Hmmm, this discussion has been quite interesting, I've been thinking about another point recently, if these UK made games such as Chuck Rock, Speedball 2 and Robocod are the games here that were getting all the popularity and word of mouth then Nintendo's licensing agreement would've been seriously hurting them here (whilst sealing their success everywhere else) as unless you were a UK company with an excellent distribution network in the US (such as Rareware did) or you had the technical know-how to say "screw your licensing agreement we'll make our own cartridges" like Codemasters did then signing up to make games only for the NES with 2 year exclusivity would've been suicidal for you as the overseas market would be unavailable and youd be stuck making games for the least popular games machine in your home country.
Then you look at the more popular Master System and what games are available? Chuck Rock, Speedball 2 and Robocod :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
I am appalled. I can understand Brazil being behind in the times, since they are pretty much a second world country, but there's no excuse for Europe being so behind as well. 8-Bit computer gaming was dead in 1990, yet Europe still embraced it.
It's definately the budget stuff keeping the Spectrum and C64 in the public eye I think as most of their high selling games are from Codemasters whilst the full price games in the top 20 are always on Amiga, it half helps to explain your comment about how the Amiga sales should be higher with the UK support it received as well as the UK market was split 3 ways with the Amiga (The Atari ST/Amiga could be put together realistically as it seems that developers usually made a game for one of them and then rush ported it to the other) being the focus for coders wanting to make more state of the art games.
And anyway this recent talk of Salamander has made me realise that if the NES was still popular in the US in 1990 then there's no reason why the C64 shouldn't have been also as the NES hardware, whilst better in certain areas was inferior to the C64 in others (sprite capabilities) and by 1990 if the C64 was still massive in the US they could've even started releasing more games on cartridge in higher numbers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Robocod is a horrible game; It came out on the Genesis and nobody cared. James Pond anyone?
I think this shows a big difference between peoples wants in the US and Europe for the time as Robocod was pretty much touted as being the perfect platform game here (there doesn't seem to be many fans around anymore though which is a shame) The critics would say stuff like "the levels are unbelievably big and explorable with loads of hidden sections, mappers will love it" and "the game is so long that people will definately get their money's worth"
Another thing to mention here is that James Pond II is much better on Amiga than it is on the Mega Drive
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
To say that Super Mario Brothers wasn't filled with puzzles and exploration, is really overlooking its significance to the platforming genre.
By puzzle solving I think a good example of what I mean would be the Dizzy games or if you've played it the Amiga game Arabian Nights, basically games where you have to do platforming sections to pick up items and then works out where you need to use the items.
I don't think SMB or SMB2 really have an element of exploration as they are quite linear left-to-right pop down a pipe and then come back afterwards type affairs, though the Raccoon suit in SMB3 most definately adds an element of exploration though I'm not sure if it rewards you as much as other games like Robocod, from what I remember for every warp pipe I'd find in SMB3 there'd be 4 or 5 times where I'd fly around the levels and nothing would be there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Did you honestly buy an Amiga to play simplified puzzle games? 90% of those puzzle games could be played on old 8-bit computers and consoles. I bought an Amiga to experience stunning graphics and sound, not dated stuff.
Buying it for "stunning graphics and sound" doesn't stop you from picking up a few puzzle games later on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
You'll find that there was just as much crap after 1986 as there was during 1984. The system had such a verying level of competence with the programmers that made the games, that no matter what year the game came out, it could look like crap or be the best thing to ever be on the system. I'd say the best years of the C64 came between 1984 and 1989, when most of the major publishers were supporting the system. EA made a killing importing European titles to N. America and N. American titles to Europe.
With this issue I completely agree with you, I know I should appreciate the older games more but I just don't. When I get into conversations like this and someone talks about the C64 greats and mentions stuff like Miner 49er and Jumpman i'd liken it to being exactly the same as someone talking about the NES' best games and only mentioning Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong, Load Runner, Excite Bike and Mappy
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
I wasn't comparing it to the NES version. I happen to own the Amiga version of Bionic Commando and it's spot on with the arcade game.
