Wolf32X - finally in beta!

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Originally Posted by mrbigreddog

Is the 32x Video Player based off my suggestion for the DIVX VCD Player thread?!

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No, I've been looking into a 32X video player for YEARS. I actually BOUGHT the MPEG1 specifications (this was back before such things were online for free) just to see what the decoding would entail and if the 32X was capable of actually playing VideoCDs.

I just hadn't put any real work into it until I got Wolf32X out and started on my CD code. At that point, I could see a 32X video player as being possible. Your thread just simply came at a time when my own thoughts on the matter were beginning to look realistic.

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Originally Posted by Chaotix

Wait...does Wolf even have 2 player over dial-up? I never played the PC version... XDD

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It does not.

You should play the PC original, it's one of the best DOS games ever made. :D

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Originally Posted by CMA Death Adder

You should play the PC original, it's one of the best DOS games ever made. :D

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That might be going too far. Doom, Duke 3D, RotT, Quake, Tomb Raider 1 to 3... all of those were all DOS games... and would probably score higher on most folks' list of top games than Wolf3D. ;)

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

That might be going too far. Doom, Duke 3D, RotT, Quake, Tomb Raider 1 to 3... all of those were all DOS games... and would probably score higher on most folks' list of top games than Wolf3D. ;)

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Don't forget Blood, if only for the awesomeness that is the flare gun. :)

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Originally Posted by CMA Death Adder

Don't forget Blood, if only for the awesomeness that is the flare gun. :)

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Ooh, 32-X CD Blood! Now I would be all over that for sure!:daze:

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Originally Posted by CMA Death Adder

Don't forget Blood, if only for the awesomeness that is the flare gun. :)

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That too. :D In other words, there's TONS of DOS games out there that people just don't think about anymore. Lots of great games... and plenty of garbage, too. Sturgeon's Law holds paramount, after all. ;)

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

It CAN handle FWT (Fast Walsh Transform - also called the Hadamard Transform). So my idea is one SH2 is doing the equivalent of MotionJPEG, but with FWT instead of DCT, while the other SH2 does deblocking to make it look better.

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*goes off to read all about it*

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Originally Posted by matteus

*goes off to read all about it*

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Here's a little snippet of code I was using to test the Hadamard transform. Code is sometimes hard to find in it's most basic form - this is as basic as it gets, showing how you do a 1D transform over the data array horizontally, then vertically. If you add up the operations, it does exactly 384 ADDs and SUBs.

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#include <stdio.h>

int data[8][8] = {
    { 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 },
    { 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 },
    { 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 },
    { 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 },
    { 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 },
    { 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 },
    { 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 },
    { 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 }
};

// 1D Hadamard

#define SA8D_1D {\
    const int a0 = SRC(0) + SRC(4);\
    const int a4 = SRC(0) - SRC(4);\
    const int a1 = SRC(1) + SRC(5);\
    const int a5 = SRC(1) - SRC(5);\
    const int a2 = SRC(2) + SRC(6);\
    const int a6 = SRC(2) - SRC(6);\
    const int a3 = SRC(3) + SRC(7);\
    const int a7 = SRC(3) - SRC(7);\
    const int b0 = a0 + a2;\
    const int b2 = a0 - a2;\
    const int b1 = a1 + a3;\
    const int b3 = a1 - a3;\
    const int b4 = a4 + a6;\
    const int b6 = a4 - a6;\
    const int b5 = a5 + a7;\
    const int b7 = a5 - a7;\
    DST(0, b0 + b1);\
    DST(1, b0 - b1);\
    DST(2, b2 + b3);\
    DST(3, b2 - b3);\
    DST(4, b4 + b5);\
    DST(5, b4 - b5);\
    DST(6, b6 + b7);\
    DST(7, b6 - b7);\
}

// 8x8 fast Hadamard test

main ()
{
    int i, j;

// compute forward Hadamard

#define SRC(x)    data[i][x]
#define DST(x,rhs) data[i][x] = (rhs)
    for (i=0; i<8; i++)
        SA8D_1D
#undef SRC
#undef DST

