New Sega Nomad?

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

I wouldn't call that "old fashioned" - I was hacking Pitfall II on the Atari to add save states back in '84. I'd call it "narrow minded" instead. ;)

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fo rizzle!

And FWIW, there were save state devices even back in the day along side pure cheat devices like the Game Genie, though they never took off because I can only assume poor marketing (because god knows I would've jumped on that in a second).

Action Replay:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/6790/p1210023qr1.jpg

Naki Game Saver:

http://www.gamersgraveyard.com/repos...esaver_box.jpg


Like I said, save states at natural points (between levels, at checkpoints, etc.) is not cheating IMO, it's just including what wasn't there due to technological limitations, just like graphics filters.

I find the idea of "real hardware" a flawed concept anyway. Is a DOS computer not "real hardware" if it isn't made by IBM? There were dozens of sound cards back in the day that all sounded different, so on that note isn't the "correct" sound of a game up to opinion?

We are somehow conditioned to be fine that you can use Windows software on a Dell, Sony, Alienware, Toshiba, etc. and install or play it from a disk, CD, DVD, online download, etc. but you can only play a Genesis game from the original cartridge on a Sega made console from 1995 or before or you are a heretic. WTF? Why can't I play a bit for bit copy of the game through a chip by chip replication of a Genesis using a part for part replica of a Saturn controller and not call it the "real experience"?

I can understand the nostalgia and collector aspect just like booting a floppy in an old DOS computer vs. a ROM copy in DOSBox on your 2009 Windows 7 computer, but for day to day playing, I don't see what all the fuss is about.

So again, what is one good reason to buy this instead of a perfectly fine PSP with a non-working UMD for $60 and playing an emulated Genesis instead with potentially 1000's of ROMs plus NES, Master System, SNES (some), CPS 1, Neo Geo, etc. along side it? OR lug around a bag full of bulky cartridges that can get lost, broken, or stolen. Plus, the only thing real about the Retrogen is the cartridge in the slot, everything else is no more genuine than the PSP emulator.

Not to shit all over Gamesboro or anything, this stuff is great for the non-technically inclined, but if you can post on this forum, I would argue you are capable of running an emulator.

Well, the point was that these things should output proper sound but they don't. It happens to be an issue with emulation, but it doesn't really matter what causes it. It doesn't change the outcome.

Wow, this sure is a lively thread.

Emulation is okay for me in some cases. I like to use carts and have plenty of them for a bunch of systems. I'm even building a dedicated emulation computer (finish it one of these days) for Genesis and beyond-- if I can make it run DC games I will, but I'm shooting for Genesis right now. Pretty sure the machine I'm running (1.2GHz 1gb PC133 ram) will not run DC but I'll try it.

Very lively thread. But my other post got ignored:

Is AtGames making both the GenMobile and RetroGen??

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

Well, the point was that these things should output proper sound but they don't. It happens to be an issue with emulation, but it doesn't really matter what exactly causes it as it doesn't change the outcome.

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but the difference in a good emulator and an "ideal" Genesis is negligible to all but the most picky aficionados. The difference between an "ideal" Genesis and the Retrogen is...well...Grand Canyon-esque.

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Originally Posted by nathanallan

Pretty sure the machine I'm running (1.2GHz 1gb PC133 ram) will not run DC but I'll try it.

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Nah, that's not fast enough. I don't know the minimum specs required but I do remember reading that the Dreamcast's SH4 RISC running at 200MHz would be about as fast as a Pentium based CISC CPU at 1GHz, so you'd need a lot more horsepower than that to emulate a Dreamcast.

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Originally Posted by nathanallan

Is AtGames making both the GenMobile and RetroGen??

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I think the hardware is the same, but I doubt they're both licensed or produced by AtGames.

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Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

but the difference in a good emulator and an "ideal" Genesis is negligible

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That's probably true. I heard good things about PicoDrive. eke-eke's Genesis Plus on GC and Wii seems to be another one of those emulators that are incredibly close to the real thing.

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

I wouldn't call that "old fashioned" - I was hacking Pitfall II on the Atari to add save states back in '84. I'd call it "narrow minded" instead. ;)

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:D Awsome!

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Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

And FWIW, there were save state devices even back in the day along side pure cheat devices like the Game Genie, though they never took off because I can only assume poor marketing (because god knows I would've jumped on that in a second).

