Sega-16 Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by j_factor

Here's the thing that always gets left out. Those people getting "kicked off of their plans"? They're still able to get insurance. That was not necessarily true before. Therefore I think it's misleading how everyone keeps saying people are getting "kicked off". You're not kicked off your insurance, it's just that the exact policy you're on is no longer offered, so you have to get a different one. That still happened all the time pre-ACA. Some years ago Blue Shield did that to me. When Obama said "if you like your plan, you can keep it," he was referring to a grandfather clause in the ACA. If you were on your plan pre-ACA, the mandates don't kick in against it. But the government can't force the insurance company to keep selling it to you.

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The problem arises when individuals are not able to afford the coverage being offered to them even though the word "affordable" is in the name of the law. Need I remind you our federal government is the very entity that tends to screw up just about everything it touches and now it wants to tell you what type of coverage you need? Just as you don't know what meets my needs and I don't know what meets yours, the government is not in a position to tell others what they need.

Many people were completely satisfied with their coverage yet somehow the government feels the need to tell people it wasn't proper and just. The result is people who can't afford what is now available to them.

Darn Rob Ford! It's all his fault!

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Originally Posted by JCU

The problem arises when individuals are not able to afford the coverage being offered to them even though the word "affordable" is in the name of the law.

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I agree, we should have free health care instead.

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Need I remind you our federal government is the very entity that tends to screw up just about everything it touches and now it wants to tell you what type of coverage you need? Just as you don't know what meets my needs and I don't know what meets yours, the government is not in a position to tell others what they need.

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I'm curious, to what extent do you actually believe in this line of reasoning? As opposed to merely stating it for the convenience of this particular discussion.

I presume you're in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage, as the government is not in a position to tell others what kind of person they need to marry.
We should legalize prostitution too, since the government is not in a position to tell others what they need to do with their bodies.
Should we get rid of the FCC? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need to hear and see on the tv/radio.
Should we legalize all hard drugs and make all medications available without a prescription? The government is not in a position to tell others what kind of drugs they need.
Should we ditch the seat belt requirement, crash test safety standards, and fuel efficiency standards? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need in a vehicle.
Should we eliminate social security? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need to retire.
OSHA? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need for a safe workplace.
Zoning ordinances and building codes? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need to do with their property.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

I agree, we should have free health care instead.

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TANSTAAFL.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

I presume you're in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage, as the government is not in a position to tell others what kind of person they need to marry.
We should legalize prostitution too, since the government is not in a position to tell others what they need to do with their bodies.
Should we get rid of the FCC? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need to hear and see on the tv/radio.
Should we legalize all hard drugs and make all medications available without a prescription? The government is not in a position to tell others what kind of drugs they need.
Should we ditch the seat belt requirement, crash test safety standards, and fuel efficiency standards? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need in a vehicle.
Should we eliminate social security? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need to retire.
OSHA? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need for a safe workplace.
Zoning ordinances and building codes? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need to do with their property.

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I am in favor of all the above. Let private enterprises set their own standards, I say.

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Originally Posted by Cornelius Spunkwater

TANSTAAFL.

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I would never suggest otherwise.

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I am in favor of all the above.

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If that's your opinion, ok, but not many will agree with you.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

If that's your opinion, ok, but not many will agree with you.

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Well, they have that right. But myself personally, I believe the less power the government has, the better off we are.

It must be nice and convenient to base all of your political opinions on one simplistic maxim. Saves you the trouble of any rational inquiry or analysis.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

It must be nice and convenient to base all of your political opinions on one simplistic maxim. Saves you the trouble of any rational inquiry or analysis.

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That's not true. My other maxim is that you shouldn't handle a controller ever again.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

I agree, we should have free health care instead.

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Free huh? It just falls out of the sky for everyone to collect?

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Originally Posted by j_factor

I'm curious, to what extent do you actually believe in this line of reasoning? As opposed to merely stating it for the convenience of this particular discussion.

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For this discussion the government does not know what I need in terms of healthcare. But diving even further, there are far too many aspects of my life in which I can manage much much better than what we see being done by the government.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

I presume you're in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage, as the government is not in a position to tell others what kind of person they need to marry.

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Your presumption would be correct. The government does not need to be in the business of marriage. How it ever became the business of the government is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

We should legalize prostitution too, since the government is not in a position to tell others what they need to do with their bodies.

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Correct. With whom anyone sleeps with and under what conditions is not the concern of anyone besides the parties involved. What happens when you take a chick out on a date and then proceed to have sex with her? That's somehow different than paying someone?

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Originally Posted by j_factor

Should we get rid of the FCC? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need to hear and see on the tv/radio.

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Free choice. Change the channel or turn the dial.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

Should we legalize all hard drugs and make all medications available without a prescription? The government is not in a position to tell others what kind of drugs they need.

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What a person puts into their body is their choice no matter how asinine of a choice it is. As with anything else though, negatively effecting others should have consequences though.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

Should we ditch the seat belt requirement, crash test safety standards, and fuel efficiency standards? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need in a vehicle.

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More consistency would be a start.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

Should we eliminate social security? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need to retire.

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Yes! Even using the most rudimentary definition, Social Security is a ponzi scheme which is illegal...unless done by the gov't. Money is STOLEN from wages under the false idea it will be returned to you when you retire and that is 100% false as S.S. has been ruled a tax by the higher courts and as such, you are not guaranteed to one cent of that which was stolen from you.

I could actually make money with my money. The government can't. The government can't even live by a budget but it wants to manage my money?

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Originally Posted by j_factor

OSHA? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need for a safe workplace.