#define SRC(x)    data[x][i]
#define DST(x,rhs) data[x][i] = (rhs)
    for (i=0; i<8; i++)
        SA8D_1D
#undef SRC
#undef DST

    for (i=0; i<8; i++)
        printf ("%d %d %d %d %d %d %d %d\n",
            data[i][0], data[i][1], data[i][2], data[i][3],
            data[i][4], data[i][5], data[i][6], data[i][7]);
    printf ("\n");

// compute inverse Hadamard

#define SRC(x)    data[i][x]
#define DST(x,rhs) data[i][x] = (rhs)
    for (i=0; i<8; i++)
        SA8D_1D
#undef SRC
#undef DST

#define SRC(x)    data[x][i]
#define DST(x,rhs) data[x][i] = (rhs) >> 6
    for (i=0; i<8; i++)
        SA8D_1D
#undef SRC
#undef DST

    for (i=0; i<8; i++)
        printf ("%d %d %d %d %d %d %d %d\n",
            data[i][0], data[i][1], data[i][2], data[i][3],
            data[i][4], data[i][5], data[i][6], data[i][7]);

}

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

No, I've been looking into a 32X video player for YEARS. I actually BOUGHT the MPEG1 specifications (this was back before such things were online for free) just to see what the decoding would entail and if the 32X was capable of actually playing VideoCDs.

I just hadn't put any real work into it until I got Wolf32X out and started on my CD code. At that point, I could see a 32X video player as being possible. Your thread just simply came at a time when my own thoughts on the matter were beginning to look realistic.

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I still feel special! hahaha!!

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Originally Posted by mrbigreddog

I still feel special! hahaha!!

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It's your avatar. :D

I'm sure many people have been thinking about a movie player on the 32X - you just posted the first thread on it here (that I'm aware of). How people think about it will vary by the person - as you've seen, my thoughts have been more program oriented, with special emphasis on the core of the video codec.

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

It's your avatar. :D

I'm sure many people have been thinking about a movie player on the 32X - you just posted the first thread on it here (that I'm aware of). How people think about it will vary by the person - as you've seen, my thoughts have been more program oriented, with special emphasis on the core of the video codec.

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My "dream" is to redo the video for Sewer Sharks - And star in it myself! That would kickass!!

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Originally Posted by mrbigreddog

My "dream" is to redo the video for Sewer Sharks - And star in it myself! That would kickass!!

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Well, it WAS one of the better FMV games to come out. I suppose you already have the helmet? :lol:

Hey now, I absolutely Love Sewer Shark. The game is awesome!

Awsome in a campy way, just like Night Trap (and maybe double switch depending on your prefrence).

Nowhere near the awsome campy humor of Retrun to Zork though (granted a higher quality game in general), which could probably be included in the FMV genre (though technically a graphic adventure with digitized actors and lots of cutscenes, probably closer to FMV than Myst, at least in some ways) Weird to think that it was among the few such games to not initially be released on CD, but rather 12 floppy disks!

Anyway, back on topic.


On the earlier Fm SFX comment, Chilly Willy, why is using a real OPL2 (or compatible) chip necessary? Wouldn't Adlib/SB emulation in DOSBox give high enough sound quality?

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

I've got someone making recordings from the actual chip for me.

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Yoicks! Who on earth would want to sit around making hardware-perfect recordings of Ad Lib sound effects?! Guy'd have to be fjörkin' crazy!

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Wouldn't Adlib/SB emulation in DOSBox give high enough sound quality?

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No. Listening to DOSBox try to emulate the Ad Lib card makes me disgusted.

I prefer DOSbox over real OPLx chip, mainly because real chip sounds so unclean...

Unclean? I dunno, I have a Sound Blaster 16 in one of my old computers and the OPL3 part of it is one of the clearest, cleanest sounds it can make... it definitely blows DOSBox's quality out the window. (Plus, DOSBox doesn't emulate it completely accurately, making some sounds off. Just like a Genesis emulator compared to hardware)

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

Well, it WAS one of the better FMV games to come out. I suppose you already have the helmet? :lol:

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Not yet! And I would have to cut my hair... Maybe I could play ALL the Characters!! "Another Crash and Burn... First time huh rookie?"

