The People Responsible for Sega's Problems

Well, the key issue here is that they released two systems at the same time. Saturn was flawed in that it was not compatible to the Mega Drive, and 32X was flawed as it was the 32X - just a technically inferior but extremely expansive add-on. At Xmas '94, a Genesis owner probably would have bought two Super Nintendos instead of one 32X.

They told us for years that cartrdiges are a thing of the past and CDs would be the future. Why would you want a 32X with no games instead of a SegaCD or Saturn ? I remember that at the time 32X came out, I was still trying to persuade my parents to buy a MegaCD which in Europe was released in autumn of '93. For some reason we also only got the MegaCD 2 ? ...I still can't believe it: They asked us to pay more than 600 bucks for something that didn't actually fit with our hardware.

... I am starting to think Sega's decline began with the MD2.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

... I am starting to think Sega's decline began with the MD2.

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Thats a very bold statement. While I wouldn't say that it caused a decline (Cheaper parts would have made it more affordable :) ), it sure as heck helped re-enforce the impression that the Mega Drive games have crappy sound.

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Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster

If only Segata Sanshiro beat the shit out of kids on TV to sell Saturns in the US. That is another area where SoA failed. Their ridiculous Saturn marketing campaign. Seeing Saturn commercials reminded me of max headroom & pauly shore. Two things best left to the bowels of history.

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Don't knock Max, he's awsome. :p

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Originally Posted by TmEE

if you want your MCD games run off something, you will need to have MD included...

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I meant if they included MD compatibility stock on their new console, but left the CD hardware out to keep cost reasonable, but still allowed the CD hardware to be added seperately. (preferably with an interface compatible with the standard MCD, but also allowing the use of a more compact, cheaper module that allowed the new console's CD drive to be used instead)

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

Well, the key issue here is that they released two systems at the same time. Saturn was flawed in that it was not compatible to the Mega Drive, and 32X was flawed as it was the 32X - just a technically inferior but extremely expansive add-on. At Xmas '94, a Genesis owner probably would have bought two Super Nintendos instead of one 32X.

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What did the 32x cost at launch in Europe, in the US it launched at $150. (and the Neptune was to be $200)

And while they were released at about the same time in their respective countries, but releasing the Saturn so early meant next to no games were available for it.

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They told us for years that cartrdiges are a thing of the past and CDs would be the future. Why would you want a 32X with no games instead of a SegaCD or Saturn ? I remember that at the time 32X came out, I was still trying to persuade my parents to buy a MegaCD which in Europe was released in autumn of '93. For some reason we also only got the MegaCD 2 ? ...I still can't believe it: They asked us to pay more than 600 bucks for something that didn't actually fit with our hardware.

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What??? That's double what the Sega CD 1 was launched at in the US, and even the British version was ~$400. The Model 2 reduced the price to $230 at launch (1993), and by fall of '94 it was down to $150. (a little before the 32x launch)

What didn't fit? They never released the MD 2 in Germany? And while the MCD 2 didn't look great with the MD 1, it was far from incompatible. (and it worked a lot better than a MD 2 on an MCD 1 ;) )

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... I am starting to think Sega's decline began with the MD2.

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Well the CD was declining in North America by 1994, in part due to the FMV craze/crash, and Sega's lawsuit over non censorship. (of which Night Trap was a significant part)

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Originally Posted by Flygon

Thats a very bold statement. While I wouldn't say that it caused a decline (Cheaper parts would have made it more affordable :) ), it sure as heck helped re-enforce the impression that the Mega Drive games have crappy sound.

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True. - What I as getting at though, was that MD2 aided the confusion over the Sega hardware line up:

Mega Drive, Mega CD, Mega Drive 2, Mega CD 2, 32X, Saturn

...not to mention CDX and X'eye but also Neptune which was planned to be released in 1995.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

What did the 32x cost at launch in Europe, in the US it launched at $150. (and the Neptune was to be $200)

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450,- if I remember correctly. That's been the price of a brandnew Super Nintendos, with two controllers, a decent AV cable and Super Mario World, and at least one full price game like Super Mario Allstars, Donkey Kong Country or Zelda: A link to the past. And you'd still have some money left.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

And while they were released at about the same time in their respective countries, but releasing the Saturn so early meant next to no games were available for it.

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Yeah, of course, but the same goes for the 32X.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

That's double what the Sega CD 1 was launched at in the US, and even the British version was ~$400. The Model 2 reduced the price to $230 at launch (1993), and by fall of '94 it was down to $150. (a little before the 32x launch)

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Well, you had to pay 600,- for the MegaCD 2. The original MegaCD never was released in Germany.

Anyway, the Super Nintendo did cost DM 299,- and $199 in the states, so $600 for the MegaCD 2 would probably equal $400 at that time.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

And while the MCD 2 didn't look great with the MD 1, it was far from incompatible.

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My point was that they asked you to spend a fortune on something that looked like a terrible mess.