Which version of Bionic Commando on the C64 did you play theres two, the US version and the UK version which is supposed to be better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
I'd say it was the other way around. I happen to have both versions of Lifeforce and the C64 version struggles to keep up with the amount of sprites required of the game. I'd guess C64 version is missing a couple of levels, because it's more than likely they were too much for the programmers to squeeze out out of the older hardware.
The NES version doesn't even try so isn't really doing anything anyway and is very underwhelming
For me, when looking at those pictures I personally think that the NES version has a poor, garish colour choice, extremely crude repeating texture work and scaled back underwhelming spikes, this is nothing compared to how badly the C64 version outclasses it on the fire level though.
04-14-2009, 01:20 AM
gamevet
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesus.arnold
I don't think SMB or SMB2 really have an element of exploration as they are quite linear left-to-right pop down a pipe and then come back afterwards type affairs, though the Raccoon suit in SMB3 most definately adds an element of exploration though I'm not sure if it rewards you as much as other games like Robocod, from what I remember for every warp pipe I'd find in SMB3 there'd be 4 or 5 times where I'd fly around the levels and nothing would be there.
SMB was linear, if you chose to play it that way, as was SMB3. It's the hidden levels that made the replay value go out the roof.
Quote:
Which version of Bionic Commando on the C64 did you play theres two, the US version and the UK version which is supposed to be better.
I may have played it, but it wasn't that memorable. Like I said, "I see no reason to give a vote for the C64 version of Bionic Commando, since I had an arcade perfect version on the Amiga."
Listing BC as a top game on the C64, is like listing Stunt Track Racer or Shadow of the Beast. Why would I, when the Amiga version came out about the same time, and totally trounced those versions?
Quote:
The NES version doesn't even try so isn't really doing anything anyway and is very underwhelming
For me, when looking at those pictures I personally think that the NES version has a poor, garish colour choice, extremely crude repeating texture work and scaled back underwhelming spikes, this is nothing compared to how badly the C64 version outclasses it on the fire level though.
The NES version (yeah, they really cheesed on the spike sprites coming out of the walls) is closer to the arcade. The C64 programmers took shortcuts, to compensate for the hardware's shortcomings. They replaced the alien looking backgrounds with a starfield (Why do they have a starfield inside a cavern?), yet the arcade game had no such thing. The illusion was supposed to illustrate what it looked line inside an alien world; I don't believe a starfield would be appropriate for that. The C64 version is also missing the upgrade bar and has nothing more than the score.
Here's a comparison of the arcade, NES and C64 versions of the game. You'll find that the NES version's colors (and graphics) are about as close as they could get with the hardware, while the C64 version had to cut down the colors, since the hardware color pallete was more limited, and drop the background tiles. The music is defineatly better on the C64, since it had a better sound chip.
04-14-2009, 01:28 AM
Tanegashima
We had an S load of games for our Commodore 64, including last ninja 2...85% of which were pirated. I still have some of the games and many of my fathers old manuals. He honest to god used that computer until 1998!! Impossible Mission was my first vidya game...
04-14-2009, 01:52 AM
tomaitheous
My 2 cents on the Salamander thing and c64 Vs NES thing (it comes up a lot in a lot of forums). C64 low horiztonal res is a big turn off for a lot of people, including myself back then. Then there's the washed out colors of the c64. There are some games that do their best and hide it, but in general it's there. That, and most music in general on the NES (Ninja Gaiden, Contra, Castlevania, Final Fantasy, etc) at the time sounded better to me than the c64 tunes. It sounded more 'full' while being relaxed. The c64 sounded the opposite (probably because they were trying to get more individual instrument sounds out of the 3 channel device).
I think the tiles look better in that first level comparison of that game, for the NES. Same with the colors and res.
04-14-2009, 02:01 AM
gamevet
The NES sound was monotone, while the C64 had stereo.
The NES was capable of creating a very unique sound and the programmers made the most of it. It really was a matter of preference, I suppose, since the C64 could pull off some amazing music, but the NES was no slouch either.