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Originally Posted by CMA Death Adder

Yoicks! Who on earth would want to sit around making hardware-perfect recordings of Ad Lib sound effects?! Guy'd have to be fjörkin' crazy!

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Maybe, but he's already got me most of the sound effects. :)

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Wouldn't Adlib/SB emulation in DOSBox give high enough sound quality?

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No. Listening to DOSBox try to emulate the Ad Lib card makes me disgusted.

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The PSP version of Wolf32X (and some other versions for the PC) use the MAME AdLib FM emulation for the FM sounds and music... and it's the number one complaint from users - the FM sound is wrong/bad. SpritesMind has been researching the YM2612 in the Genesis to make emulated Genesis audio perfect - something similar needs to be done for the old PC FM chips. No matter what the MAME changelog says, PC FM audio is NOT very good. People who think it sounds better are simply used to listening to wrong FM; anyone who grew up listening to the real FM will tell you it's MAME/Dosbox that sounds wrong, not reality. :D

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Originally Posted by Mr. Ksoft

Unclean? I dunno, I have a Sound Blaster 16 in one of my old computers and the OPL3 part of it is one of the clearest, cleanest sounds it can make... it definitely blows DOSBox's quality out the window. (Plus, DOSBox doesn't emulate it completely accurately, making some sounds off. Just like a Genesis emulator compared to hardware)

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the DOSbox emulation is inaccurate, but its not having quantization noise, and it does not have that digital filter present in real chip.

TmEE doesn't the SB16 (and pro) have significantly cleaner output than older SB (and Adlib) cards?

I grew up playing Dos games with SB music (SB16 I assume) in the early-mid '90s (in both Dos and Win 95, not sure what I had in Win 98 but whatever it was it supported SB16), in fact I'd never even heard X-Wing with anything other than FM until about a year ago.
I can't do a side by side comparison as we don't have any computer with a real (or compatible) classic SB card (I'm not even sure we have any ISA motherboards kicking arounf anymore), but I don't remember X-Wing sounding any different back then than it does in DOSBox. (or when I was using VDMSound for that matter, in which Wolf3D sounds identical to DOSbox)

Granted I was only 5 or 6 when I actually played it in DOS, but it was running natively in Win95 and Win98 quite a bit later, so I assume that was representative of a real FM chip as well. (inless the sound card had actual OPL3 emulation or Win9x did so in software)

We didn't have Wolf3D (or Doom for that matter, possibly my dad did at work, but I don't remeber it at home -We were into Myst, Zork, and X-Wing around that time), so I can't vouch for what it sounded like in real hardware, but in DOSBox/VDMSound it sounds like what I hear in youtube clips listes as real DOS machines. (and definitely different than some of the ports or in Wolf32x, the PS3 version souds very close though)

The SB16 has a bit better analog area, but its still nothing good, at least not compared to my Yamaha which has OPL3 as well as all other things in it also to get full sound from DOS games.

http://nim.pansarvagn.net/hte3_ymf71...comparison.mp3
First is my Yamaha, 2nd is SB16, 3rd is DOSbox... you can clearly hear why I prefer DOSbox. It just sound so much nicer.

Tiido you're right the DosBox sounds cleaner!

Doesn't matter how "clearer" the sound is if it's wrong. It's like preferring a CD of kazoos playing Swan Lake to a cassette of the London Symphony Orchestra. ;)

In the world of emulation yes that’s true :) but if your trying to ace the original in regards to an adaption i.e. Wolf 3D surely you'd go with the best and clearest available sound rather than trying to replicate the orginal? What did other versions of Wolf do sound effect wise?

Jaguar version looks pretty cool.... never played it mind!

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Originally Posted by matteus

In the world of emulation yes that’s true :) but if your trying to ace the original in regards to an adaption i.e. Wolf 3D surely you'd go with the best and clearest available sound rather than trying to replicate the orginal? What did other versions of Wolf do sound effect wise?

