The People Responsible for Sega's Problems

Kolibri is ok, I mean it looks nice. But the nearest equivalent I can think of for the Sega CD is Ecco the Dolphin CD, which just blows it out of the water (heh). I mean there's really no comparison.

The load times on most Sega CD games aren't that bad, really only the FMV titles have noticeable loading times. While there are a few good games on the 32X (like, 6 or 7), most of them employ really gross early polygons which just don't look good today. I prefer sprites anyway, so 2D games with CD soundtracks beats crappy polygons any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

First, that they could do the original, unedited levels on SNES shows that it has to have been possible on Jaguar. Id just didn't want to try or didn't think it could be done or something... and then Sculptured Software went and made it work on SNES with Super FX2. :)

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But if they'd been that selective with Development of Jag Doom it might not have even made it to the system before it died... ;) (barring other hypotheticals) id had wanted to include the entire game, but Atari didn't want to exceed a 4 MB game (for cost reasons), maybe they could have compressed more. (but with a 6 MB cart it should have been complete, with complete levels and textures, sound is another issue which I'm not sure about -a Jag CD release would have fixed the music...)

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As for the detail and framerate, sure they're low, but I quickly got used to it. It was high enough for me, the framerate was much better than, say, my three Super FX 1 games, Star Fox, Vortex, and Stunt Race FX... now THOSE I find barely playable thanks to their abysmal framerates. Single sided sprites... true. That's true on 32X too though, as you say. And sure, it's not fullscreen, though the window does take up most of the screen there is a black border on all four sides. I think the positives like the accurate level designs, overworld map between levels, original episode victory texts (only console port at the time with any of those features!), great soundtrack (best of a cartridge version of Doom, unless you prefer Doom 64's 'soundtrack', which is quite cool and fits the mood well but is just atmospheric background sounds, not actual music), etc. make up for that. I mean, yeah, Doom 64 looks way better (I know it's not the same because it's true 3d and has all new levels, but it's similar enough that I think they can be compared), but even so the SNES one is still fun. :)

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I like Star Fox (I didn't even used to notice the framerate, and older emulators that speed it up make it barely playable for me), Vortex is kind of mediocre, Stunt FX is OK... I haven't gotten to play Doom on a real SNES though, SNES 9x/ZSNES seem pretty accurate though (not sure what's up with the weird flickering pixel junk on screen) It was playable, but definitely "felt" choppier to me than Star Fox. I like PC Doom, in DOSBox (haven't tried source ports), I think I like it a good bit more than Quake too, I sometime prefer to set music to SoundBlaster instead of midi as well, I like the FM synth sound. (some find it similar to 32x, I find it substancially better -though the Geneiss music could have been superior -GEMS...)

I do like the map feather a lot in the SNES version, having the map rotate is much more intuitive than the rotarting pointer of other versions. (disorienting for me)

Are you sure Doom 64 is "full 3D" not still using a raycasting engine? I haven't scrutinized the maps closely enough to tell if it breached the limits of the Doom engine, the viewing angle is still restricted. (but so was quake by default -without holding down the look button; in D64's case it might be due to th euse of sprites, to aviod odd angles, that and if they didn't apply derspective correction to textures) The textures and sprites are obvously more detailed (higher res and color) and filtered, but that has nothing to do with it being "true 3d."

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Originally Posted by jerry coeurl

The load times on most Sega CD games aren't that bad, really only the FMV titles have noticeable loading times. While there are a few good games on the 32X (like, 6 or 7), most of them employ really gross early polygons which just don't look good today. I prefer sprites anyway, so 2D games with CD soundtracks beats crappy polygons any day of the week.

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Hmm, I don't think FMV games should have any more load times than others, streaming video doesn't have to load anything (well, besides a player+codec if one is used).

I like those simple polygonal games like Shadow Squadron (or Star Fox, X-Wing, etc), but the lower poly count+shorter draw distance ones puting emphesis on textures are a bit ugly, like Metal Head. (which would have been more impressive at the time, like a lot of the early, textured 3D)

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Are you sure Doom 64 is "full 3D" not still using a raycasting engine? I haven't scrutinized the maps closely enough to tell if it breached the limits of the Doom engine, the viewing angle is still restricted. (but so was quake by default -without holding down the look button; in D64's case it might be due to th euse of sprites, to aviod odd angles, that and if they didn't apply derspective correction to textures) The textures and sprites are obvously more detailed (higher res and color) and filtered, but that has nothing to do with it being "true 3d."

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Yes, Doom64 was "true 3D". That allowed them to make levels where areas were above or below other areas, something the original Doom didn't allow. Doom64 used a completely different renderer from any other version. However, they kept the objects as sprites (flat 2D) in order to keep the speed high, even when you had tons of enemies onscreen. They thought about making the objects "true 3D" as well, but certain levels got too slow as there were too many bad-guys onscreen at once for 3D objects.