04-14-2009, 04:41 AM
kool kitty89
And codemaster pulled off some music on the NES that is strikingly similar to C64 style tunes, so much so that if you heard if you heard it for the first time and didn't know better, you might just think it was on the C64. (in particular the almost kazoo-like humming kind of sound, and the "bubbly" sounding tunes)
04-14-2009, 09:36 AM
jesus.arnold
Tbh if I thought there was any comparison between the two versions I wouldn't have put the pictures up in the 1st place, I think some of you are just being coloured by the fact that you grew up with the NES, look at the textures! they're just 1 squigly red line put on repeat! it's actually noticible even for those not interested in programming that this section is made up of square tiles just while playing it whilst the C64 version at least makes an attempt to blend them together
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
The NES version (yeah, they really cheesed on the spike sprites coming out of the walls) is closer to the arcade. The C64 programmers took shortcuts, to compensate for the hardware's shortcomings.
The spikes/flame sections on ther NES show the shortcomings of the NES, the NES had bad sprite capabilities, the sprites were very limited and were way too small (basically the only thing they were good for is what the hardware was designed for, platformers) as soon as you needed loads of sprites together to create the illusion of 1 big moving section you were screwed with the NES.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
They replaced the alien looking backgrounds with a starfield (Why do they have a starfield inside a cavern?), yet the arcade game had no such thing. The illusion was supposed to illustrate what it looked line inside an alien world
The NES version has no illusion of flying through an alien either as there needs to be a proper background for this to work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
The C64 version is also missing the upgrade bar and has nothing more than the score.
The game is not supposed to have an upgrade bar in fact the upgrade bar actually compromises the gameplay in a number of ways, the whole point of that game in the 1st place was because Konami wanted to experiment with different methods that wouldn't leave you powerless in later levels after losing a life, this is why it was labeled an offshoot of Gradius and not a sequel.
The upgrade bar was a later revision of the arcade game to give it more appeal to Gradius fans, The NES version is not a true port of either version as it contains elements of both versions whilst the C64 version is a true port of the original game
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Here's a comparison of the arcade, NES and C64 versions of the game. You'll find that the NES version's colors (and graphics) are about as close as they could get with the hardware, while the C64 version had to cut down the colors, since the hardware color pallete was more limited, and drop the background tiles. The music is defineatly better on the C64, since it had a better sound chip.
For me the only real criticism of the C64 hardware is definately the colour pallet, it seems like a very poorly chosen variety of colours (and from what I've heard there wasn't actually much deliberations original on what colours to use for the pallet, many of them only appearing as opposites of those already chosen)
04-14-2009, 10:54 AM
gamegenie
I finally got Zool 2 for Jaguar.
This game is awesome and completely underrated game.
04-14-2009, 10:14 PM
gamevet
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesus.arnold
Tbh if I thought there was any comparison between the two versions I wouldn't have put the pictures up in the 1st place, I think some of you are just being coloured by the fact that you grew up with the NES, look at the textures! they're just 1 squigly red line put on repeat! it's actually noticible even for those not interested in programming that this section is made up of square tiles just while playing it whilst the C64 version at least makes an attempt to blend them together
It's a known fact that the NES could draw larger sprites, and produce larger tiles than the C64. The first boss in the video I posted is missing an arm on the C64 game, because the sprite draw lines wouldn't allow it.
Quote:
The spikes/flame sections on ther NES show the shortcomings of the NES, the NES had bad sprite capabilities, the sprites were very limited and were way too small (basically the only thing they were good for is what the hardware was designed for, platformers) as soon as you needed loads of sprites together to create the illusion of 1 big moving section you were screwed with the NES.
No, that was just poor sprite placement by the programmer. He could have easily shifted the spikes back slightly, or moved the tiled sections in slightly.
Quote:
The NES version has no illusion of flying through an alien either as there needs to be a proper background for this to work.
Now you're just being goofy. You can clearly see in the videos that the C64 version cut out a bunch of the background tiles, because of the limits of the hardware. The starfield background (easily produced on the Atari 2600) is way different than the arcade version, while the NES version changed the background tiles slightly, but still kept the effect of being inside a living world.
Quote:
The game is not supposed to have an upgrade bar in fact the upgrade bar actually compromises the gameplay in a number of ways, the whole point of that game in the 1st place was because Konami wanted to experiment with different methods that wouldn't leave you powerless in later levels after losing a life, this is why it was labeled an offshoot of Gradius and not a sequel.
