I mean... they keep trying these new ideas. Sonic Adventure got the 3d Sonic right, why not do that again? Sonic Adventure 3? Or hell, why not Sonic the Hedgehog 4? I would LOVE a side-scrolling Sonic in 3D without a deep story.
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I mean... they keep trying these new ideas. Sonic Adventure got the 3d Sonic right, why not do that again? Sonic Adventure 3? Or hell, why not Sonic the Hedgehog 4? I would LOVE a side-scrolling Sonic in 3D without a deep story.
"Simple" has never been SEGA's forte, God bless em.:horse::bang:Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmul123
IGN just gave Sonic and the Black Knight like a 3.9. Sounds like a successor to Shadow the Hedgehog, which is sad because I had a lot of hope for the game.
Sonic games don't work in 3D. Simple. It is easier to keep track on how everything is happening if it is a sidescroller. Ever wonder why Sonic Rush, the Sonic Advance and Sonic Unleashed got such positive acclaim?
A 3.9 for sonic and the black knight? Wow. I kind of figured that would would score at least as high as The Secret Rings.
By the way, how close are we to getting a dedicated Sonic bitch thread? There's been hundreds of these bad boys, and it'd be nice to see them conveniently consolidated in one easily referenced thread.
My sources tell me that SEGA makes mediocre Sonic games so fans will continue to talk about them. The fear is, once people stop talking about them, the ground will open up and swallow the entire company whole.
Since their next games are "Sonic Cooking" and "Sonic: The FPS" I think they won't have to worry for awhile.
Sonic the FPS sounds like the best idea evar. I would love to see how they execute it.
And I don't agree about the Sonic not working in 3D theory. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are the best non-sidescrolling Sonic games ever made. I just wish they would have focused more on Sonic instead of all the side characters. It's called Sonic Adventure for a reason, not Big the Cat or E-102 Adventure.
Sonic Adventure is not a good game. I too thought it was a good game when I played it but if you go back and play it again you will realize just how terrible the camera really was.
I beg to differ :!:Quote:
Originally Posted by Flygon
Sonic Adventure 1 was a great 3D sonic game that embodied the entertainment value and quality of the 2D versions.
Sonic Adventure 2 was OK. The sonic levels were fun and polished but they made a big mistake making the Knuckles and tails stages mandatory to progress.
But to answer the original question. Why does Sega suck at making Sonic games? Well, because they treat the franchise like a pinata. Whenever they need money they take a few swings at it until cash drops out of it but they don't realize that everytime they do this the Pinata (Sonic Franchise) keeps looking worse and worse as time goes by.
Sega....time to get back to your roots
I agree, the camera is pretty frustrating at times, but that doesn't make it a bad game at all. Even Mario 64 had a finicky camera at times, but this is to be expected in pretty much all 3D platformers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffy2k316
It's too bad too. The Dreamcast era was pretty much Sega's return after a faulty, greedy Saturn era. But by the DC era, people just didn't care about Sega anymore no matter how high quality the system and its games were. I guess Sega realizes this too and that's why they aim to make the most money, not the best games.
Kind of like EA, really. sigh.
The only moments in "Sonic Adventure" that were good were when Sonic was zipping around at high speed.
The game just looses too much steam when you have to play all the other characters crappy sections, and there isn't enough of Sonic to overcome that.
SA2 was a giant bag of boring, so much that I couldn't even finish the game.
heh, just got back from having lunch with a friend and we spent nearly an hour discussing how awful the sonic franchise has become. We both agreed that sonic adventure 2 was the last OK sonic game (despite all the additional characters and game play styles), and everything after that (minus some of the handheld offerings) have been pathetic.
Who continues to buy these sonic games? Who is telling sega mucking about with the format is such a good idea? My friend suggested that mario has been able to reinvent himself in 3D with much better results (ex: mario galaxy, and to a much lesser extent sunshine), but Sonic never quite could manage with the gimmicks. And just when it seemed like Sega might have had a decent sonic game on their hands with unleashed... they included the bizarre were-hog sections that reviewers univerally panned. Just makes me scratch my head really.:daze:
I agree w/ TheEdge on this one, the only good Sonic game I remember playing recently was Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood by BiowareQuote:
Originally Posted by TheEdge
I think Sega have decided to only make bad, low budget Sonic games because they sell just as much as good, high budget games. There is more profit to the former.
I think another problem that Sega have is that they are aiming at the wrong target audience. All the fairly recent Sonic games seem to appeal to a young audience, but the problem is that kids these days don't actually remember Sonic being in a good game, so are like "why do I care?" The majorite of Sonic fans who remember the original games and their significance are all probably in their 30's now, so I think that the first step Sega should take in removing the nails from Sonic's coffin is thinking about what the older gamers want from the Sonic franchise.
More speed, more Sonic, less side-characters, less story.
It's really not that hard.