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That should be between the business owner and the worker and/or customer. Government lovers have this odd idea that people can't control what goes on w/o government intervention which is false. We have such a corrupt entity interjecting its two cents yet it can't even properly maintain our infrastructure where a lot of people work. Most likely I'd support this part of government if, like above, more consistency was shown.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

Zoning ordinances and building codes? The government is not in a position to tell others what they need to do with their property.

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Unless it adversely effects the neighboring property owners, no. For some reason the government believe I should pay (for a permit) before I do work on my property. For some reason it feels I should get its permission before I do much of anything with my property.

Do I have to list all of what the government fails at doing besides which you already mentioned for me?

Not saying we do not need any government involvement but we need as little as possible. Things get worse when such a corrupt entity decides to involve itself in every aspect of our lives as possible. Out government has gotten extremely bloated yet highly ineffective.

You know it's kinda funny, I did an online test once that concluded I was a "Communist Libertarian". Doesn't even make sense does it? Like a complete paradox.

Part of me believes government should just get out of everyone's lives, they're simultaneously incompetent and corrupt and are far more concerned with the welfare of their buddies than the good of their nation. The only skills politicians seem to have are bullshitting and dodging responsibility, diverging attention from their crimes till they are forgotten.
Heck, they're all puppets for external interests anyway, interests that are as opposite to the good of society as can be.

But part of me also believes this capitalist system, which breeds corruption from it's very essence, that rewards the cheaters and the lucky rather than the hardworking, is moronic. That we as a species choose to compete in a silly game, now so detached from from reality, rather than cooperate and propel the entirety of society forward... is proof that we're still nothing but animals.

There are a number of issues with all of that however... the problem is that expecting people to police themselves winds up like the NSA... eventually someone figures out ways they can use something to their advantage, or push the envelope, and then you eventually have a lot of things going on that are "legal" but would never have been allowed to be so previously.

And lets not even get into the complete line of bullshit that is "trickle down" theories. Wealth and power accumulate more wealth and power. If no one was around to slap these people/corporations on the wrist now and again they would NOT be giving out more to the little folks out of the goodness of their heart.

Social security is a mess to be sure. It was a system that wasn't exactly designed well from the start, and it's never been pulled down and turned into something sustainable since then.

"Healthcare" in this country is abysmal unless you are lucky enough to either have the money to not give a crap, or are lucky enough to have a job with a plan that suits your needs.
When you look at other countries that not only provide free/cheap emergency care, but ALSO do the same for preventative care... I don't know how you can look at what the USA has and do anything more than see it as the laughable joke that it is.

Huge segments of the population have no choice but to do nothing but wait for something serious to go wrong... headaches? Oh well too bad. Chest pains and dizziness? Sucks to be you!

Keel over in the middle of the night? ER! and a medical bill they will keep sending you and you will never pay, and no one else will ever pay either!

How is the previous system even remotely acceptable? Is the new system perfect? Not even remotely. Is it even just good? Not really. But SOMETHING needs to be done, and the dogged determination to keep the broken system as is annoys a lot of people.

It's at least a step towards something that needs to happen, even if it's a really ugly stumbling step mired down but a crapload of compromises and extra baggage.

As an 'murrcan myself I am curious to hear people from other countries experience with socialised healthcare, good or bad. As someone who has extreme distrust of both government and big business, I wonder if there can exist some sort of happy medium between universal and private healthcare.

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Originally Posted by Crystalpepsifan

As an 'murrcan myself I am curious to hear people from other countries experience with socialised healthcare, good or bad. As someone who has extreme distrust of both government and big business, I wonder if there can exist some sort of happy medium between universal and private healthcare.

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You have the choice of supporting or using the services from business which don't act in corrupt and unethical ways, right? Can you say the same about government? If anyone is honest they'd admit the government screws them far more than any company unless the individual is living off the government and depending on tax dollars for living.

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Originally Posted by Crystalpepsifan

As an 'murrcan myself I am curious to hear people from other countries experience with socialised healthcare, good or bad. As someone who has extreme distrust of both government and big business, I wonder if there can exist some sort of happy medium between universal and private healthcare.

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Well, most countries with socialised healthcare still have private healthcare. Here in portugal we have socialised healthcare, but only partially (some stuff we gotta pay). Everyone is pro it though, even those that still use private healthcare for the convenience (such as myself from time to time). That safety net, knowing that even if our lives turn to shit we can still be treated without worrying about money, is just too important for us.

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Originally Posted by JCU

You have the choice of supporting or using the services from business which don't act in corrupt and unethical ways, right? Can you say the same about government? If anyone is honest they'd admit the government screws them far more than any company unless the individual is living off the government and depending on tax dollars for living.

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You have this fantasy about businesses... ethical business doesn't really exist, any truly successful business is as corrupt as what you believe the government to be. I has to be that way by necessity, or it can't compete.

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Originally Posted by JCU

You have the choice of supporting or using the services from business which don't act in corrupt and unethical ways, right? Can you say the same about government? If anyone is honest they'd admit the government screws them far more than any company unless the individual is living off the government and depending on tax dollars for living.

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Which segment of big business doesn't act in unethical ways? Just look at the price of food and fuel these days, there not screwing us right? I can just go to the local family owned refinery and gas up my car for next to nothing right? I can raise my own livestock and vegetables in my back yard right? Your hard and fast Libertarianism doesn't work in the real world. I was looking for genuine answers to my questions, not your hardline dicketry. Guess what, fact: you are forced to deal with the government; fact: with the exception of the minute few, you are forced to deal with big business in some fashion.