Jaguar version looks pretty cool.... never played it mind!

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The emulated FM is the most complained about part of any Wolf3D conversion. I don't know for certain what the Jaguar does, but it's probably digitized samples. It doesn't really have the power to emulate the FM.

Jaguar sounds a bit like the SNES music, not sure if it's actually the same, but seeing as the Jag port was similar to the SNES port in some other ways -some of the voice samples and gameplay elements, I wouldn't be too surprised if they shared similar music as well.

What kind of stuff is off in DOSbox's OPL emulation anyway? (just some of the instruments or other things like sample rate, I think OPL emulation is 22,050 Hz standard, I'd assume the chip itsself would be similar to the Ym2612's 53 kHz)

A good many other things must use emulation as well, VDMSound for sure (that's one of the key features afterall), but some games like Sonic & Knuckles Collection allow "FM" to be slelected in place of "MIDI," and it works with just onboard sound in my old (Athlon motherboard) computer and new laptop. (and it most definitely sounded like OPL-ish stuff, distinctly different from the Genesis S&K sounds)
So would that be via software emulation? (in the program itsself) I wouldn't think modern sound cards would still support the OPL (otherwise why would DOSBox bother with emulation)...
The weird thing is that that's an older game (meant for Win95), so software emulation wouldn't make much sense. (though having FM support would, for those still using older cards)


And were Adlib cards any better than Creative's ones in respect to sound quality?

Sounds effects are the worst. They've had enough time to "tune" the emulation so that most music sounds okay, but sound effects are too varied to handle individually. Take the PSP version of Wolf3D as an example (it uses the emulated 3812 for sfx/music) - some sound effects are okay, but other don't, and some are constantly reported as "missing" (they're there, but the amplitude is WAY too low). For Wolf32X, I pre-generate the FM sound effects with the 3812 emulation, and play them back digitally like the regular digital effects. I scale some of the sound effects so you can hear them, but when I do so, you can definitely tell they're not quite correct. That's why someone is digitizing the real FM chip output for me - it'll make those FM sfx sound right.

OK I just haven't noticed any of that in Wolf3D in Dosbox (I've only played through the first 3 levels though and I can't do a side-by side comparison with real hardware -other than videos, but everything sounds fine to me)

Wing Commander also seems fine in DOSBox, this one being particularly significant given that it was meant for Adlib, so everything is FM, all music and SFX. (also the same reason it sounds awful with a standard midi sound front for MT-32 compatibility -actual MT-32 -or real MT-32 emulation- sounding good of course)

I never would of know that the sound hardware emulation was so complex and so important! Either I just don't read into as much, or you guys are just going way overboard in getting things perfect.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Jaguar sounds a bit like the SNES music, not sure if it's actually the same, but seeing as the Jag port was similar to the SNES port in some other ways -some of the voice samples and gameplay elements, I wouldn't be too surprised if they shared similar music as well.

What kind of stuff is off in DOSbox's OPL emulation anyway? (just some of the instruments or other things like sample rate, I think OPL emulation is 22,050 Hz standard, I'd assume the chip itsself would be similar to the Ym2612's 53 kHz)

A good many other things must use emulation as well, VDMSound for sure (that's one of the key features afterall), but some games like Sonic & Knuckles Collection allow "FM" to be slelected in place of "MIDI," and it works with just onboard sound in my old (Athlon motherboard) computer and new laptop. (and it most definitely sounded like OPL-ish stuff, distinctly different from the Genesis S&K sounds)
So would that be via software emulation? (in the program itsself) I wouldn't think modern sound cards would still support the OPL (otherwise why would DOSBox bother with emulation)...
The weird thing is that that's an older game (meant for Win95), so software emulation wouldn't make much sense. (though having FM support would, for those still using older cards)


And were Adlib cards any better than Creative's ones in respect to sound quality?

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Actually, the music was rewritten for the Jaguar so it could be taken advantage of. Carmac and id Software handdled the port of Wolfenstein 3d for the Jaguar personally. I wish I could find the old interview I read where Carmac was talking about how much fun he had porting the game for the Jaguar.