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Treasure Island Dizzy (NES) would always drive us crazy, 1 life and then start over from the begining, savestates are exactly what would have been perfect. Years later we just used a game genie for invulnerability, but that just cheats completely... (more moder cheating devices are much more flexible of course)

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We are somehow conditioned to be fine that you can use Windows software on a Dell, Sony, Alienware, Toshiba, etc. and install or play it from a disk, CD, DVD, online download, etc. but you can only play a Genesis game from the original cartridge on a Sega made console from 1995 or before or you are a heretic. WTF? Why can't I play a bit for bit copy of the game through a chip by chip replication of a Genesis using a part for part replica of a Saturn controller and not call it the "real experience"?

I can understand the nostalgia and collector aspect just like booting a floppy in an old DOS computer vs. a ROM copy in DOSBox on your 2009 Windows 7 computer, but for day to day playing, I don't see what all the fuss is about.

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Or what about running DOS games natively under Win9x with a compatible soundcard? (some being hardware compatible with old SB-16 standards, iirc others employed emulation) Or use a virtual machine under Win2000/XP opposed to full emulation like dosbox. Or what about using dosbox with the real media (CD is easy, 3.5" disks fairly so, 5.25" a bit trickier). A lot of games (especially disk based ones) installed completely to hard drive anyway (or allowed it optionally), so after install it doesn't much matter anyway. (and even then there's things lie CD immages on HD, we've been using virtual CD for years for old and new games alike)
Or what if you're emulating a Sega CD or many other disc based consoles, using the media directly?

On the PC note I've recently been considdering just seting up an older PC instead of struggling with compatibility (particularly other than DOS, and the more intensive DOS games), preferably a Win9x one. (for both DOS and some older windows games) That and I'd love to use some of our gameport only gamepads again. Hell, maybe even try Kega on it, particular with one of those gamepads. ;)
Lots of old PC components around (haven't gotten rid of a whole lot) and a CRT monitor with no issues with some of the odder resolutions. (particularly VGA mode 13h) But now I'm rambling. But I suppose this wouldn't be attractive if all the games and controllers worked flawlessly on new hardware,

For me, playing on real hardware is just fun, and for one thing it seems to have a bit more of a social/comunal aspect than emulation (even with multiple controllers), maybe I just haven't tried that enough, but maybe I shouldn't either. :p Meh, I just like old stuff, I pretty much always have, not just the games, the hardware. I need to get around to fixing my PortaColor. :D

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

Nah, that's not fast enough. I don't know the minimum specs required but I do remember reading that the Dreamcast's SH4 RISC running at 200MHz would be about as fast as a Pentium based CISC CPU at 1GHz, so you'd need a lot more horsepower than that to emulate a Dreamcast.

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Hmm, that doesn't sound quite right, and saying "pentium based CPU" is really vague, if you mean Pentium Classic that's way, way different context than more modern x86-32 processors, if you meant x86 architecture in general that's also way too vague. You can't just go by clock speed alone. (even within the same line there can be major changes, look at some of the performance ratings of Athlon XPs on early to late models of similar clock speeds, let alone the similar Sempron)

Dreamcast emulators need dual core CPUs to give you full speed. And pixel shader-capable video cards as well.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Hmm, that doesn't sound quite right

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That's very possible. I was quoting from memory. What I wanted to say was that the PC that nathanallan planned to use for his dedicated emulation PC wouldn't be fast enough.

Edit: I do remember now: There were discussions about the Xbox CPU, a Celeron PII with 700 MHz and I remember a few of the programmers mentioning that the Dreamcast's SH4 RISC CPU might be as fast if not faster for certain tasks, despite it being clocked at 200 MHz only.


...a P3 or P4 at 1.2 GHz should be a good bit faster though. :daze:

True but when you're emulating hardware you're actually using more cycles than the original silicon yielded because that's how inefficient code is. Even assembly isn't as fast as the real thing, and don't forget CPU time has to be distributed to several emulated components in tandem (that's why the 32X and Saturn took a long time to emulate properly) thus exponentially complicating the whole process.

It probably requires less processing power to decode ALL mammal genomes than to emulate the PS2. :daze:

Ace, I kind of get where you are coming from. I mean, the feeling is much better seeing and playing the real deal. Emulators can emulate that. However, I have found that that is the only advantage to using real hardware. I no longer have the time to play anymore to beat Sonic in one sitting. I cant play most RPGs anymore because my game time can end at any time with a baby around. Save states solve those problems for me. Even though I have the real hardware and games, I still find myself not using it because the emulators allow me to actually play games and finish them.

