Consumer's rights... or lack thereof.

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08-05-2009, 10:51 PM
Diosoth

Consumer's rights... or lack thereof.

As far as entertainment media is concerned, we pay for the disc. Real, hard money for a game disc, CD, DVD... or even money for legal downloads. But we have limited rights. No rights to keep a backup copy. If your purchased disc is damaged in any manner, go buy a new one! If your download is lost, you can redownload for free, assuming the company stays around.

Mike Capps is trying to criminalize used game sales. We shouldn't be allowed to sell off discs we paid for? We make no profit... we lose the rights to sue the sotware without a copy. David Jaffe seems to support used game sales, but is careful to word himself in such a way as to not upset other game industry people.

DRM has severely hampered legit PC game sales. It adds needless spyware to comouters and treats paying customers like criminals. Starforce disables virtual drives. That's like banning all knives because they can be used to stab people, ignoring legit uses. And what's it done to curb piracy? NOTHING. Nothing at all. In fact, it encourages piracy because people want to avoid needless add-ons such as DRM. Even paying customers still have to pirate and run a bootleg copy- support the company, avoid the DRM.

And... another fun run-in. Artists like to sell artwork commissions, but the general concensus amongst them is that the buyer should have very few rights to display artwork they paid for. At $40-$75 PER DRAWING from freelancers at DeviantART, FurAffinity, etc, this is unacceptable. I wanted some art pieces I PAID FOR to be removed from the artist's gallery. They refused, citing copyrights, and made legal threats against me. They may own the drawing itself, but I own one of the characters in the drawing. Sega owns the other character. They also got incredibly snotty with me when I said I would no longer buy artwork from them.

I think it's time we start telling the companies to screw off. Demand the copyright laws be done away with and new ones set in place. Remember when angry people would organize and get guns? We don't do that anymore, so I don't see the trends changing.
08-06-2009, 03:21 AM
Rusty Venture
08-06-2009, 04:33 AM
AD2101

What the hell, I'll play. I'll be on vay-kay for the next 5 days so I won't know what kind of shit storm this thread might cause but whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diosoth

If your purchased disc is damaged in any manner, go buy a new one!

Most retailers give you 30 days right off the bat, then you have a 90 day warranty from the manufacturer, and if that still doesn't work for you then throw down an extra $3 on a year long PRP from GameStop or the like. This is hardly an issue unique to games, as everything gives up the ghost eventually. Just be glad most retailers don't take an "All sales are final" approach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diosoth

No rights to keep a backup copy.... If your download is lost, you can redownload for free, assuming the company stays around.

I don't know how it works with PC's and the various services on there but the 360, PS3, and the Wii aren't going anywhere soon, and you can re-download lost games through their respective online services. But honestly, companies going out of business and you being SOL is nothing unique to this industry either. It sucks I get it but these things happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diosoth

Mike Capps is trying to criminalize used game sales. We shouldn't be allowed to sell off discs we paid for? We make no profit...

Pretty sure he's out for GameStop's and GameCrazy's blood, not yours or mine.

I might be able to agree with you, but I just wanna know what exactly you suggest they do then, because short of holding your hand while you walk out to your car I think they meet you halfway at least most of the time.
08-06-2009, 06:11 PM
Diosoth

Mike Capps has a plan to sell incomplete video games. And I'm not talking normal DLC, I'm talking "you can only download the final level with the code from the retail package." If you buy your game used, you will have to go online and pay them for the remaider of the game. Sounds to me like he wants to punish consumers directly.
08-06-2009, 07:09 PM
Why-Disciple

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diosoth

FurAffinity

...Why did you use a furry site as an example?
08-06-2009, 08:28 PM
bohokii

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Venture

i like that holey diaper song better

cause ive been down too long in the midnight pee

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...i/DCP_7467.jpg

most of my favorite stuff is on 8 track i'll be damned if i'm gonna buy them again over and over
08-06-2009, 10:28 PM
Nunzio

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Venture

Oh man I love Holy Diver. The Famicom game is awesome. I have actually played it while listening to the album... it works! Like Dark Side of the Moon and Wizard of Oz.

imho, Mystery is totally underrated. While on the subject of Dio, I wouldn't suppose anyone happens to have any of the old Rainbow stuff on mp3...
08-06-2009, 11:34 PM
gamevet