It was my understanding that Wolf 3D was a rather quick and dirty port for the Jaguar, largely done to familiarize them with the hardware in preparation for the Doom port.

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Originally Posted by TmEE

First is my Yamaha, 2nd is SB16, 3rd is DOSbox... you can clearly hear why I prefer DOSbox. It just sound so much nicer.

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Is the Yamaha that MPU-401 card for the SB16 Waveport or is it a separate soundcard? I kinda like the sound of it... XD
I never used DOSbox, I've stuck with my old Win95 PC. hehe.

Also, the DOSbox emulation that you recorded there sounds somewhat like C64 SID music.

That Yamaha is a separate ISA soundcard... so no way to use it in a modern PC or hook it up to any unless you buy some ultr@ expensive PCI to ISA bridge card...

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

It was my understanding that Wolf 3D was a rather quick and dirty port for the Jaguar, largely done to familiarize them with the hardware in preparation for the Doom port.

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From the little I've seen the port looks rather impressive. If I weren't so incredibly terrified by the Jaguar's controller I'd buy the thing just because of the Wolf3D port.

Well it's pretty decent, but could have been better (particularly with the odd SNES similarities -some voice samples in particular), it's pretty nice overall, smoothe, colorful graphics, transparent status bar/display, nice music/sound, and higher res sprites like the 3DO version. (but like the 3DO and SNES ports, the sprites are single sided)

I don't know what's so frightning about the Jag controller, more or less a 3-button genny pad with ergonomic shape, select button and key pad. (unfortunately the key pad wasn't used for weapons in Wolf3D, just saves iirc, unlike Doom which properly utilized the keys) The best application for those IMO is facilitating more accurate controls with PC ports, or allowing games that would have otherwise have been impossible to properly support controlls for. (ones with lots of multitasking, Like X-Wing it would have been perfect for, I think Iron soldier used this, and maybe some strategy games)

Granted the later Jaguar pro controller was a lot better, much more well rounded, though it didn't add any more buttons, just re-mapped 5 of the keys, still much more well rounded though.


It's certainly not a contributing factor for me not having a Jag, that would be mainly because of the price, had I gotten into collected a few years ago when they were dirt cheap, I might have picked one up, but now... too expensive for my taste. (collecting's a casual hobby for me, and getting stuff cheap is a big part of it)

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

(but like the 3DO and SNES ports, the sprites are single sided)

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What version of Doom had multi-sided sprites? They were all flat! Looked the same from every angle!

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

From the little I've seen the port looks rather impressive. If I weren't so incredibly terrified by the Jaguar's controller I'd buy the thing just because of the Wolf3D port.

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The Jaguar control pad isn't that bad. The point is that people just likie making fun of the Jaguar in general as it is considered to be a total failure. However, the system is actually rather good and the controller is just fine.

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Originally Posted by mrbigreddog

What version of Doom had multi-sided sprites? They were all flat! Looked the same from every angle!

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Firstly, I was talking about Wolf3D not Doom... As far as Doom goes, the PC version had 8-sided sprites for live enemies (single sided for items, orbjects and corpses), the Jaguar port had this as well, and I think PSX, Saturn, GBA, and maybe 3DO ports as well. 32x and SNES were definitely single sided though.

I'm not sure if wolf 3D had 8-sided sprites, but at least multi-sided of some sort in the PC original (you can sneak up on enemies from behind). The PSX, Jaguar, and 3DO versions lack this feature, not sure about GBA though. I think most modern ports have the multisided sprites as well, including Chilly Willy's 32x port. (which is derived from his previous PSP port I beleive)

Doom for the Atari Jaguar used a custom made C compiler for the Jag that ID made because the one that Atari supplied was bad. It's probably the first 2.5D game game that successfully took advantage of the Jags full capabilities using a C compiler. Every game after that, that was written in C, had to use Atari C compiler, which most likely used the M68K chip which hogs the Jag bus. To this day no one knows where ID C compiler is; I wish some one could find it because it beats the heck out Assembler.