Now, is it cheating? Not really. I think saving games was not included due to technical issues, not necessarily because thats the way the programmers designed to game to be played. Its sort of like Phantasy Star 3. Do you think the developers really intended for you to buy items 1 at a time and have to go through the entire dialogue process with the shopkeeper 10 times to buy 10 healing items? They did it because of the lack to technology or skill at the time of development.

Well the thing is, part of enjoying classic games and getting the real experience is enjoying the music. It's great to play a game like Thunder Force IV or Streets of Rage II and be blown away at the quality of the audio compositions. I was always amazed at what the programmers/composers were able to do with such limited hardware. It's unfortunate that that the audio is butchered beyond belief. On one hand I think it is great to see a new portable Genesis system that plays actual cartridges but the trade of is weak sound. Some people are disappointed and some say they will just shut the sound off. Myself, I was somewhat interested in the novelty factor but I'll pass.

UNIT ARRIVED!!!!

THANK YOU BEASTECH

Retrogen Portable! Retrogen Portable! Yes! Yes! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

P.S.> Uploading unboxing video right now. Check out the images under the Haul thread. ;) I'll do my own review of it next.

Glad you got it! What do you think so far?

Sorry I had to split so abruptly last night guys, I was just exhausted. Feeling much better now though!

An ASIC with all the original hardware would be nice, but then you're stuck with "just" a MegaDrive. These days, you need something more to sell such an old system. By going the emulator on a SoC (System on Chip), they have the ability to offer newer games that run natively as well. That was part of the reason I pre-ordered the RetroGen - it offers the ability to run native games off SD card (at least, that seems to be case). For the price, you can't beat that. Also, it's possible that in the future the platform will be understood well enough to allow homebrew. For the money, I'll take that chance. :D

It looks like I spoke too soon on the flash cart. It works, but doesn't work well. When the games load up it seems that the screen dims a little bit every time you press a button. Panorama Cotten worked for a good portion of the first stage but locked up. Mega Man loaded but wouldn't let me press start to enter the game.

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Originally Posted by Beastech

Glad you got it! What do you think so far? ...

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Here's what I just PMed my friend Karakasa-Obake:

"I just tested the unit. It's awesome being able to play Genesis games on the go. Obviously the music is murdered in most titles I've placed (namely Truxton, Aladdin, Sonic 2), but I still love it. It's a bit flimsy, so yes, you have to take care of it. The buttons are a bit odd, but that only adds to the profile, which makes the unit look pretty neat. I was concerned with the LED on the front, I wondered if it was broken, but it turns out it's just a warning light for your battery life. So it's ok if it's off during gameplay. It's the LED on the bottom that tells you the power is on (green when it's not plugged to the USB port, red when it is charging) You can play the games while charging, and this is really cool because it doesn't matter where you're from, this unit is truly Universal. It will only need a laptop, the power is carried from the USB (like a SanDisk MP3 player). Again, the plastic is flimsy, especially on the back, which is just a thin lamina you must take care not to press on, otherwise you may break it (it almost happened to me as I was inserting a cartridge). On that same note, you don't want to press on the cart as you would with your genesis/md console, the pin connector is not that "tall", so just a couple of milimiters will do and it sets in place (pressing on it may break the unit).

The d-pad DOES have directional markings, but pressing on each arrow just wont work the same as you would think. You need to use the d-pad as you would a 3 button controller for the genesis, with the butt of your thumb (meaning, the distal end of your proximal phalanx--phalange is plural). Anyways, it feels great to own this baby. One of the thigns I wanted this unit for was to play my RPGs on the go, then continue them at home. It is going to save me a lot of time. Beggar Prince, here I come! :D (and also Pier Solar ;))"

P.S.> Thanks again Beastech. I made an unboxing vid for my youtube channel and I'm giving you a shoutout. Glad you're feeling better. ;)

Hey man, no problem. Glad you are enjoying the unit. Mind reviewing it on gsubooks.com?

I played Beggar Prince for an hour last night on the Retrogen and FINALLY got through the damn desert and made it to a save point in the dungeon. I'm really glad they got it working on the unit because it is what I wanted to play the most. Next up was Gunstar, Sonic 2, and Lightening Force.

Can anyone tell me more about the SD card?
I hear it only allows you to play official games and you need a special cart in to make it work - does the unit come with the cart? can I write homebrew and run it from the sd card?