Remember that in Europe the MD2 and MCD2 did have cheap plastic buttons in a bright red color, something that did not get along too well with your awesome looking model #1 Mega Drive.

http://i24.ebayimg.com/06/i/001/41/09/77c7_1.JPG

It's absolutely okay nowadays if you were to to buy a cheap SegaCD 2 to connect it with your model #1 Genesis, but back in 1993 ? - no way you could ask someone to buy a Mega Drive 2 for 200,- to connect with your Mega CD 2 for 600,-. For that money you could have bought a NeoGeo with two arcade sticks and a fair set of games.

What happened with sega during the DC launch? Did they stopped advertising? All I can remember are commercials on tv for sony's PS2. And everybody was talking about playstation. Dreamcast was totally out of the picture.

What they did to nintendo in the early 90's. They got it back from sony.

I blame Sega and their retail channels. Back then I wanted to buy a DC and I couldn't find one in my local shop. Sega was gone. I still wonder did they ever hear of it.

you guys. the key thing that hurt Sega that you all are missing is that Sega despite coming out with multiple systems did not keep support for their systems very long.

It's the discontinuing of the Genesis that ended the Sega CD and 32X. Had Sega not killed off the Genesis or had built the Saturn with backward compatibility to play Genesis games or it's add-ons, consumers would not have became pissed at Sega.

I find it humorous that Sega pissed off gamers 3 times in a row in the US. First they killed off the Genesis short, then they Killed off Saturn shorter, and finally Sega killed off Dreamcast the shortest.

I was smart enough to leave Sega for Sony after they killed off Genesis and it's accessories.

To those who say it's impossible to hold two systems at once. Then how would you explain

NES existence all the way to 1994
Super Nintendo's existed all the way to 1998
PSX existence all the way to 2003
PS2's present existence

I think Sony clearly did a better job than Sega, and they proved my point when they built the PS2 backward compatible with PS1. I remember thinking back when the PS2 launch was announced of this news and thinking had only Sega done this with Saturn in the mid 90s.

Sega created a bad reputation and it started with Saturn.
The people responsible for it, is obviously the people who built Saturn incompatible with Genesis, and wanted it to launch ahead of Sony's PS1.


JAPAN!!!

I *really* don't buy "Sega failed because they killed off the Genesis too soon" or "Sega failed because Saturn didn't have backwards compatibility."

New gamers to the Saturn, didn't give a crap about the previous generation. Do you really think the Genesis was such a smash success because it had SMS compatibility? And why didn't the SNES fail miserably since it *didn't* have backwards compatibility with the NES? Simple. The *majority* of people don't give a crap about the previous generation. Been there, don't that, want something new,shiny,exciting,etc.

It wouldn't be to far out on a limb to say that the initial buyers of the US Saturn already had Genesis systems.

But all of that is irrelevant. The Dreamcast started with a clean slate. Sure, it might have pissed off the *handful* of Saturn owners left, still clinging to the dieing system. But to the mass public, it *was* a fresh start. When the Dreamcast came out, SegaCD and 32x were probably the farthest thing on anyone's mind, if they even knew about them, save for the old timers.

The Dreamcast failed because of two reasons: Some jerk decided he wanted to take the company in a different direction - that software sales was where the money was, not console making, and 2) because Sega failed to take what an awesome second chance and surprising public popularity/support for the system - and push hard with it.

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

New gamers to the Saturn, didn't give a crap about the previous generation.

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Of course they didn't. If they did they would became PlayStation owners like the rest of us during that era who were through with getting dicked by Sega. ;)

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

Do you really think the Genesis was such a smash success because it had SMS compatibility?

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The Genesis was a smash success because it went head on against Nintendo on both their 8-bit and 16-bit platform.

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

And why didn't the SNES fail miserably since it *didn't* have backwards compatibility with the NES? Simple. The *majority* of people don't give a crap about the previous generation. Been there, don't that, want something new,shiny,exciting,etc.

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That's your opinion. There are numerous systems today and yesterday that have native backward compatibility, I wouldn't say it's the main cause of a system success/fail, but it does contributes to the buy value of a new system.

I've seen tons of comments in recent weeks of people complaining that Nintendo removed GBA compatibility from DSi, and that the systems not worth the upgrade from DS/DS Lite because of it, despite the DSi having greater hardware specs, faster processing power, and new features than the previous edition.

In the 32X thread you called me out on having a bias against GBA. I'll admit I don't really care for GBA, I did own a DS Lite but I had no concern on losing GBA compatibility when I traded it in for DSi.

uh . . . what?

I think too myself ohh if we never had 32X life might have been easier for Sega but no they go make it than they don't do anything with it.

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Originally Posted by Youngie

Sega

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Yep.

They had three chances to get something right again, as they did with the Genesis/Mega Drive, and quite honestly it seems like they just put on a blindfold and swung at random three times and until they were out of the game.

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Originally Posted by jetlag

What happened with sega during the DC launch? Did they stopped advertising? All I can remember are commercials on tv for sony's PS2. And everybody was talking about playstation. Dreamcast was totally out of the picture.

What they did to nintendo in the early 90's. They got it back from sony.

I blame Sega and their retail channels. Back then I wanted to buy a DC and I couldn't find one in my local shop. Sega was gone. I still wonder did they ever hear of it.