The upgrade bar was a later revision of the arcade game to give it more appeal to Gradius fans, The NES version is not a true port of either version as it contains elements of both versions whilst the C64 version is a true port of the original game.
You're right! The US version of Salamander was called Lifeforce and yes it did not have the powerup bar. The Japanese version 2.0 was renamed Lifeforce and incorporated the powerup bar. The NES version of Lifeforce appears to be based on the updated Japanese version of Salamander called Lifeforce.
The 2 level changes made on the NES version actually improved upon the game.
GAMEPLAY: This is a half-hearted port of the original Salamander arcade game. Normally, this would be bad, but in the case of Life Force, it's actually pretty good. Only a couple of arcade levels made it intact, while the other two were ditched for new original ones. As someone who has played both versions, the new levels are actually superior to the arcade (which were treks in space) and provide players will a good challenge. The existing levels that did make it are pretty smooth translations despite suffering some losses here and there; although in the long run, it really doesn't matter. I really like the transition between horizontal and vertical scrolling levels, as it manages to make things a little different. The control system is reminiscent of Gradius, another change from the arcade game, but this is actually pretty good; I much prefer the ability to customize your firepower than pick up something that is of absolutely no use to me. Control is pretty good, considering it's an NES game. 10/10
The story between the different versions of Salamander differs. While the story in the arcade original is not entirely clear, the NES version claims a large creature named Zelos (possibly the serpent often pictured on the game's cover art) is preparing to swallow your planet whole, and you must stop it from the inside out.The US arcade follows primarily the same story. the Japanese LifeForce may have a more surgery-related story, involving the removal of an unwanted virus or microbe from the body. The MSX version of Salamander differs the most from any of these. Basically, a prophecy from long ago comes true when an army attacks Latis and it's surrounding planets. They have created a barrier around Latis, and the only way to undo it is by activating a 'crush below' system created by ancient Latisians.
Quote:
For me the only real criticism of the C64 hardware is definately the colour pallet, it seems like a very poorly chosen variety of colours (and from what I've heard there wasn't actually much deliberations original on what colours to use for the pallet, many of them only appearing as opposites of those already chosen)
The choices were made because of the hardware, not because the programmers decided to make the game different.
Here's a quick rundown of how much more the NES could do with sprites and tiles.
PPU 2000h-23FFh - Name Table 0 and Attribute Table 0 (1K)
PPU 2400h-27FFh - Name Table 1 and Attribute Table 1 (1K)
PPU 2800h-2BFFh - Name Table 2 and Attribute Table 2 (1K)
PPU 2C00h-2FFFh - Name Table 3 and Attribute Table 3 (1K)
PPU 3000h-3EFFh - Mirror of 2000h-2EFFh
Name Table Format
Each Name Table occupies 3C0h bytes, containing 8bit tile numbers for 32x30 tiles (256x240 pixels). The tiles are fetched from Pattern Table 0 or 1 (depending on Bit 4 in PPU Control Register 1). Note that NTSC displays may be unable to display the whole 256x240 pixels, basically the relevant portion of screen output should be in the <middle> 32x28 tiles (256x224 pixels) see PPU Dimensions and Timings chapter for more info.
Attribute Table Format
Each Name Table is directly followed by an Attribute Table of 40h bytes, containing 2bit background palette numbers for each 16x16 pixel field. Each byte in the Attribute table defines palette numbers for a 32x32 pixel area:
Bit0-1 Palette Number for upperleft 16x16 pixels of the 32x32 area
Bit2-3 Palette Number for upperright 16x16 pixels of the 32x32 area
Bit4-5 Palette Number for lowerleft 16x16 pixels of the 32x32 area
Bit6-7 Palette Number for lowerright 16x16 pixels of the 32x32 area
Note: Attributes for each 8x1 pixel row are fetched from cartridge bus. The MMC5 Mapper with EXRAM allows to use different palettes for each 8x8 pixel tile, instead of sharing one palette for above 16x16 areas.