Well maybe - but Sonic Unleashed's Sonic levels feature loads of speed but were little more than a graphical showcase, and irritating beyond belief on numerous occasions. I think the reason the original games were so good was because you could choose whether to blast through at top speed or explore the levels - and either way worked quite well. When the new Sonic games go fast, they seem to adopt an 'on rails' experience that's sorely lacking in gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmul123
How do you make a good 2D Sonic game?
Sonic 2 + SonicCD + Enhanced Graphic = Good Sonic game
How do you make a good 3D Sonic game?
Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 - Side characters = Good Sonic game
I don't blame those people. I had friends who would still refer in disgust to the money spent on their Sega CDs and 32Xs whenever I mentioned the DC. It was almost impossible to convince people to buy one, no matter which game I showed them.Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmul123
Seeing the low review of Sonic and the Black Knight really disappoints me. I liked Sonic and the Secret Rings, but thought there were some major changes necessary, like analogue movement instead of motion movement. And then Sonic Unleashed came out, and while the Werehog shit was boring, the regular stages were a ton of fun.
How could they mess up? Instead of motion movement, they used analogue control. The visuals are arguably the best third-party graphics on the system. And it's Sonic running around on a set path!!! For the life of me, I don't get how they keep getting things wrong. All the ingredients are there, but they keep mucking up the recipe.
Like pizza? Well we have some dough, pepperoni, tomato sauce, and mozzarella here, oh... and here's some potato salad to throw on there too! And some chocolate ice cream!
Why can't Sega just keep the ingredients that work, and throw away the rest?
I think this is the best explanation yet. It's a spot-on description of what Sega's been doing with the franchise over the past decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEdge
I'd always hoped that a 3D Sonic game would be sorta like that Sonic CD intro...zipping around, jumping and somersaulting off of rocks.
Instead of fast and nimble, we get 2 million Sonic buddies and a Were-hog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEdge
(refering to the 3d sonics)
But even SA1 and SA2 featured a multitude of sections that an above poster refered to as "on rails"... looking back at the 2D games.. that also had sections like this.. but were used much more spairingly...
I think this is also an issue for Sega to take a look at and evaluate if this is the best mechanic to use for faster/loop sections...
Just some thoughts....
I couldn't disagree more. The Sonic series is so diverse, it's absolutely impossible to pin down a single element that says 'this is a Sonic game'. However, everyone on the internet is constantly insisting that this is what makes a Sonic game, no no it isn't, it's this that sonic team should make into a full game! No shut up faggot, i grew up with the game and this is how i remember it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamba Tabac
Sega are out to make money. They're a business - making fanboys' wet dreams come true is only an added bonus. Are they really stupid for going after the wallets of kids' parents, or the 30-year-olds who only pinch off essays for Digg about how Silver the Hedgehog doesn't really fit into the accepted Sonic the Hedgehog canon?
My opinion is that the opinions expressed by 'fans' are so schizophrenic, somebody's going to be pissed off every time a New Sonic Game gets announced. The ensuing bawwwwwing gets magnified by the various echo chambers out there, manifesting itself in user comments, and it snowballs into a gigantic heap of indignant, sour-grapes bitterness from there.
It's like everyone's seen the piniata before the party, but everyone's blindfolded and are screaming conflicting instructions at Sega who's holding the bat: "Less characters!" "Put my fancharacter in!" "More speed!" "No 3D!" In the end, everyone ends up with concussion cuz they've all been hit by missed swings at the piniata, and some kids come and steal the piniata and eat the contents later anyway.
Yes but practically everyone is pissed off with the way that the Sonic games have turned out over the last decade.
Of course Sega arn't idiots for exploiting gullible parents, but that doesn't mean that the games have to be terrible. I'm sure the original games appealed to parents' wallets but they were gaming gold.
Damn it, now I want candy...
SA2's 'high-speed' levels were white knuckle intense.
The rest... eh.
I second this.Quote:
How do you make a good 2D Sonic game?
Sonic 2 + SonicCD + Enhanced Graphic = Good Sonic game
How do you make a good 3D Sonic game?
Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 - Side characters = Good Sonic game
The last great Sonic game was Sonic 3 & Knuckles. The last decent Sonic game was Sonic Adventure. Basically everything else since then has been total wank. Sonic just doesn't work that well in 3D (or at the very least, Sega cannot produce a decent camera angle in a 3D Sonic game), and when a "mature" narrative gets thrown in, things just get embarrassing.
I hear people occasionally praising the GBA/DS titles, but I can't see why. Those games are average in every sense of the word. The levels are poorly designed, the colors are all bullshit pastels, the music is extremely pedestrian (with the exception of Sonic Rush, but even then I just think the soundtrack is interesting... not great), all of the games have essentially the same exact levels, and, in addition to being obnoxiously difficult, they're just dull as all hell. I have never been put to sleep playing a Sonic game before Sonic Advance 3.
