TVs

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

Incorrect. The signal sent to the TV IS 240p, not 480i. The TV interlaces only when a half a horizontal line difference is introduced to the vertical sync signal. So an interlaced signal generates 262.5 H lines per field, while a console in non-interlaced mode generates 262 H lines per field. That extra .5 H is critical for interlacing as it actually laces the lines of the next field between the lines of the previous field. Without the half line, the next field is drawn directly over top the previous field. These are NTSC figures, of course. PAL has more lines at a slower field rate.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

CRTs are the only ones capable of displaying 240p as 240p. Most HDTVs somehow think they'd be getting a 480i signal and mess up the picture by applying de-interlacing filters and other such nonsens.

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^^^

That's pretty much what I meant. I'm not completely familiar with all the technical details of analog TV signals, so forgive me if my statements are not 100% correct all the time. My point remains the same though, which is that even the best HDTVs will try to deinterlace the signal coming from a Genesis/Mega Drive, even though it is completely unnecessary and undesirable.

My HDTV has one of the best deinterlacers available on the market (a Faroudja DCDi, I specifically chose it with that feature in mind), and it generally does a pretty good job with 2D graphics. Still images look pixelly as they should, while animating sprites get a sort of 2xSaI look, which is really not that bad.
It starts to fall apart though with flickering effects, such as often used for transparency or shadows. The deinterlacer will try to guess what goes in between the frames with and without the effect, and even the best algorithms can't avoid it becoming a horrible horizontally-striped mess.

For my classic consoles, I really don't want any of this. CRTs don't have any of these problems, and present the incoming images exactly as they are supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

I've tested three 4:3 CRT based HDTVs with Mega Drive via a custom made RGB-SCART cable (which doesn't output an additional composite signal, but RGB only). The Philips looked absolutely terrible and disabling all filters didn't help the slightest bit, the Grundig looked kinda okay I guess with colors that looked more like S-Video than RGB. The Samsung looked pretty good actually, but none of them came close to my 80s Nokia TV.

And yeah: any CRTs with 100Hz do indeed cause a similar mess as to what modern HDTVs do.


- The best CRTs are the simple ones without digital picture enhancements.

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QFT.

The less digital filters applied to the image, the better. Philips TVs in particular are notorious for featuring all sorts of redundant filters that are supposedly meant to improve the image, but usually just make a blurry unnatural looking mess out of it. For any kind of computer generated imagery, you'll want as little tampering to the incoming images as possible before they are displayed on the screen. Classic CRT TVs fit this bill perfectly.

Philips made awesome CRTs at least....

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Originally Posted by TmEE

Philips made awesome CRTs at least....

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I don't doubt that at all, but the one HD CRT I tested definitely wasn't a good TV for 240p content.

me loves my 10 year old 28" Philips... and it was really hard to find, CRTs over 21" are rarities here....

Our main TV in our entertainment center is a 28" flat screen CRT Sanyo, ~5 years old I think.

Resolution's not incredible, but it looks good, and it's got component video hook-ups. We only get broadcast television anyway, which is currently hooked up through composite from our digital switchbox. (still looks way better than analog) I think out DVD player and family PC are hooked up through component, and the Wii certainly is. (out gamecube previously was too, luckily we got an earlier model that supported it, oddly the late models removed the component port)

Anyway, it looks great from Atari through 6th-gen (and Wii, whcih isn't high def anyway), and as it's a CRT light guns work great! I think it only supports up to 480i though, we have almost everything set up in 16x9 that will though. (TV's digital box, Wii, PC/DVD -usually, and formerly for the GC for all games that supported a high detail 16x9 mode, like Star Fox adventures)

It also seems pretty energy efficient, inless it's winter it's hard to even tell if it's been on or not.
(for it's size I think it uses less power than out little LCD Phillips, which gets pretty warm)

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Originally Posted by Devil N

My point remains the same though, which is that even the best HDTVs will try to deinterlace the signal coming from a Genesis/Mega Drive, even though it is completely unnecessary and undesirable.