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but for the 32X argument I disagree. You say 32x blows because there is no games. right that's bright. of course since support was canceled days after the launch. but when I start playing the MCD, I just dislike the loading times, the graphics suck. While with the 32X, the potential to rival with the SNES was there. Kolibri rocks. all 32x games are unfinished so you can't really say the 32x sucks. I have tried many 32x games and they all rock compared to MCD games even though they are unfinished.

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Read what you typed again.

he potential to rival with the SNES was there.

That sounds terrible but most of the 32X ports were upgraded Genesis ports.
-This how the 32X was suppose to be:

-This game looks much better than it's 16-Bit counterparts.
-The sounds is much improved.
-The characters are about 30% bigger.
-The game is even faster than the Genesis version by alot.

-This is how most games turned out on the 32X:

It looks like the SNES version now.

The only 32X game that wasn't finished was Doom. Alot of the other games didn't come close to using the full power of the 32X. And Kolibri made me yawn when I played it even though it looks good.

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

Read what you typed again.

he potential to rival with the SNES was there.

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I read it again :). that's my point. but let's rephrase it

what history tweak would most likely saved Sega and beat the SNES

Option #1
Genesis MegaCD. History tweak no 32X.

Option #2
Genesis MD I (NO model II) + 32X. History tweak: 32X mushroom developped around 1992. No mega cd at all and full game support for the 32X for 2d gaming. No Saturn needed. A Japaneese Model I + a 32X would have beaten the SNES and N64. Dreamcast would be developped around 1997.

who would have won to reach the goal of beating the SNES? #2 is my guess course. History proves the point. the MegaCD failed before the 32x came. Was too pricey. CDs were not cheap enough.

the MegaCD has lots of technical merits, but it killed Sega along IMO with the Genesis Model II. the Model I with 32x would have beaten the crap out of the SNES.
There is one hell good history post of the MegaCD on http://www.eidolons-inn.net

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Hmm, I don't think FMV games should have any more load times than others, streaming video doesn't have to load anything (well, besides a player+codec if one is used).

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This first... as for Sega CD load times, for the most part I'd say that they're really not that bad. The only game that I can think of where the loading actually annoyed me was Dark Wizard, where there was a load time before every battle if you turned on the animated fights, but you can just disable them and just stay on the main map instead, and that gets rid of the problem. Not as cool looking, sure, but worth it to get rid of the annoying loading. But overall, yeah, Sega CD games, FMV or no, usually don't have loading times that are that bad... though of course they're longer than cart-game loading times, so if a game is on both cart and CD the CD version might not always be better, depending on what was added. Oh, and I haven't played stuff like Mortal Kombat for Sega CD. Fighting games often seem to have some of the worst loading problems in 16 and 32-bit CD-based consoles.

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I like those simple polygonal games like Shadow Squadron (or Star Fox, X-Wing, etc), but the lower poly count+shorter draw distance ones puting emphesis on textures are a bit ugly, like Metal Head. (which would have been more impressive at the time, like a lot of the early, textured 3D)

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Metal Head does look kind of impressive though, with the actual textured polygons... and it is faster if you press the Run button you know. :) It's not perfect for sure, it'd be nice with saving and the fact that it's a mech game is kind of wasted (your main gun is one one arm and special weapon on the other... means that you're mostly just shooting from one side of the screen, like with a normal FPS. Kind of bland.). It's nowhere near as good as Battlecorps on Sega CD, that's for sure... that game's amazing. Still, it's a decent game that can be fun to play. Shadow Squadron's better though of course, probably the 32X's best game... and as for X-Wing, well, yeah, TIE Fighter (its sequel) is in my opinion the best space combat game ever, and a game that has a permanent place in my top five PC games of all time. Utterly amazing game, I really couldn't say enough great things about that game. It's a real space sim, not just an arcadey shooter like Shadow Squadron or Star Wars Arcade or the Rogue Squadron series... I like those kinds of games too, but I like TIE Fighter even more. The depth does make it better.

If only there were a game with Rogue Squadron III's graphics and TIE Fighter's gameplay...


Anyway, to Doom. I just played five or six levels of SNES Doom (on the actual system, then one level in emulation for comparison), a few more comments...

+When you finish a level and go to the next one, you start with the same weapons, ammo, armor, and health you finished the previous one with. When you die and get sent back to the beginning of the level, though, you start with the same weapons, ammo, and armor that you entered the level with, but your health gets reset to 100. This is good because if you entered a level without much health, your health gets increased up to 100. Overall that's going to be more helpful than not.

-It's too easy to get stuck on walls. Kind of annoying.

+It reminded me of one other thing removed from the Jaguar version and all of the ports that include its levels (in those levels at least) -- the parts with no lights. Jaguar Doom and its ports gets rid of those, right, so the whole game is bright... that's pretty lame. Having to creep around in the dark at times or navigate just with the map is a great part of the game, and it is present as it should be on SNES.

