Stale Bread

Okay, so we all know all First/Third person shooters are stale and getting moldier every time another is released. I am tired of killing Nazis and going to space and/or future to kill some invading Alien race. When a game like Modern Warfare comes out, its feel like a breath of fresh air. I do understand that even this premise is gonna imitated and sequeled to staleness to but the point of this thread is:

What is your major gripe with shooters today and if you had you're way, what shooter what you would make? Personally I want to see a Vietnam based shooter since this has been barely explored. I'm also pitching my own game, tell me what you think:

Civil War:BLOOD LUST!

SHOT TWO ROUNDS IN JUST OVER TWO MINUTES!

WALK IN LINE RIGHT INTO A CANNON!!!

BE A MEDIC AND SAW YOUR OWN FUCKING LEG OFF!! WITHOUT PAINKILLERS!

ASSAULT A FORT AND BE CANNON FODDER!!

pretty great right?

WWII shooters wouldn't be so bad if they gave you the option of being a Nazi. Maybe do a shooter in the Harry Turtledove vein of an alternate world.

I do like the Civil War idea though. It would be better than the one they released about a year ago.

The WWII shooter genre has been done to the death... honestly, I'm getting sick of seeing another of those games released (except for the new Wolfenstein game, but I see it less than a WWII shooter and more of a mystery/fantasy kind of thing. It seems more fresh that way).

The problem with a Civil war based shooter is that you wouldn't be able to stand out as an individual as such. World War I was an era where individual war heroes began to stand out (can't really tell if this was the case for the civil war era).

I once played a Half Life-multiplayer-mod depicting the war of Independence (America vs England) at a Lan session. It was fun, because the group that managed to fight organized won - you had to advance in rows (the first row fired, then kneeled down; while they reloaded, the second row fired etc.) If you diverted from that tactic, you were pretty much lost. I doubt that this would be appealing to a mass market, however.

The scenario you discribed sounded very intriguing, Metal Sonic. Especially the part about hacking your own limb off... I too think that there are way too little games out there where one can dismember himself! However, I see a bit of a problem in how you could realistically transmit the sensation of doing so without painkillers to the player. Electroshocks perhaps?

As for Vietnam era shooters... well, there was Vietcong. Personally I thought it was a pretty good game, well thought out, but as far as I know it didn't sell too well.

Personally, I haven't played so many FPSs that I'm getting positively sick of them (mainly because I wasn't exactly crazy about them to begin with). But I am tired of all the Medal of Honor/Call of Duty-type games. Surely there's something that can freshen them up a little bit.

How about a cinematic perspective via Half-Life? Or maybe one sprawling level, like the way Metroid Prime and Bioshock were laid out? Or how about some sort of dark, unrealistic twist, like introducing aliens/monsters/zombies into the mix?

I dunno, though - now that we're stuck in the 3D age, modern games are either going to be first-person or third-person action titles. I think more people should stop complaining about that fact and realize that there really aren't too many other options.

Shooting Nazis is always fun, although nothing beats the original Wolfenstein 3D.

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Originally Posted by MrMatthews

now that we're stuck in the 3D age, modern games are either going to be first-person or third-person action titles. I think more people should stop complaining about that fact and realize that there really aren't too many other options.

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Funny--I think more people should more vocally complain about it, because there is another option: stop making cookie cutter game and start innovating again. But big companies have no incentive to do so when the cookie cutter games are selling so well: vote/complain with your purchasing power and don't buy the crap.

I want Disneyland Massacre!!

Yeah, I hate FPS games where you shoot things. Not a big fan of racing games either cuz all you do is drive cars, who wants that?? stupid racing games. BO-O-RINg

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Originally Posted by Ghaleon

Funny--I think more people should more vocally complain about it, because there is another option: stop making cookie cutter game and start innovating again. But big companies have no incentive to do so when the cookie cutter games are selling so well: vote/complain with your purchasing power and don't buy the crap.

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I agree with you, but people want cookie cutter games. They don't want new IPs, they want Call of Duty 5, 6, and 7. They want another Halo. They want a guaranteed good time, and the best way for them to get that guarantee is to basically buy the same game over and over.