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Ah, yes, that makes more sense. An HDTV trying to deinterlace a signal that's not interlaced WOULD cause a problem. Guess I'm lucky that mine doesn't have that problem.

I'd say Hisense makes good TV's, the picture is great, the screen is flat and the TV is at a monstrous 32 inches (It is widescreen, but it is still big). Feeding it imagery from a Mega Drive via RF gaves pretty good results (May be skewed due to the fact that the RF box has no antennas connected), nothing blends too much (Though it is noticable at times). It also has VGA input, but I have not tested if it can do progressive scanning at whatever resolution, I should get myself a VGA cable and find out. The TV is not at my main house however, my Mum owns it, she only brought it because it was the biggest TV she could get in the price range two years ago.

My main TV for Mega Drive gaming is a 21in TCL TV, the Chinese just keep making awesome high quality products. It may be a dome of a TV, but it does a damn good job with Composite. Only got it because my perants wanted a new bedroom TV before the split and moved house, it replaced a 1980 14in TV (Which only has RF, and yes, I did used to play Mega Drive games on it, the quality is suffering horridly from the age of the TV though, I want it from my sister when the digital cutoff occours to see what true RF display is like), the brand of the TV is Sharp. Oh and yes, it has manual tuning only! Oh how I love that feature, the quality is easy to adjust.

Also, about the statements of the deinterlacing of a progressive signal and so on, I can confirm them all, I have a 50in Plasma at my fathers loungeroom and it thinks it is a good idea to try and deinterlace the signal, there is also some noticable blurring (Tested with Shining Force II, with its portraits) even with the 100hz mode turned off. I am pretty sure the brand is Phillips, but I am not sure, I'll confirm later on today if I remember. I have tested the 240p with a Mega Drive and the Wii (Using homebrew emulators ^.^).

I agree with Tiido though, Phillips makes AWESOME CRT displays, I have a 17in CRT monitor (Currently not being used, sitting next to the TCL TV at the moment) and it is the BEST CRT I have ever seen, with 'blending' effects only just starting to blend in at 1280*1024.

This had to be the most indepth post I have EVER made on the internet.

I've got a 27" phillips made in either 2001 or 2002.
I bought it as a refurb unit from a sears repair center.

It took me about 2 years before I understood the difference between
composite, s-video, and component video which I didn't figure out
untill I bought my first dvd player.

It's starting screw up though.
Sometimes, when I turn it on, the picture becomes scrambled and it
will shut down, but corrects it's self once I turn it back on.

If it dies, I'll figure out how to fix it.
It's got a great picture, especially displaying 240p video from
the genesis.

It can even run in PAL mode.

Glad I'm using a philips RGB monitor (cm8833).These are so handy.

I play my PS3 (including PS2 BC) and 360 on a 24 inch 1080p monitor from Dell, the quality is excellent. Everything older than that is played on my 21 inch flat screen Toshiba CRT from 4 years or so ago.

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Originally Posted by mick_aka

I would guess gamegenie that your TV runs in 100Hz, also making it incompatible with the menacer or indeed any light guns....

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Heh... the Menacer is incompatible with my sense of "decent light gun" :)

I have 2 tvs, an ancient CRT one, and a newer flat one. The only older games that look good on the new one are emulated older games. (I use it as a PC monitor as well). If ancient one should perish, seek out new old tv I must. 'hem. :/

I have a 32" Sony Wega (HD) in my office. It works pretty well with the older consoles, but it doesn't support light gun games, since it has an HD screen. I do have a 27" Sony Wega that is perfect for everything else, but I've yet to move it into my office. I also have an older Sony 27" Trinitron (It needs the tuner chip repaired) that worked perfectly for Saturn light gun games, but the Dreamcast light gun games never worked that well with either of my 27" televisions.

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Originally Posted by Smii

Heh... the Menacer is incompatible with my sense of "decent light gun" :)

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1000% Truth.

Why didn't they just use the light phaser instead? (or could it be used on the genesis?)

Government legislation dictated that any light gun created after 1990 must suck ass.

This was repealed right before the Guncon was released.