+I know the enemy sprites are small and very blocky in the distance, but they really aren't that hard to see. See anything moving in the background? It's an enemy, shoot at it! :)

-Remembering some more things from the Doom Version Comparison FAQ, it reminded me that some later levels in SNES Doom don't have their original PC music but re-use tracks from earlier levels in the game. Another space-saving measure obviously.

+To help make up for the low framerate, you're given a LOT of leeway when it comes to hitting enemies. You don't need to actually directly hit them a lot of the time, just being close is good enough. This is great, otherwise the game would be much more difficult...

Overall, it's a quite good game.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

But if they'd been that selective with Development of Jag Doom it might not have even made it to the system before it died... ;) (barring other hypotheticals) id had wanted to include the entire game, but Atari didn't want to exceed a 4 MB game (for cost reasons), maybe they could have compressed more. (but with a 6 MB cart it should have been complete, with complete levels and textures, sound is another issue which I'm not sure about -a Jag CD release would have fixed the music...)

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Cart limitations were why they redesigned the levels? Makes sense. I thought I'd heard it was to try to get the game running faster, though... but anyway, either way it is too bad that the CD-based ports also used those levels. I know that some of those versions also had big speed problems, but that was obviously poor programming, the 3DO and Saturn really should have been able to handle fine versions of Doom...

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I like Star Fox (I didn't even used to notice the framerate, and older emulators that speed it up make it barely playable for me), Vortex is kind of mediocre, Stunt FX is OK... I haven't gotten to play Doom on a real SNES though, SNES 9x/ZSNES seem pretty accurate though (not sure what's up with the weird flickering pixel junk on screen) It was playable, but definitely "felt" choppier to me than Star Fox. I like PC Doom, in DOSBox (haven't tried source ports), I think I like it a good bit more than Quake too, I sometime prefer to set music to SoundBlaster instead of midi as well, I like the FM synth sound. (some find it similar to 32x, I find it substancially better -though the Geneiss music could have been superior -GEMS...)

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Emulators, or ZSNES at least, overclock the Super FX, though, to make games run smoother. As a result SNES Doom in ZSNES runs noticeably faster than the actual game does, just like all Super FX games. Seriously, compare the Star Fox cart to the emulated game in ZSNES... there's a very noticeable difference, like with all Super FX games.

At times it might be a bit choppy, a problem which is compounded with the sticky walls I mentioned above (getting stuck to the walls when you're trying to turn a corner is irritating), but oh well... considering the hardware, it's amazing that it's as good as it is. And it is perfectly playable, I beat the game on the actual hardware after all, and I'm not that great at FPSes in general. :) Really though, to get a good sense of the game's actual speed you have to play the actual cart.

I mean, in ZSNES Star Fox, Vortex, and Stunt Race FX are actually playable! On the SNES, though, I find the single-digit framerates those games have to be a real problem, and I don't mind low framerates very much most of the time... Vortex was just too ambitious for the system, it's a very interesting game which just tried to do more than the SNES could handle, even with Super FX. It's far too hard as a result, on the actual system I can't beat the first level. Awesome concept though...

Stunt Race FX and Star Fox you can eventually get used to, but the lack of a targeting cursor in Star Fox is a crippling flaw, and even if you get used to them the very low framerates are annoying. For Stunt Race FX the SNES has lots of great racing games which don't use polygons, I'd much rather just play one of those instead. Similarly why should I play Star Fox when I could just play Star Fox 64, which is similar but far better...

As I said, I find Doom more playable on the actual SNES than those three.

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I do like the map feather a lot in the SNES version, having the map rotate is much more intuitive than the rotarting pointer of other versions. (disorienting for me)

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Yeah, the rotating (Mode 7) map is pretty cool, for sure.

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Are you sure Doom 64 is "full 3D" not still using a raycasting engine? I haven't scrutinized the maps closely enough to tell if it breached the limits of the Doom engine, the viewing angle is still restricted. (but so was quake by default -without holding down the look button; in D64's case it might be due to th euse of sprites, to aviod odd angles, that and if they didn't apply derspective correction to textures) The textures and sprites are obvously more detailed (higher res and color) and filtered, but that has nothing to do with it being "true 3d."

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

Yes, Doom64 was "true 3D". That allowed them to make levels where areas were above or below other areas, something the original Doom didn't allow. Doom64 used a completely different renderer from any other version. However, they kept the objects as sprites (flat 2D) in order to keep the speed high, even when you had tons of enemies onscreen. They thought about making the objects "true 3D" as well, but certain levels got too slow as there were too many bad-guys onscreen at once for 3D objects.