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Originally Posted by MrMatthews

I agree with you, but people want cookie cutter games. They don't want new IPs, they want Call of Duty 5, 6, and 7. They want another Halo. They want a guaranteed good time, and the best way for them to get that guarantee is to basically buy the same game over and over.

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There's nothing wrong with that, though. It's not like there's a finite supply of potential videogames out there, and each Tony Hawk game being released prevents somebody's indie masterpiece from getting out there.

Metal Sonic your game sounds boring; the reason there is no America Civil War game or WWI game is because, pretty much, people died by the hundreds in pointless deaths - and if you paid attention to pretty much any war game released in the past decade you'd recognise that the stereotype you're complaining about has not existed since the doom-clone era

I beleive we've hit the ceiling in terms of making games based on actual wars. We've had games about WW II, Vietnam, Desert Storm, The war in Iraq, WW I, ect. I think we've tapped that resource. I think developers should sorta play around with history when they make games. How about a game based on a world where England won the revolution and the Soviet Union never collapsed, It'd be interesting to see how different the world would be through games. Sadly, instead of developers brainstorming and creating an interesting concept and story based on the world and its societies, we are going to get nothing but "Call of Duty : whogivesashit" for the time being

My brother just got Orange Box for his 360 and we've been mucking about with the different games, Portal is by far and away the best thing in the whole package.

Sometimes games will be region specific and if the game is, say, from Germany, you very well might play as a Nazi. I know there's an airplane game for DC and you play as the Japanese in the Japan version and the US in the US version. Not sure how many games do that flip flop.

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Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

Sometimes games will be region specific and if the game is, say, from Germany, you very well might play as a Nazi. I know there's an airplane game for DC and you play as the Japanese in the Japan version and the US in the US version. Not sure how many games do that flip flop.

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Whoa! whoa whoa whoa whoa!!! Careful what you say here, I really take offense to that! You won't ever (officially) see a game (especially a shooter) coming from germany where you play as a Nazi. German law is very strict regarding display of symbols that can be interpreted as pro-fashist or pro third-reich.

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Originally Posted by Phantar

Whoa! whoa whoa whoa whoa!!! Careful what you say here, I really take offense to that! You won't ever (officially) see a game (especially a shooter) coming from germany where you play as a Nazi. German law is very strict regarding display of symbols that can be interpreted as pro-fashist or pro third-reich.

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Yeah, they are REALLY anti-nazi in Germany. So anti that they tried to boycott the wax figure of Hitler in Madame Tuseau's, and the figure ended up getting it's head ripped off or something like that by a random guy.

Yeah, no Nazis in Germany. Just no.

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Originally Posted by MrMatthews

How about a cinematic perspective via Half-Life? Or maybe one sprawling level, like the way Metroid Prime and Bioshock were laid out? Or how about some sort of dark, unrealistic twist, like introducing aliens/monsters/zombies into the mix?

I dunno, though - now that we're stuck in the 3D age, modern games are either going to be first-person or third-person action titles. I think more people should stop complaining about that fact and realize that there really aren't too many other options.

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But the thing is an innovative game is pretty fun. Fallout 3, Modern Warfare, The Orange Box and Left 4 Dead stand out as being original and fun, a breath of fresh air. Sure we probably wont be going back to 2D but I dont think all 3D games necessarily need to be shooters if that is what you're implying.

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Originally Posted by Ghaleon

Funny--I think more people should more vocally complain about it, because there is another option: stop making cookie cutter game and start innovating again. But big companies have no incentive to do so when the cookie cutter games are selling so well: vote/complain with your purchasing power and don't buy the crap.

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Exactly, I'm not gonna buy their games and slowly, other people are gonna do the same(I Hope) and something is gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by Elusive

Yeah, I hate FPS games where you shoot things. Not a big fan of racing games either cuz all you do is drive cars, who wants that?? stupid racing games. BO-O-RINg

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Yea thats me, you got me pegged, I'm just some guy in a rabid nerd induced rage screaming "SHOOTERS!!!1 BLBRGLRGRGRGRHGHGRG!!11!!!!1, WWII!!1111". You're so clever.
Seriously, how many times has everyone here fought WWII or fought in space against some aliens? And using the Shooter-Racing analogy is just awful, the racing genre has evolved so much, new cars, new tracks, damage, pit stops, famous races, new driving mechanics, etc, etc. Yet in shooters I've held a M1 Garand and Thompson for so many times, I just quit WWII games in general.