The PPU supports 64 sprites, which can be either 8x8 or 8x16 pixels in size, only 8 sprites can be displayed per scanline. The sprite Tile bitmaps are kept within the Pattern Table region of VRAM (which is also used for BG Tiles).
The C64 specs were pretty straight forward and even in the programmer's reference guide, these limitations were made evident.
GRAPHIC CAPABILITY: Resolutions; 320 x 200 (Standard & Multi-Color Bit Map Modes) / 40 Column x 25 Line (Standard, Multi-Color & Extended Background Color Character Display Modes) / Standard & Multi-Color Sprite Capability (Eight Programmable Sprite Capability)Color Depth; 16 pre-defined colors /
The C64 could be tweeked slightly beyond its proposed specs, but you'd usually start to see flickering, slowdown (as seen in the Salamander video) and sprite breakup as a result.
The C64 was great hardware for its time, and the soundchip really didn't get outclassed until more powerful 16-bit hardware came along. Still, the graphics were limited by a small sprite count and a 16 color pallet.
Compare these versions of Contra, Operation Wolf, Marble Madness and 1942 on the C64 and NES. ;)
I do prefer the bullet display in the C64 version of Operation Wolf, and the lifebar is more like the arcade, but the background tiling is horrible and the buildings look flat. But why play either of these, since the Amiga version rocks!?
04-15-2009, 02:45 PM
jesus.arnold
04-15-2009, 04:36 PM
j_factor
Let's have a video war!
For what it's worth, I really don't think Marble Madness is a fair comparison. The C64 version came out in 1986 alongside several other computer ports and was done by some guy at EA. The NES version came out in 1989 and was produced all by itself, specifically for the NES, and by Tengen I believe. If the C64 version had had the same level of attention/effort it would've come out much better. I mean you can tell just by comparing it to other C64 games that it could've been much better.
Also the Salamander/Life Force comparison is silly. The C64 version is a port of Salamander, not Life Force. Level 2 is supposed to have a starfield background, as the original arcade version did. Also, the NES version is missing background graphics too -- look at the first boss for example.
04-15-2009, 05:14 PM
gamevet
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
Let's have a video war!
For what it's worth, I really don't think Marble Madness is a fair comparison. The C64 version came out in 1986 alongside several other computer ports and was done by some guy at EA. The NES version came out in 1989 and was produced all by itself, specifically for the NES, and by Tengen I believe. If the C64 version had had the same level of attention/effort it would've come out much better. I mean you can tell just by comparing it to other C64 games that it could've been much better.
In all fairness, I believe the excellent Amiga port was done in simular fashion. And the arcade game was designed by one person as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marble_Madness
Quote:
Also the Salamander/Life Force comparison is silly. The C64 version is a port of Salamander, not Life Force. Level 2 is supposed to have a starfield background, as the original arcade version did. Also, the NES version is missing background graphics too -- look at the first boss for example.
I honestly forgot how that conversation got started. ;)
04-16-2009, 12:59 AM
tomaitheous
C64 has better sprite per scanline hardware. 12(double pixel though) wide sprites and up to 8 per scanline, has a better ratio than NES's 8 sprites and 8 pixels wide. But the NES has a better color system for the sprites. 4 palettes for the sprites. Only 3 colors like the c64, but the c64 has an additional color limitation that forces 1 original color and the other 2 must be a common/shared color with other sprites (I don't code for c64, my source is the c64 tech thread of programmers). The c64 only has 8 sprite registers, but you can change the registers on scanline interrupts. It's not as nice as hardware multiplexed sprites of the NES and it costs actual CPU time to do it (and the setup/routines) - but it could show more than 64 sprites on screen. NES has a built in sprite DMA. It's fast, but not fast enough to update all 64 sprite entries in Hblank time (there's a single sprite write reg too, but iirc there are some bugs with it possibly during active display - can't remember at the moment).