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Yeah, I'd highly recommend that anyone who likes Doom at all try to find a copy of Doom 64 and play it! The graphics are beautiful, easily the best of any console version of a classic Doom game. The levels are all new and exclusive to the game, not just levels ported from a PC game. There are areas with multiple terrain layers, as you say, thanks to using real 3d. There are more special effects -- this game looks good. There are MANY areas where enemies spawn when you hit certain points; this makes the game feel more modern and dynamic. The music is just the 'creepy background sounds' as I said, but it fits well and helps set the atmosphere. It is a pretty hard game though on the default difficulty, I think I'm at only about the fifth level... oh, and it has no multiplayer and the load system is kind of odd -- you select "Password" from the main menu to load a game, but if your memory card is in it'll go to the memory card load file screen. Then you have to press C-left and C-right together to actually load the file. Um, yeah, kind of weird, but oh well, it works...

SNES Doom is okay. It's playable. I mainly like it for the sheer novelty of playing an fps on the SNES. The framerate doesn't bother me as much as the lag in the controls and lack of a save feature. The fact that you have to start from the beginning every time discourages me from bothering.

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Originally Posted by Mordan

I read it again :). that's my point. but let's rephrase it

what history tweak would most likely saved Sega and beat the SNES

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Well, in terms of software rendered 2D, the 32x struggles to compete with the SNES, but anything else it's goint to be better at, even comparing Super FX games. (polygons, texture mapping, scaling, higher resolution, higher color in 15-bit color mode, limited by framebuffer size, but still higher than SNES resolution at that)
The 32x isn't that comperable to a standard game console (other than the Genesis portions), it's more like a PC, software manipulated bitmapped display. (except PCs had a lot more ram)

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who would have won to reach the goal of beating the SNES? #2 is my guess course. History proves the point. the MegaCD failed before the 32x came. Was too pricey. CDs were not cheap enough.

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Perhaps that's what would have happened if the intent of MCD had been different, but they were following NEC's CD move, both to compete and to test the waters with CDs as a media. (a cart-based add-on would be more in line with beating the SNES)

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Option #2
Genesis MD I (NO model II) + 32X. History tweak: 32X mushroom developped around 1992. No mega cd at all and full game support for the 32X for 2d gaming. No Saturn needed. A Japaneese Model I + a 32X would have beaten the SNES and N64. Dreamcast would be developped around 1997.

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Why no model 2? I'd say go with the model 2, but without the crappy audio mixing circuitry and never use the crappy Samsung video encoder. Woud would have been just as bad if they'd stuck with the VA7 model 1. There's nothing wrong with the cost reducing redesign IMO, perhaps they could have made it such that it was more similarly shaped to fit the PBC on it. Adding the new AV jack with streo didn't hurt either other than compatibility with the older one (but would have been nice if they'd been thinking ahead and used a jack with enough pins for future expansion, enough to support S-video at least, maybe even PbPr component video and a pin to select VGA as well -for the RGB signals)

And... Woah, OK, umm, no I don;t think that it would be able to be Sega's manstay console for the 5th gen, but I do thing something like that may have proven more popular than Sega CD. Firtly, it would be different from 32x, if wer're talking ~1992 here, the existing 32x is way ahead tech wise, the SH2 didn't have first silicon manufactued until fall of 1993, SDRAM would have been unavailable or extremely expensive: However, if we're just talking about an ambiguous, hypothetical cart-based add-on, there's plenty of good options, for starters we have you're own comment:

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the MegaCD has lots of technical merits, but it killed Sega along IMO with the Genesis Model II. the Model I with 32x would have beaten the crap out of the SNES.

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The Sega CD hardware is pretty comprehensive, and thus could still have been pretty useful in an expansion unit with a 32x like form factor, the flexible scaling+rotation ASIC, 768 kB of DRAM, 12.5 MHz 68000, and 8-channel Ricoh PCM chip. All great regardless of the CD drive. (probably in the 32x's price range, if not lower) One big help would be adding a simple VDP for a bitmap display the ASIC can work with (tomaitheous's suggestion for Sega CD), should be pretty cheap, maybe even incomporated into into the ASIC. (removing the color and bandwidth limitations of the Genesis VDP) I did bring this up before alreday.

Anything 3D would be pretty limited still though, there might have been more powerful and affordable CPUs available in '92/93 (maybe an ARM processor, don't get much more bare bones than the ARM60 the one 3DO uses), or if there was anything like the DSP they used for SVP available at the time. Still, you could do some basic 3D (and the ASIC can be used for texture mapping), not really a huge point anyway, as I said it would never be braving the 5th gen market alone. (leave that for Sega's REAL nextgen console)

Really though, add-ons complicate things, if there was just the Genesis/MD, and Sega just focused on a full successor, it would have been simpler (and less limiting) to make such a design backwards compatible (still the dual genesis VDP thing Chilly Willy Suggested could be the way to go, but none of the Sega CD hardware to wory about), and have it out just after the Genesis peaks in popularity, like late 1994 (like Saturn in Japan and 32x)

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Metal Head does look kind of impressive though, with the actual textured polygons... and it is faster if you press the Run button you know. :) It's not perfect for sure, it'd be nice with saving and the fact that it's a mech game is kind of wasted (your main gun is one one arm and special weapon on the other... means that you're mostly just shooting from one side of the screen, like with a normal FPS.