Thanks:!:Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj iwakura
Sega should just hire Sega-16 Forum members so Sonic can finally be revived. :cool:
They have several key problems-
* Sonic Team has a god complex. They do as they please. They deliberately ignored their beta testers/bug reports for Sonic 2006 and released an unfinished game. They shoehorn new features(guns, vehicles) into an engine that isn't made for it.
* too many POORLY WRITTEN characters. Knuckles becomes increasingly dumber with each game. If he's supposed to guard the Master Emerald, he does a really lousy job of it, since he's usually seen following Sonic around. Sega also decided that Knuckles is "black", saddling him with godawful rap music themes(the SA2 tunes were ESPECIALLY male). Knuckles is as black as Steve Martin, so I don't get why they do this. The character hasn't bene useful tot he franchise since Knuckles Chaotix anyway.
Rouge the Bat(a character that doesn't really fit in with the cast to begin with) has multiple personalities. Compare how she behaves in Sonic 2006 compared to most of the games. May as well be 2 separate female characters. They throw a character in for the sake of the character's fans then dont bother to make sure the character has a working brain. They pack the games FULL of these supporting characters when many have no use whatsoever.
* needless one-sides romance subplots. Amy screeches at Sonic, he runs away. Rouge flirts with everyone and ets turned down. Sonic Team has stated that they will NEVER have romance in the series, so I don't know why they throw this crap in. It leads to message board arguments over which characters should be dating. Sad fact? Knuckles is no doubt gay. He hangs around Sonic all the time and ignores the d-cup bat. He's gay.
* the fans themselves. They whine and scream for 2D. Sega gives them Sonic Advance and Sonic Rush. The fans ignore it and keep screaming for 2D games. They argue endlessly over who should date who, flaming anyone who thinks otherwise, ignoring canon game evidence showing hwo said characters hate each other. You know these people have no love lives of their own, if they argue whether or not Sonic should date Amy, if Sally should be imported into the series proper, or if he should marry Tails.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diosoth
Very well thought out ^ Good Points
I think the Sonic storyline should revert back to a pro-Environmentalist theme. Make a story about Sonic freeing animals from being made into living batteries for Robot-nik's machines.
Throw in a funny Captain Planet-ish theme song and I will be happy with it
(Sonic, He's a Hero, Gonna take Robot-Nik down to Zero! Gonna help him save the planet......)
You get the point.
I will give you that your other points are valid, but...Quote:
Originally Posted by Diosoth
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry coeurl
I just they'd go back to calling him "Robotnik".
Fuck that stupid "Eggman" shit.
Again, it depends what you mean by 'terrible', as to be 'terrible' it has to be compared to something! One person's perfect Sonic level is a non-stop race to the finish a la Unleashed Daytime levels, while another wants a 2.5D version of Green Hill Zone. The RPG crowd want to be able to level up and customise Sonic's abilities a la Secret Rings' abilities, the other just want MOOOOOAAR SPEEEED. Otherwise, we're just left with airy-fairy 'it just doesn't FEEL right!' nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamba Tabac
No, they have a job, with responsibilities and deadlines to meet; by all means if you have any interviews with these tester drones I'd be interested though. I know that 'you never finish a game, they just take it away from you' is a developer cliche though :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Diosoth
New features? See my point above about fan checklists.
'Lousy job'? A 'guard the M.E.' game would be boring, he has to get off the Island some time or another, it's the point of the game.Quote:
* too many POORLY WRITTEN characters. Knuckles becomes increasingly dumber with each game. If he's supposed to guard the Master Emerald, he does a really lousy job of it, since he's usually seen following Sonic around. Sega also decided that Knuckles is "black",
I'll play the character game: Knuckles is a tough character, therefore he gets a tough-guy soundtrack. Why play the 'how black is x character' game?
They 'throw this crap in' because it adds something to the story? A big point of Sonic Chronicles' story was everyone being awkward around Sonic for how long he'd been away. Again, it's up to the fans which way they take it.Quote:
* needless one-sides romance subplots. Amy screeches at Sonic, he runs away. Rouge flirts with everyone and ets turned down. Sonic Team has stated that they will NEVER have romance in the series, so I don't know why they throw this crap in. It leads to message board arguments over which characters should be dating. Sad fact? Knuckles is no doubt gay. He hangs around Sonic all the time and ignores the d-cup bat. He's gay.
'He's gay'. So edgy.
Okay, so you don't like the portable games: that's not a bad thing. Go fire up another Sonic game, and you'll find one you like eventually!Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry coeurl
Melf: a) it's humorous that someone managed to condense the fan-cycle into an image macro, but b) is it Sonic Team's fault that their fans hype, hype and overhype their game only to face their hopes and dreams being crushed?
I Agree Robotnik sounds much better than Eggman :cool:
I think Sonic should be retired, honestly. Obviously, that's not gonna happen. But hasn't the poor guy suffered enough? Do we really need 100 more crappy-to-middling Sonic titles. I guess Sega thinks so, but I just can't agree!
Look at Street Fighter 4. That's proof that there can be a good 2D Sonic game without losing modern graphics.