NES only has 2k of RAM built in. But tons of games use the additional 8k SRAM expansion. Combined 10k is more than enough since the PPU takes care of everything video wise and the game data is on the ROM (which the biggest size is 512k for code). The NES PPU setup is more versatile than the c64 too. The NES has no VRAM for tiles/sprites. That's all on the cart. Be it VRAM or VROM. Most games use VROM (up to 512k - separate from code rom) and add mappers to the address lines. The NES can swap in/out new tiles/sprites faster than any 16bit or 32bit console because of this. The Gameboy dev cart does this to show GB graphics on the NES. The MMC5 chip can actually improve the graphics of the NES by reducing the palette block from 16x16 down to 8x8. The NES still only has 4 separate palettes for tiles though (separate 4 for sprites).
Just to note: Those spikes in Salamander in that video are not sprites. Just tile animation. Also, that whale at the end of the video is also not a sprite. It's a dynamic repositioned BG layer that NES does quite often as well.
04-16-2009, 04:39 AM
philiptwood
Quote:
Would the Jag be worth owning for 10 good games? aside from the 6-7 good ones listed, there's also Powerdrive Rally, Zool 2, Battlemorph and a few others. The Jag's a good console if you give it a chance.
Well it's going to quite a few people giving the Jag a chance from a programmers standpoint... A new flash cartridge "The Skunkboard" is soon to be released, in fact it's just around the corner for release. It's the second release of the USB based flash card for the Jag I was very fortunate to catch the first release. I don't know if it'll be released again, but just to give a heads up it's Windows compatible, it works well in Win Vista for me, you have to manually install the driver which is included with the latest download for the driver. You have get on a waiting list though and Tursi, the guy that's seems to be overseeing the project, will email those on the waiting list. It's seems to be in very high demand for the Jag enthusiast so now is the time to act.
C64 has better sprite per scanline hardware. 12(double pixel though) wide sprites and up to 8 per scanline, has a better ratio than NES's 8 sprites and 8 pixels wide. But the NES has a better color system for the sprites. 4 palettes for the sprites. Only 3 colors like the c64, but the c64 has an additional color limitation that forces 1 original color and the other 2 must be a common/shared color with other sprites (I don't code for c64, my source is the c64 tech thread of programmers). The c64 only has 8 sprite registers, but you can change the registers on scanline interrupts. It's not as nice as hardware multiplexed sprites of the NES and it costs actual CPU time to do it (and the setup/routines) - but it could show more than 64 sprites on screen. NES has a built in sprite DMA. It's fast, but not fast enough to update all 64 sprite entries in Hblank time (there's a single sprite write reg too, but iirc there are some bugs with it possibly during active display - can't remember at the moment).
NES only has 2k of RAM built in. But tons of games use the additional 8k SRAM expansion. Combined 10k is more than enough since the PPU takes care of everything video wise and the game data is on the ROM (which the biggest size is 512k for code). The NES PPU setup is more versatile than the c64 too. The NES has no VRAM for tiles/sprites. That's all on the cart. Be it VRAM or VROM. Most games use VROM (up to 512k - separate from code rom) and add mappers to the address lines. The NES can swap in/out new tiles/sprites faster than any 16bit or 32bit console because of this. The Gameboy dev cart does this to show GB graphics on the NES. The MMC5 chip can actually improve the graphics of the NES by reducing the palette block from 16x16 down to 8x8. The NES still only has 4 separate palettes for tiles though (separate 4 for sprites).
Just to note: Those spikes in Salamander in that video are not sprites. Just tile animation. Also, that whale at the end of the video is also not a sprite. It's a dynamic repositioned BG layer that NES does quite often as well.
From what I've heard and personally seen NES sprites are pretty bad, is this more due to poor programming than the actual hardware then? I can't think of any NES games that have as good sprite use as any of those games in the C64 video (the only thing I saw which was comparable was some of the stuff in the Contra's but that was like the whale boss which means it probably wasn't sprites either). The best use of sprites I can think of off hand on NES is possibly the aeroplane on the 1st stage of GI Joe, the level of sprite flicker is pretty ugly but at an acceptible level there but most of the background is just blackness
Another, more ambitious one is the Dragon Boss from Mega Man 2, but the whole screen is a complete mess of sprite flicker and slowdown, there's no background and very little movement going on so I think this shows the NES in an unflattering manner overall.
What are some of the more impressive NES sprite games? I'm sure there are hoards I'm forgetting but at the moment my memory is failing me unfortunately.