Thanks

The SD Card cartridge has not come out yet, the Retrogen doesn't come with it. No idea of all it will be capable of. (hopefully really cool stuff)

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Originally Posted by Beastech

The SD Card cartridge has not come out yet, the Retrogen doesn't come with it. No idea of all it will be capable of. (hopefully really cool stuff)

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Hopefully it's just a MD cart to SD adapter. If it is, it might be possible to make use of it on regular MDs... maybe boot a program off the CD that allows you to then use the SD card like a hard drive.

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Originally Posted by Beastech

...Mind reviewing it on gsubooks.com?...

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I just did. ;)

Beastech: Can you tell us how the games look on the portable screens? All the Youtube vids show the system hooked to TVs, and you said earlier that the screen was good. Would you care to elaborate?

I hadn't heard anything about the SD card adapter... if that comes out I may just wet myself. I'll probably order the Retrogen sometime in about a week or so, I'm going to be out of town and don't want the package to arrive when I'm not here. I've got a Nomad and a PSP with Picodrive, but they both have their faults.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

I do remember now: There were discussions about the Xbox CPU, a Celeron PII with 700 MHz and I remember a few of the programmers mentioning that the Dreamcast's SH4 RISC CPU might be as fast if not faster for certain tasks, despite it being clocked at 200 MHz only.


...a P3 or P4 at 1.2 GHz should be a good bit faster though. :daze:

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Yeah, probably more competitive with the Xbox's CPU, at least for soem things. (and that's rather complex to compare with the different arcitectures, and separate integer and floating point performance comparisons) I don't know enough to comment on that very much though. (the Xbox's CPU is rated much higher in terms of instruction/s and floating point operiations/s plus a larger cache and a L2 cache, but again there's the architecture differences; though I think the SH4 in the DC has a faster connection to main RAM than the Xbox CPU does)

Note that the Xbox's CPU isn't a Pentium II Celeron either, rather a Pentium III celeron. (basicly a copermarine PIII 733 with 1/2 the L2 cache and 1/2 the front side bus speed)

I'm not sure you need a dual core to properly emulate the DC (as someone else mentioned), but certainly a fast single core. ANd of course it's got to emulate more than just the CPU, but the entire DC. (well, some emulators might be able to simulate certain parts of the hardware using native hardware rather than fully emulting it in software)

One thing so far has NOT been mentioned is the ram-- it's pc133, nowhere near what the DC games need-- way too slow. I can see if it's a 1.2ghz with maybe pc3200, might do a decent job of it-- but not pc133, that is a dead stop for any DC emulation on that machine.

I may rebuild it with a nicer board later, or make a new one for DC emulation-- or better yet, just stuff a whole DC in the case along with a PC and run it that way. Talk about dual boot!

Whats so hard about emulating the music right ? Picodrive does it very well on every series60 mobile phone since years.

Hey Ace, you said it souds like part of the problem might be due to a poor mixing circuit/amp on top of poor sound emulation, if that's the case, you should at least be able to mod that portion of the hardware to sound better, right?

Edit, or you could just build your own like this guy. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPRtAd3SCHc

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Originally Posted by QuickSciFi

I just did. ;)

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What's your username there? Are you dasgamer?

/edit nevermind, I found your channel.

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Originally Posted by Beastech

The SD Card cartridge has not come out yet, the Retrogen doesn't come with it. No idea of all it will be capable of. (hopefully really cool stuff)

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is the sd card cartrige coming out for sega genesis firecore console.

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Originally Posted by nathanallan

What's your username there? Are you dasgamer?

/edit nevermind, I found your channel.

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Lol. No way. Not dasgamer. QuickSciFi all the way.;)

Thanks for the sub, dude. I really appreciate it. I subbed right back.:D

P.S.> Full-length Retrogen Portable review coming-up next.

Too easy! I'll be reviewing the GenMobile when it comes out. Looking forward to your review!

Heck yeah I subbed. I gotta keep up.

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Originally Posted by QuickSciFi

Lol. No way. Not dasgamer. QuickSciFi all the way.;)

Thanks for the sub, dude. I really appreciate it. I subbed right back.:D

P.S.> Full-length Retrogen Portable review coming-up next.

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It looks light but very well made. Hopefully it will be here by Monday.

I REALLY hope the GEN Mobile has good sound, I need to play Outrun on the go.

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Originally Posted by Deo

I REALLY hope the GEN Mobile has good sound, I need to play Outrun on the go.