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Originally Posted by MrMatthews

I agree with you, but people want cookie cutter games. They don't want new IPs, they want Call of Duty 5, 6, and 7. They want another Halo. They want a guaranteed good time, and the best way for them to get that guarantee is to basically buy the same game over and over.

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I honestly dont think they do, look at the Call of Duty 4 sells and its 10+ million, look at World at War and its 5+ million last I checked.

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Originally Posted by sega fan

I beleive we've hit the ceiling in terms of making games based on actual wars. We've had games about WW II, Vietnam, Desert Storm, The war in Iraq, WW I, ect. I think we've tapped that resource. I think developers should sorta play around with history when they make games. How about a game based on a world where England won the revolution and the Soviet Union never collapsed, It'd be interesting to see how different the world would be through games. Sadly, instead of developers brainstorming and creating an interesting concept and story based on the world and its societies, we are going to get nothing but "Call of Duty : whogivesashit" for the time being

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I dont think we have, we need to leave WWII and maybe the grizzled space marine and focus on the things you posted already. I do think Modern Warfare doesn't belong on the cookie cutter thumbs down list as it didn't conform to the WWII shooter mindset and it sold like hotcakes proving that new and innovative sells.

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Originally Posted by Elusive

There's nothing wrong with that, though. It's not like there's a finite supply of potential videogames out there, and each Tony Hawk game being released prevents somebody's indie masterpiece from getting out there.

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I think there is something wrong with that. Major developers have the manpower to make a great game instead of milking a cash cow while the Indie industry can't compete since everyone focuses on the big blockbuster hits so the Indies are gradually dying out.

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Originally Posted by Elusive

Metal Sonic your game sounds boring; the reason there is no America Civil War game or WWI game is because, pretty much, people died by the hundreds in pointless deaths - and if you paid attention to pretty much any war game released in the past decade you'd recognise that the stereotype you're complaining about has not existed since the doom-clone era

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I think the self mutilation described in the original post and the all around badness of the idea should reveal it's a joke. I'm not sure but Call of Duty and Medal of Honor do visit WWII a lot. I also hear the new Battlefield is going back to it too. The only shooter I am looking forward to this year is Modern Warfare 2.

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Originally Posted by Phantar

Whoa! whoa whoa whoa whoa!!! Careful what you say here, I really take offense to that! You won't ever (officially) see a game (especially a shooter) coming from germany where you play as a Nazi. German law is very strict regarding display of symbols that can be interpreted as pro-fashist or pro third-reich.

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What did your country do when Company of Heroes and its expansions allowed you to play Nazi soldiers?

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Originally Posted by Baloo

Yeah, no Nazis in Germany. Just no.

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Boy, I wish that were true :(

I guess the problem is that a lot of politicians in Germany thought (and still think) it would be best to repress all memory of the Third Reich by telling of its horrors back at school... and then never to mention it again. As much as I advocate trying to restrict fascism, the german stance against Nazism can take some strange forms... let's just say, if I had an Avatar like Metal Sonic, chances are that this could be reason enough to get under surveillance by the german Verfassungsschutz because I might belong to an organisation that holds beliefs going against the german constitution.

By the way, Metal Sonic, I DO think that your Avatar is a bit tasteless.

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Originally Posted by Metal_Sonic

What did your country do when Company of Heroes and its expansions allowed you to play Nazi soldiers?

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In general, even if you don't play as but fight against Nazis, symbols associated with Nazism (like the famous red flag with the Swastika) have to be removed from the game or replaced by something else. Just as well, if you could play as a Nazi, the context would have to be changed so theat the character represents a fictional organization/country; otherwise it would be against German Law (§86 StGB). For example, in the German version of Return to Castle Wolfenstein you didn't fight Nazis, but the fictional "Wolfsclan" instead.