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I could have done without the voice acting though, it's an OK game, I've played it a bit, kind of bland, but OK. Yeah, I know about the running. ;) (and the alternate camera angles)

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TIE Fighter (its sequel) is in my opinion the best space combat game ever, and a game that has a permanent place in my top five PC games of all time. Utterly amazing game, I really couldn't say enough great things about that game. It's a real space sim, not just an arcadey shooter like Shadow Squadron or Star Wars Arcade or the Rogue Squadron series... I like those kinds of games too, but I like TIE Fighter even more. The depth does make it better.

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I used to only have Tie 95, "upgraded" win9x port usning the XvT engine, fully textures... I don't care for the asthetic change so much, but more importantly, they replaced the dynamic midi with looping redbook audio of a compiled Jon Williams score... (Redbook worked well on XvT and AWA with dynamic selection, but stupid loopin audio replacing the original tracks in X-Wing and Tie 95....) The DOS CD editions are best.

I'm not sure if its the best, I need to try X-Wing Vs. Tie Fighter: Balance of Power (some say it's the best in the series, even better than Tie Fighter) Wing Commander III/IV and the Frespace games too.

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If only there were a game with Rogue Squadron III's graphics and TIE Fighter's gameplay...

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Not Tie Fighter, but there's a mode for far updated graphics for A-Wing Alliance, new models, same engine. (game engine supported much higer detail than it ever used) And there's the Win95 version, but as I said, I don't care for it.

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3DO and Saturn really should have been able to handle fine versions of Doom...

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IDK about 3DO, the CPU isn't that powerful and Doom requires software rendering, at least for the ray casting, 3DO has hardware support for affine mapping, but the GPU cotends for bust time with the CPU. (still probably faster than giving the CPU 100% of the bus with all software rendering) Saturn for sure though.

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Emulators, or ZSNES at least, overclock the Super FX, though, to make games run smoother. As a result SNES Doom in ZSNES runs noticeably faster than the actual game does, just like all Super FX games. Seriously, compare the Star Fox cart to the emulated game in ZSNES... there's a very noticeable difference, like with all Super FX games.

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I haven't noticed that on any of the newerst releases (5.x), SNES 9x v4.1 sped things up horribly, the level 1 opening cutscene didn't even get to say "prepare for launch." Maybe it doesn't slow down like on real hardware, but I find the playability similar for both. (star fox 2 is definitely smoother though) I tend to use SNES 9x more often now because ZSNS takes for ever to load on vista...

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Similarly why should I play Star Fox when I could just play Star Fox 64, which is similar but far better...

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I like SF64, but I actually prefer the original, I didn't used to, and I used to find SF a lot harder, but I thnik it's my favorite in th eseries, except maybe SF2.

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Yeah, the rotating (Mode 7) map is pretty cool, for sure.

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Not positive it's mode 7, coud just as easily be software rotation by the GSU-2.

32X NBA Jam TE > NBA Jam CD

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Originally Posted by PimpUigi

32X NBA Jam TE > NBA Jam CD

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Well yeah, but the Genesis version of either games is better anyway. Who cares about bobbleheads?

CRAB PEOPLE! CRAB PEOPLE!

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Originally Posted by Iron Lizard

CRAB PEOPLE! CRAB PEOPLE!

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http://editthis.info/images/superdic...CrabPeople.jpg

They're blocking the exit! we'll all be trapped in this thread forever!

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Originally Posted by jerry coeurl

Well yeah, but the Genesis version of either games is better anyway. Who cares about bobbleheads?

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The 32X version of TE is way better than the Genesis or SNES version in all categories.
But the Genesis version of vanilla NBA Jam is the best, and the best Jam too.
No reason to waste time with TE really.

Here's a question to all the tech heads? What was the purpose of putting another 16-Bit processor in SCD rather than using another VDP chip?

I think the highly technical reason is: because its cool.

And 16+16 = 32bit Right, right??

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

Here's a question to all the tech heads? What was the purpose of putting another 16-Bit processor in SCD rather than using another VDP chip?

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You can run the game on the faster 68000, and use the slower one to play music and sounds and do IO. It's very much the same with the 32X, just with a completely different CPU, not just a faster one.

Not sure why they didn't include another VDP for improved video out. That would have made the SCD a real force to reckon with. I guess they figured it was expensive enough as it was.

Fair enuff but what is the best performing SCD compared to same PCECD game.