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I think the Retrogen is going to be better. Bigger Screen. Better D-Pad. The Gen-mobile however does have better built in games and looks like it has some more weight to it but I guess we have to wait and see. :|

So many things have happened before I commented, that I might have to type a long post.

About the built in games: The games do look pretty cheesy. The music sounds generic and is repeated across games. The ice hockey game has the scoring area backwards; isn't it supposed to be in the middle, not on the top and bottom sides? I guess "curling" is engrish for dogeball. :lol: The majohn game looks slow and loud, and from the video it does not look like you know the rules (you can only match the tiles whose left or right sides are free). The maze and Space Invaders game looks kind of fun, though.

About the emulator quality: I am guessing that the pitch of the PCM, not the FM or the PSG, has to do with the inaccuracy and changing speed of the CPU emulators (Since the PCM for the DAC is not automatic, it is sent by the CPUs manually). It seems that if there is not much activity in the emulated 68k, the emulated Z80 becomes faster than normal ("Seeee-gaaaaa" song). If there is a lot of activity on the 68k, it becomes too slow (Earthworm Jim Samples).
I'm guessing that the flash cart is causing the screen to dim/games to malfunction because the flash cart requires more power than the average cartridge. The extra power can cause the emulation to slow down and the backlight to lose power temporarily.

Etc: Dreamcast Smash Pack sounds like they replaced the YM2612 with a couple 2A03's (sound chip/CPU from the NES).

True, I don't know how to play it. Don't know how to play the "checkers" game either. Its cool though, I don't have any interest in playing either one.

Now if they would have included chess, I would have been very happy.

So I was in a mall near me (Franklin Mills Mall in philly) and went into game trader, and there it was...the retrogen for 50 bucks. I just had to get it.
Here is the requisite pic of it with game genie & sonic and knuckles & sonic 2
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/388...ogen3games.jpg

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Originally Posted by sasuke

Etc: Dreamcast Smash Pack sounds like they replaced the YM2612 with a couple 2A03's (sound chip/CPU from the NES).

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You know, there's a warez version of the Smash Pack emulator called "obsidian" that you can download off of torrents with a semi-complete ROM pack. It's kind of interesting to hear 8-bit-ish sounds from all of your favorite Genesis games. Big time NES fans have actually requested information about it on youtube videos, etc. because they like it so much, lol. I think I'd rather it sound completely different (8-bit) than just really off key like many clones.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Hey Ace, you said it souds like part of the problem might be due to a poor mixing circuit/amp on top of poor sound emulation, if that's the case, you should at least be able to mod that portion of the hardware to sound better, right?

Edit, or you could just build your own like this guy. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPRtAd3SCHc

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man, that thing is an ergonomic nightmare! cross style d-pad (yuck!), vertically stacked buttons (ewww), WTF? I don't know why people spend so much time on these things and then use such awful controls. What someone needs to do is make a portable into one of those larger arcade joysticks. Have the joystick, buttons, and screen all in one box. It's really perfect if you think about it because joysticks already have tons of air space inside to store batteries and other components and usually have a big enough gap between the buttons and joystick for a screen. Even better, the joystick and switches are easy to solder to and hook up to an existing board vs. hacking a controller in two and desperately trying to connect the traces back together.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Hey Ace, you said it souds like part of the problem might be due to a poor mixing circuit/amp on top of poor sound emulation, if that's the case, you should at least be able to mod that portion of the hardware to sound better, right?

Edit, or you could just build your own like this guy. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPRtAd3SCHc

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You would still get the nasty sound pitch problems, so it's not worth it.

But now that I have a Street Fighter II Radica Genesis, whose built-in games I really don't give a damn about, I just might hack that up into a "Nomad Mini," which would have a 3" screen, Player 2 controller port, internal lithium battery with power supply input, TV output in both Mono and Stereo via the headphone jack, and Stereo speakers.

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Originally Posted by EddieJ1984

Here is the requisite pic of it with game genie & sonic and knuckles & sonic 2
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/388...ogen3games.jpg

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What a tower, man! How stable is the RetroGEN running that massive tower?

Well it didnt go past the gamegenie screen, lol ill try again later.
Also I know peope been wondering about the screen, fantastic imo, displays the games good.
Interestingly tho x,y,z doesnt work with WWF Royal Rumble, but works with WWF RAW, Comix Zone, Ultimate MK 3 and stuff.