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I remember the DC commercials quite a bit, mind you I was only arround 10 years old. I'm not sure about at launch, but within the first year I rember quite a bit and the Crazy Taxy disply at Fry's.

And I think Sony had already given back Sega what Sega'd given to Nintendo in '90 with the PSX, not the PS2.

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The Genesis was a smash success because it went head on against Nintendo on both their 8-bit and 16-bit platform.

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In the US, the Genesis was a 'smash success' because Nintendo gave them the opportunity by having a later release date for the SNES. Sega couldn't have done it without the early adapters like myself and others that left the aged NES base for something greener. If Sonic played in the woods and no body was around to see it, would he still be as popular today?

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That's your opinion.

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Well, its more than just my opinion. It isn't just something I felt. It's based on logical assessments, experience, and such. But sure, why not.

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There are numerous systems today and yesterday that have native backward compatibility, I wouldn't say it's the main cause of a system success/fail, but it does contributes to the buy value of a new system.

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True. But that number is preeetty low. There are a few exceptions, like anything in life, but I think they are mostly limited to the computer market.

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I've seen tons of comments in recent weeks of people complaining that Nintendo removed GBA compatibility from DSi, and that the systems not worth the upgrade from DS/DS Lite because of it, despite the DSi having greater hardware specs, faster processing power, and new features than the previous edition.

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You mean you've seen tons of videogame nerds complaining online. Let's put 'tons' in a relative term. Considering the system sold millions, have you seen at least 100,000 posted complaints? Or even 10,000? Or even 1000? I remember "tons" of people getting excited about a new Megaman retro style game coming out for the 360/PS3/Wii. Makes me wonder how much sales they actually got for that game, let alone profit. The influence of popularity or demand, as presented by the internet general and special interests communities, seems to be overly represented/accepted most of the time. Take the 5th root of what you believe or perceive of that amount of 'commotion' and you'll probably get closer to the real number <_<

But I'm getting off track...

Nobody's saying that backwards compatibility isn't nice or neat. But a system should be able to stand on its own merit without it. To be honest, even in GBA and DS situations - if they excluded backwards compatibility it might have lowered the initial release sales a bit - but not really put a dent in overall sales. When I got my GBA on release day, I really didn't buy any GBC carts after that nor play my older carts much at all. Even more so with the DS. My brother bought a NDS for each one of his four girls and they have like -1 GBA carts. My two sons both have NDS systems and none of them play GBA carts nor did they want to. I remember thinking that dropping the GBA support for the DSi was lame, until I was reminded that I don't play my GBA carts as it is.

Guess how many times I played PS1 games on my PS2? Less times than the number of fingers on one hand. Guess how many overall sales the PS2 would have 'lossed' if they had excluded PS1 compatibility. I guess less than 1%.

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In the 32X thread you called me out on having a bias against GBA.

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I called you bias because you thought the Neo Pocket was about equivalent to the GBA. That's like saying the Genesis and SMS pretty much look and sound the same.

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

I *really* don't buy "Sega failed because they killed off the Genesis too soon" or "Sega failed because Saturn didn't have backwards compatibility."

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I agree but I kinda feel that I should mention that I never thought that they failed because of backwards compatibility, although I mentioned backwards compatibility a lot. My point was that if they so desperately wanted to keep the Genesis in the market, they probably should have made Saturn compatible. It would have been the better idea than to release 32x.

Also, as much as I do agree with all your points on backwards compatibility I do however think that it does help with the initial perception and anticipation of a hardware.

I remember that I definitely wanted a Master System, but eventually settled for Mega Drive because I could buy the Power Base Converter. I never bought it during the two or three megadriving years I had but to know I had the option did help a lot to decide which console I would buy.

Same for PS2. When Dreamcast came out, a lot of those that wanted a Dreamcast probably hesitated because they knew that PS2 could also play their PS1 library. In 1998, PlayStation 1 actually had not yet reached its peak in popularity, and Saturn sold almost as good as PS1 in Japan. Metal Gear Solid wasn't out yet and there were no Dual Shock Controllers. But during the following two years, PS1 really took off. It was Sony's equivalent to Sega's 1993/1994.

I agree that backward compatibility isn't something that does determine the success of a hardware (see SNES - and also Dreamcast, which had a fantastic start without being compatible to Saturn) but Saturn being compatible to Mega Drive certainly wouldn't have hurt and it definitely would have been the better idea than to release 32x.

*dontreplytogamegeniedontreplytogamegeniedontreplyt ogamegeniedonteply...ahscrewit*

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Originally Posted by gamegenie

you guys. the key thing that hurt Sega that you all are missing is that Sega despite coming out with multiple systems did not keep support for their systems very long. [...]

I find it humorous that Sega pissed off gamers 3 times in a row in the US. [...]

The people responsible for it, is obviously the people who built Saturn incompatible with Genesis, and wanted it to launch ahead of Sony's PS1.


JAPAN!!!

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- Hm, I think it's possible that you may have discovered a great conspiracy by the Japanese there. Maybe you should contact someone in the press.