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

Here's a question to all the tech heads? What was the purpose of putting another 16-Bit processor in SCD rather than using another VDP chip?

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That was a key point in the discussion this thread:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...t=3402&page=10

However, I think one major thing for leaving an added VDP out is the limitations of the axpansion port, YS isn't present (the pin used for video overlay, not sure if that's on the cart port either though), and the video signals are not present on the connector either. (but are definitely present on the cart slot) All that would be available for mixing would be the analog video signals from the AV port, and I think you need more than that. (I'm not sure exactly how the 32x does it)
It might have been better if the expansion connector had just been an auxilliary cartridge connector, with all of that connectiveity and address space. (again, I'm not sure if YS is on the cart connector) having that layout would have facilitated using only the Genesis CPU as well I beleive. (all the RAM available as a single bank)

I'm sure one of the real tech guys can shed more light on this.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Venture

I think the highly technical reason is: because its cool.

And 16+16 = 32bit Right, right??

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No... :lol: Just no.... The only ones to actually "add bitness together" in marketing was SNK with the "24-bit" Neo-Geo (8+16=24; though the 68k does have a 24-bit address bus, that's not what they're referring to)
Even Atari, with the Jaguar, wasn't making that claim; there's was more like the TG-16 being 16-bit. (the blitter and object processor do perform 64-bit operations, connected to the 64-bit main bus, but the other processors are either connected to 32 or 16-bits of that main bus -only the 68k would be an actual 16-bit procesor though -ALU wise)

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

That was a key point in the discussion this thread:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...t=3402&page=10

However, I think one major thing for leaving an added VDP out is the limitations of the axpansion port, YS isn't present (the pin used for video overlay, not sure if that's on the cart port either though), and the video signals are not present on the connector either. (but are definitely present on the cart slot) All that would be available for mixing would be the analog video signals from the AV port, and I think you need more than that. (I'm not sure exactly how the 32x does it)
It might have been better if the expansion connector had just been an auxilliary cartridge connector, with all of that connectiveity and address space. (again, I'm not sure if YS is on the cart connector) having that layout would have facilitated using only the Genesis CPU as well I beleive. (all the RAM available as a single bank)

I'm sure one of the real tech guys can shed more light on this.

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YS is on the cart port, and it's probably the main reason why the 32X has video and the CD doesn't. The YS signal is needed to determine when the Genesis VDP is outputting graphics (as opposed to just the background color). That's not on the expansion port, so if the CD wanted to mix video, it would need to connect to the cart port as well. That was a serious flub, not putting YS on the expansion port.

The 32X just mixes the analog RGB out from the back of the Genesis with its own analog RGB, so that wasn't an issue for the CD.

If the expansion port had the (unused) VDP pixel bus, woult you still need YS to display any kind of upgraded video derived from that output form the Genesis VDP? (like for your hypothetical suggestion for combining pixels along with a RAMDAC and/or matching 2 genesis VDPs)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

If the expansion port had the (unused) VDP pixel bus, woult you still need YS to display any kind of upgraded video derived from that output form the Genesis VDP? (like for your hypothetical suggestion for combining pixels along with a RAMDAC and/or matching 2 genesis VDPs)

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Yes. YS is how you tell what is not background pixels, and what is.

It's all my fault.

*Answering original post*

Interesting question, i will always love sega, above many hardware existing companies, i think that the current sega situation comes from many factors. Sega is a quality company, and has always been, it has the right reputation and just needs the right moves, the sonic brand has no equal along with other jewels, it is a matter of time, if sega ever does become extint i might state in from that very moment that this world is just trash, quality must prevail.

Thought these US sales numbers might be of interest.
They're from some long article on Video Game Rivalry.
Mostly talks about PlayStation 2 though.


Sega Genesis - US Hardware & Software Sales Revenue in millions of dollars (inlcuding Sega CD, and Sega 32X)
Not inlcuding Sega Nomad, Sega CDX, JVC X'Eye, or the Genesis 3
1989 - $182
1990 - $280
1991 - $586
1992 - $1,151
1993 - $1,938
1994 - $1,812 (end of 16 bit era Total - $5,949)
1995 - $812
1996 - $294
1997 - $180
Total - $7,235

vs.

Super NES - US Hardware & Software Sales Revenue in millions of dollars
1991 - $560
1992 - $1,733
1993 - $1,890
1994 - $1,471 (end of 16 bit era Total - $5,654)
1995 - $823
1996 - $514
1997 - $243
1998 - $137
1999 - $20
Total - $7,391



These numbers pretty much prove that Sega was ahead in the US market in dollars until the end of 1997, when the Sega Genesis model 2, and new software could no longer be found in American stores.

Especially considering they're making more money, while SNES costs more, so Nintendo would certainly be making more money if they were selling more units, this also pretty much proves that the Genesis was selling more units in NA until it's discontinuation.