If the game still bears to much similarity to Nazism in any form, sales of that game become illegal and the game will be confiscated by law (as is the case, for example, with "Wolfenstein 3D")

As with "Company of Heroes", I think what happened was that all Swastikas and similar symbols were removed from the game and every mention of "thrid Reich" and "Nazi" were eliminated (though because of the Second World War Setting, it was highly implied). Anyone who knows even a little bit about the historic context realized this, of course, but apparently that was enough. Laughable, I know.

I think it's all but a proven fact that when it comes to video games, consumers are a lot more comfortable with buying a sequel as opposed to something new they have never heard of, especially at $60 a pop and no return policy if it turns out to be a shit fest. I do agree that perhaps too many games are either 1st or 3rd person shooters, but as long as the developers can string together a story I care to see unfold and use gameplay that's well put together, I can't complain. I would love to see more innovation but what I'd want most is more variety this generation. Namely some SHMUP's the 360 is getting put also on the PS3, other than that I think this generation is great, with tons more variety in types of games than I think there was last generation. I say that purely because none of these great download only games would have ever been put on disc last gen.

Really though people are never going to be happy. Back in the day you could argue that the premise/gameplay of 90% of games could be summed up with "Just go right damnit," and you'd be right.

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Originally Posted by Phantar

If the game still bears to much similarity to Nazism in any form, sales of that game become illegal and the game will be confiscated by law (as is the case, for example, with "Wolfenstein 3D")

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Confiscated means that even owning a legitimate import copy is illegal. Funny stuff, since in Wolfenstein 3D you are FIGHTING against Nazis, not playing as a Nazi. The game is anti-fascist, yet it is confiscated because of a law that was agreed upon to prevent [neo]fascist propaganda to be spread.

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Originally Posted by Phantar

I guess the problem is that a lot of politicians in Germany thought (and still think) it would be best to repress all memory of the Third Reich by telling of its horrors back at school... and then never to mention it again.

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The main problem is that the German kind of anti-fascism is just an empty phrase. Nazis aren't tolerated but most of the Nazi's concepts are totally acceptable. In fact, it seems unacceptable not to accept them.
It's some kind of a C.G. Jung-like archetype fantasy that a Nazi has to be some guy wearing a Swastika symbol, so your co-worker, relative or neighbor couldn't possibly be a Nazi although he is constantly ranting against communists, immigrants, Jews, these damn Polaks, Turks, social parasites, suppressed German culture, a perceived lack of German offspring, Illuminati, Zionists, stupid Americans, Negro music, Michel Friedman, etc.pp. - but he couldn't possibly be a Nazi because he doesn't wear a Swastika.

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Originally Posted by Phantar

Whoa! whoa whoa whoa whoa!!! Careful what you say here, I really take offense to that! You won't ever (officially) see a game (especially a shooter) coming from germany where you play as a Nazi. German law is very strict regarding display of symbols that can be interpreted as pro-fashist or pro third-reich.

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Nothing like getting rid of the taint of fascism by stamping out freedom of speech and expression, BRILLIANT!

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Originally Posted by Tanegashima

Nothing like getting rid of the taint of fascism by stamping out freedom of speech and expression, BRILLIANT!

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Please, let's not go down that road again...

As Christuserloeser put it, the way anti-fascism is handled by german law becomes pointless. Like if we tried really, REALLY hard to not see any Fascism, then there wouldn't be any. Like I say, trying to repress it. The idea behind this seems to be "we told you in school that fascism is bad - now let's never talk about it again, ever!" This, in my opinion, is very counter-productive.

The general idea behind making it illegal to display Nazi symbols is because these symbols display an allegiance with an anticonstitutional organization that threatens basic human rights. Though the way it is handled (Making it illegal to show these symbols and ignoring the context) is generally ignorant. It is not an elimination of freedom of speech per say - perfidiously you can talk about it and hold rallys etc., as long as you don't show a single swastika - only then it's against the law. That way, "Anti-fascism" becomes a pretty hollow phrase...

Still, I take offense to the assumption that "if a game comes from Germany, the protagonist is likely to be (or might very well play) a nazi". I don't like this generalization.

