. They're just asking for another lawsuit targeting that market with a GTA game. Oh, they'll say they're targeting ADULTS who own a DS, but seriously - that's what? 1% of DS owners? Who are they trying to kid - they're going after the younger market so they'll be buying the FULL version GTA games for the 360/PS3 in another four or five years.

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Do you have any statistics on the ages of DS owners? I'm actually pretty interested in the real numbers. I'm willing to bet that the average is a lot higher than 10. And that the percentage of "ADULTS" (18+?) is waaaaay higher than 1%. Worldwide at least. You have to understand, every single person in Japan owns at least three DS Lites :p

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

First, Rockstar has been and continues to be embroiled in lawsuits over their games. Given that and the amount of advertising they do nationally, I'll bet their bottom line isn't as flush as you seem to think. Not to mention, a few best sellers have to cover a multitude of bombs.

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Law suits = good publicity.

Rhetorical question: how many more copies of San Andreas were sold after the "hot coffee" incident, I wonder?

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

Second, I don't hate the DS - I just think it's an odd platform for GTA. The DS isn't really meant for that kind of game. In fact, many people thought it was too much for the PSP, much less the DS. Add in the fact that they'll have to gut the game of any serious length to fit in a cart and it puzzles you even more that they'd bother. At least the PSP UMD holds 1.8 GB. What's the biggest DS cart there is??

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Up to 256MB, although apparently a game called ASH: Archaic Sealed Heat used a 2GB card.

However, what is your definition of "gutting" a game? We already know that there aren't any animated cutscenes - just static comic book-styled images to progress the story. Also, while the game IS 3D (the city, at least - the cars and characters are faux-3D sprites), the camera has been pulled back to a near-overhead view, which admittedly frees up space which would otherwise have been used for draw-distance and whatnot. I doubt very seriously any wardrobe customization will be used, and I would be surprised if any full songs make it into the game.

Rockstar Leeds say they pretty much used the same city from GTA IV, minus an island, so there's little doubt that the game is still going to be quite large. As far as length, even the GBA game had 300 missions, so I bet Chinatown Wars will have at least as many.

And besides, why all the doubt as to what the system can actually handle? How many developers have pushed a given system's limitations to beyond what people thought they were capable of?

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

Third, look at the majority of DS owners - 10 year-old kids. They're just asking for another lawsuit targeting that market with a GTA game. Oh, they'll say they're targeting ADULTS who own a DS, but seriously - that's what? 1% of DS owners? Who are they trying to kid - they're going after the younger market so they'll be buying the FULL version GTA games for the 360/PS3 in another four or five years.

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Well, that's another argument entirely. I find the idea that Rockstar is secretly marketing this game for kids rather laughable, but this game is getting an M rating, so it's up to the parents to decide whether they'll allow their kids to play it. Given the press surrounding the series, I bet many parents have vetoed it already.

Oh, and only 1% of DS owners are over 18? Doubtful.

It's more accurate to wonder what percentage of DS-owning adults are playing games other than Brain Age? I'd conservatively put the "hardcore" DS audience at around 20%. And with over 30 million units sold in the US by the end of 2008, I'd assume that the final sales figures for GTA will rival those of the Phantom Hourglass.

But like I said earlier: we'll see. Rockstar could very well be barking up the wrong tree by releasing this game on the DS. Either that, or the game will be very successful and more developers will bring mature licenses to the system.

There's alway's these two.
http://pocketmedia.ign.com/pocket/im...oxart_160w.jpg

http://pocketmedia.ign.com/pocket/im...oxart_160w.jpg

Well, I won't speculate as to Rockstar's motives more than I have. It's hard to tell what game companies are thinking, even AFTER the fact. :lawl:

As to percentage of 18+ folk playing a DS... I don't know (in real life) a single person over 15 who will admit to even owning one. Every DS I've seen purchased in a store was immediately passed to a 7-10 year-old kid. I do know a couple people online who are SUPPOSEDLY over 18 who claim to play a DS, but they're heavily outnumbered by the ones who don't.

I would love to see hard figures, but don't give me sales as the ones I've seen are passed to kids (as I said above). Surveys are better, but people will lie one way or the other based on how they think using a DS will be perceived. As said above, the only HARD figure I have is in real life, I've seen ZERO adults using a DS.

I think getting accurate information on what age groups are using the DS is pretty much impossible. I bet that only a small number of people that own ANY console are going to complete consumer surveys.

Just out of curiousity, do you work in a game store?