Whats the sourse for those figures?
The CD sales would inflate things a bit due to the relatively high price (granted, dumped quite a bit 1994 onward, so stock clearance sales would be less), but considering there were only only ~2.5 million sold in the US (supposedly), it still wouldn't be that big of a contribution. (maybe ~$600 million for US) And no Game Gear included I assume.

So, assuming those are accurate figures, subtracting CD sales still puts it close to SNES, and given the signifcantly lower price, that would point to higher sales for Genesis still.

Now, those should be revenue figures, not profit, so, of course, that won't express when Sega was making/losing money. (but I don't think you were claiming that)


Also, whay would the Model 2 be absent from stores by 1997? Majesco was still producing it then, plus some stores would still probably be selling surpluss stock and the Genesis 3 wasn't released until 1998 I beleive.

By the end of 1997 I'm sure Majesco had switched to the Genesis 3, hadn't they?

The source shows 0 for 1998 and 1999, implying it was still selling, but didn't make 1 million dollars for the year total.
Same for the year 2000 for SNES

Does it really matter which system sold more?

Sure does.

IGN says console wars are determined by sales numbers.

Also, most articles write Sega's market share at the end of 1994 was only 35%
Most people in the US read that as the US Genesis market share was at 35%

Quite the contrary.

Also, most articles write the SNES as losing the US in 1992, and winning it later starting in 1994...again not true for the US.
This data lets us prove that.


If only Mega Drive had actually managed to penetrate Japan's market as well as it did with the US and EU...

How did it sell compared to the SNES in Europe. I heard the SNES didn't do well in the UK, but dominated in Germany.

Hmm, also just realized you stopped at 1995 for both, but SNES was still 's main system 'till 1996 with the N64 being released. (plus the introduction being over a year later, granted some of that time Sega had to fight to get established in the market, so a straight comparison is tricky)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PimpUigi

Sure does.

IGN says console wars are determined by sales numbers.

Also, most articles write Sega's market share at the end of 1994 was only 35%
Most people in the US read that as the US Genesis market share was at 35%

Quite the contrary.

Also, most articles write the SNES as losing the US in 1992, and winning it later starting in 1994...again not true for the US.
This data lets us prove that.

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Not true in both instances as the SNES had a lead in 1992. Heh...

Quote:

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If only Mega Drive had actually managed to penetrate Japan's market as well as it did with the US and EU...

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Well MD had been Sega's most successful console up to that point, seemling getting a leg up every generation (SG-100 sold poorly, Mk.III/SMS wasn't great, but better than SG-1000 at least, and MD was a respectable 3rd behing NEC, Saturn was a really stark jump in popularity)

I stopped at 1995 and called it the end of the 16-bit era because 32X came out to be the first 32 bit system, starting that period in games.
1995 also saw the seriously sharp decline in revenue for 16 bit, the release of the Saturn and PSX.

So I see it as the fair place to stop and say this was the end of the 16 bit era.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PimpUigi

By the end of 1997 I'm sure Majesco had switched to the Genesis 3, hadn't they?

The source shows 0 for 1998 and 1999, implying it was still selling, but didn't make 1 million dollars for the year total.
Same for the year 2000 for SNES

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Here's what the SegaBase has to say on the Genesis 3... I know his accuracy isn't perfect, but it's generally pretty good. If it says "Zero" for 1998 Genesis profits for Sega, well, either it's wrong or Sega was making nothing and Majesco all of the profits... because 1998 was the year that Majesco sold the Genesis 3 in, not 1997, and it sold pretty well.

http://www.eidolons-inn.net/tiki-ind...ase+Genesis+p3

Quote:

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In late 1997, a New Jersey based company named Majesco Sales approaced Sega with the idea of refloating the Genesis as a low-budget alternative system to the higher-priced Sony PlayStation and Nintendo N64 in the U.S. market. Majesco felt that there was still enough value left in Sega's name to make a go at it, and it offered to handle everything it could - marketing, distribution, sales, and so on. In exchange, Sega would receive royalties on every piece of hardware or software that Majesco sold. It did not take long for Sega to assent; after all, it was still sitting on warehouses full of unsold Genesis inventory and needed to move them any way it could. Due to a shortage of consoles, Sega went ahead and produced for Majesco what would be the very last iteration of the Genesis.