I want to see more low tech horror FPS like blood. Also, I don't mind separate levels, but I do like for them to be interesting with a plenty of exploration and secrets. For example, I thought Return to Castle Wolfenstien was great, but games like Serious Sam and Pain Killer suck.

Starseige Tribes was 'awesome' back in the day, I haven't played an FPS/TPS since that was any better.

Ultimately, I hate FPSs I've been sick of them since Doom was released...man is there a glut of them nowadays. No more.

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Originally Posted by Phantar

Please, let's not go down that road again...

As Christuserloeser put it, the way anti-fascism is handled by german law becomes pointless. Like if we tried really, REALLY hard to not see any Fascism, then there wouldn't be any. Like I say, trying to repress it. The idea behind this seems to be "we told you in school that fascism is bad - now let's never talk about it again, ever!" This, in my opinion, is very counter-productive.

The general idea behind making it illegal to display Nazi symbols is because these symbols display an allegiance with an anticonstitutional organization that threatens basic human rights. Though the way it is handled (Making it illegal to show these symbols and ignoring the context) is generally ignorant. It is not an elimination of freedom of speech per say - perfidiously you can talk about it and hold rallys etc., as long as you don't show a single swastika - only then it's against the law. That way, "Anti-fascism" becomes a pretty hollow phrase...

Still, I take offense to the assumption that "if a game comes from Germany, the protagonist is likely to be (or might very well play) a nazi". I don't like this generalization.

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Just raising the point that you don't have to answer shit to some lolbertarian who's attempting to call you out for your countries' political viewpoint. :)

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Originally Posted by Metal_Sonic

Yea thats me, you got me pegged, I'm just some guy in a rabid nerd induced rage screaming "SHOOTERS!!!1 BLBRGLRGRGRGRHGHGRG!!11!!!!1, WWII!!1111". You're so clever.
Seriously, how many times has everyone here fought WWII or fought in space against some aliens? And using the Shooter-Racing analogy is just awful, the racing genre has evolved so much, new cars, new tracks, damage, pit stops, famous races, new driving mechanics, etc, etc. Yet in shooters I've held a M1 Garand and Thompson for so many times, I just quit WWII games in general.

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Hey, if you can do hyperbole, so can I. Relax :P

The scenarios you describe - alien invasion, WW2 - are also the ones with the clearest 'good guys' and 'bad guys', so they fit nicely into a storyline. There aren't many other scenarios where you get to shoot stuff without wandering to far from a central theme, sadly.

...all I can say is play less WW2-em-ups and more 'quality' games :P

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Originally Posted by Elusive

Just raising the point that you don't have to answer shit to some lolbertarian who's attempting to call you out for your countries' political viewpoint. :)



Hey, if you can do hyperbole, so can I. Relax :P

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NO I WILL NOT BRBLBLBLBLBLLBLBLBLBBBB!!!!

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Originally Posted by Elusive

The scenarios you describe - alien invasion, WW2 - are also the ones with the clearest 'good guys' and 'bad guys', so they fit nicely into a storyline. There aren't many other scenarios where you get to shoot stuff without wandering to far from a central theme, sadly.

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I still think the Cold War heating up, Vietnam, Persian Gulf, Kprea, or do what sega fan said, tweaking history could make an interesting game. WWI and the American Civil War scenarios would suck though, for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by Elusive

...all I can say is play less WW2-em-ups and more 'quality' games :P

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I see a trend of making a strong multiplayer, weak singleplayer way of thinking for developers. I know there are plenty of great single player games now and coming but I don't know, multiplayer sells and a game company is a business after all.

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Originally Posted by Elusive

There's nothing wrong with that, though. It's not like there's a finite supply of potential videogames out there, and each Tony Hawk game being released prevents somebody's indie masterpiece from getting out there.

Metal Sonic your game sounds boring; the reason there is no America Civil War game or WWI game is because, pretty much, people died by the hundreds in pointless deaths - and if you paid attention to pretty much any war game released in the past decade you'd recognise that the stereotype you're complaining about has not existed since the doom-clone era

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Hate to contradict, mate, but there are in fact two on Xbox 360.

History Channel: The Civil War
History Channel: The Civil War Secret Missions