The Genesis 3 was released to little fanfare in early 1998. It was a decidedly no-frills version of the console that had originally brought about the 16-bit revolution a full decade earlier. Gone were the sidecar expansion bus (for Sega CD) and Z80 processor (creating some minor incompatability problems). The new system was a tightly integrated box about the size of a man's outstretched hand and resembled a cross between an oversize hockey puck and a space-age portable CD player. The original asking price was US$50 - a far cry from the original 1989 U.S. launch price of $190 and only half that of the system's last offical price tag of US$100 back in 1996. Along with it came the first new Genesis game in three years - Frogger, a perfect port of Konami's original 1981 arcade hit which Sega had vended in the U.S. and was now owned by Hasbro Interactive. It would be the last officially licensed title ever released for the console. The re-emergence of the Genesis after an enforced absence of two years also brought about a brief revival of the first console war. Nintendo had also been trying to clear its back inventory of SNES stocks, having produced its own budget version of the SNES in 1997 and filling the shelves of any willing retailer with excess SNES inventory. Once Majesco horned in on the action with its US$50 Genesis 3 console, Nintendo matched its price. Majesco then dropped the price of the Genesis 3 to US$40 and again to US$30, with Nintendo matching them dollar-for-dollar every step of the way. Software prices for both systems remained stagnant, ranging anywhere from US$10 to US$25 per title. By this time 16-bit sales only accounted for 10% of the total U.S. console market, but it was a brisk and fiercely fought share. "I think you may see some sharpening of the SNES price in the holidays," said Nintendo vice president George Harrison. "It's the best kept secret in the industry," noted Majesco's Morris Sutton. "Retailers have been making a lot of money on 16-bit." Majesco would wind up selling between 1 and 2 million Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 consoles, along with 10 million or so Genesis cartridges for fiscal year 1998. In comparison, Nintendo would only sell 1 million SNES consoles and 6 million SNES carts. As with the American Civil War, the rebels would win the last battle - if not the war itself.

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We now know that Majesco actually did sell some Genesis 2 systems as well as Genesis 3, with the smaller, no-Sega CD-or-32X motherboard in them, so it's possible they did start selling systems in 1997, not 1998... and that "one or two million" number sure looks like an estimate. I thought I remember seeing something more definitive sometime, but can't find anything... but the Genesis 3 definitely sold. It'd probably show up more in Majesco's numbers than Sega's... oh, and Sega itself did stop selling/making Genesis stuff in 1997, so that would explain why those numbers end in that year, even though the system's lifespan didn't. It obviously doesn't include Majesco.

Has anyone posted a jokingly douchebag post like "The NiGHTS fanbase"?

Or even "NinMicroSega"?


It seems like I'd expect responses like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NinMicroSega

Has anyone posted a jokingly douchebag post like "The NiGHTS fanbase"?

Or even "NinMicroSega"?


It seems like I'd expect responses like that.

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If I were you, I would sooner expect:

Quote:

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"You're a Nintendork from the playground battlefields of 1990, who's come here to ridicule us. Showing up in your fancy time machine, talking about 'cool aliens' and 'dreams' and whatnot.

Why don't you take your stupid time machine and go back in time to acquire a pet dinosaur, & leave us in peace! Call it yoshi if you want to satisfy your sick Mario fetishes for all we care, just do it elsewhere!

YOU CAN'T FOOL ME NINMICROSONY! I HAVE SEEN YOUR DEVIOUS PLANS LAID OUT IN DETAILED DOCUMENTS! RAWR!"

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'Cheeky bastardy' is in abundance on this forum, raw and untempered. Take it with a grain of salt. :p

^I like that response. Thanks!

Genesis: 19 millions
European Mega Drive: 9 millions
Japanese Mega Drive: 3.58 millions
Majesco's sales: 2 millions
Nomad: 1 million
Brazil: 2 million

Total 36.58 Million

I've located all the sources for these.
All except for one.

I can't find a source for the European Mega Drive 9 Million number.

The closest I got was some wannabe Wiki claiming 13 million for EU+AU+JP with no sources, and no one who wants to give any.
They also listed the Genesis as 14 Million, and had different worldwide sales on each page.

Can someone help me find the source for Europe's sales data?

9 million for EU is also the rough figure Zebbe has mentioned a couple times iirc. (along with ~8 million for SNES)

Could you list your sourses please? It would be great to have refrences available for this.

http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/g...Videogames.pdf - Revenue data

http://www.gamezine.co.uk/news/forma...d-$1284900.htm - Japanese Mega Drive

http://gamehall.uol.com.br/site/a-hi...do-mega-drive/ - Brazil Mega Drive, Genesis 3 (and it says something like over 35 Million world wide)

http://www.gamepro.com/article/featu...s-of-all-time/ - Nomad

http://www.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/segavid/sega1997.htm - NA Genesis

People on other forums have mentioned 9 million for Europe.
I just wish I could find their source, so this would be fully pieced together already.

Also from this data, I noticed...

NA Genesis - 19 Million
Brazil Mega Drive - 2 Million
Genesis Nomad - 1 Million
Majesco Genesis- 2 Million
Total N&S America - 24 Million

SNES N&S America - 23.35 Million

From what I can recall of my own search into UK sales figures

Mega Drive sold ~3 million in the UK
SNES sold ~1.1 million
Master System sold ~1.7 million
NES sold ~1.4 Million

Most of the figures came from old magazines and online newspaper articles.