Quote:

Originally Posted by bohokii

most of my favorite stuff is on 8 track i'll be damned if i'm gonna buy them again over and over

I've never heard an 8-track that didn't drag months after buying it. There's a reason it went down in flames.
08-07-2009, 02:49 AM
bohokii

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

I've never heard an 8-track that didn't drag months after buying it. There's a reason it went down in flames.

psyche i bought all this crap like a year ago most of it still works fine though

the endless loop is facinating and the kerchunk every 15 minutes is neat too
08-07-2009, 03:48 AM
Flygon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why-Disciple

...Why did you use a furry site as an example?

Because it is actually the truth. Furries will pay for anything.:daze:

Personally, those that do are just going overboard.
08-07-2009, 04:32 AM
Nunzio

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diosoth

And... another fun run-in. Artists like to sell artwork commissions, but the general concensus amongst them is that the buyer should have very few rights to display artwork they paid for. At $40-$75 PER DRAWING from freelancers at DeviantART, FurAffinity, etc, this is unacceptable. I wanted some art pieces I PAID FOR to be removed from the artist's gallery. They refused, citing copyrights, and made legal threats against me. They may own the drawing itself, but I own one of the characters in the drawing. Sega owns the other character. They also got incredibly snotty with me when I said I would no longer buy artwork from them.

That's standard, most freelancers like to show off their paying work in their portfolios because in most cases it is for credibility rather than the money. Unless you have a clause in your agreement specifically saying they can't do that then you can't do shit about it. If he draws a picture of Sonic Sega can't tell him to remove it from his portfolio. If they are a member of something like the GDC or GAG you are doubly-fucked.

I take it you didn't get anything in writing though, so he can just say that he owns the rights to the image and you bought a copy. Then you say, well I own the character, you can't use a likeness of my character. Then he says is it copyrighted? and you say no because it's the truth. And he says well fuck you.
08-07-2009, 05:13 AM
The Coop

Diosoth- Regarding your comments about Deviantart and such, I can see where visual artists come from, being one myself.

You spend hours upon hours working on an illustration or design, you want to use it to show off your abilities, and then someone tells you to take it down because they don't want you showing off what you made for them. Commissioned piece or no, when it's something you think turned out well, you want it in your portfolio. And as long as the artist mentions which characters are copyrighted to whom, I see no reason for them to be forced into taking it down. The only time I can see a legit claim to be made, is if it was agreed upon (in writing) that the artist wouldn't display the piece they made for a given client because of a something like the story featuring the characters not being done yet, the characters are in the process of being copyrighted... you know, things of that nature.

I can also understand why an artist would want some kind of limitations on the recipient, regarding their displaying the finished illustration (no full resolution copies on-line is one of the bigger limitations). Problems start arising when full resolution copies start showing up everywhere. This is infuriating to an artist, as now everyone's getting full blown copies of their work for free, without having to pay for it, and without it having been part of any agreement. It may not seem like it, but it can very easily be seen in the same light as one person buying a game, and then giving everyone copies of it. So it's perfectly legitimate that they'd want some kind of control over what they made (be it in still art, sculpture, web sites, or what have you), even if the characters within the piece aren't theirs.

See, it's like what's done with hired musicians who make music specifically for a game or a film/video. They don't want that music being used in game after game, or video after video, for free. So, they make a contract saying that the music in question is only to be used in game/video X. Any other uses would require further payment. Visual artists are entitled to this same deal. Some do it, some don't. But the option is there if they choose to use it.

Of course, none of this equates to the right for the artist or the recipient to be a dick. A few simple agreements before the piece is done can usually settle most issues that might crop up before they arise. And when someone breaks what was agreed upon, then there's a legit claim to be made... be it by the artist, or the recipient. But if nothing's said before hand, then it's open season, and it comes down to whether someone's willing to be nice, and go with whatever requests are made afterward.

So Diosoth, I suggest you take your experiences, and learn from them. Know before hand what you do and don't want the artist to do with the illustration or what have you that they make for you, and get written agreements made that bind each of you. It protects you, and it protects the artist. It's a shame that you and the artist had a fall out over it, but then again, we're only getting one side of the story here. As such, I'm taking your commentary on their behavior with a considerable grain of salt.
08-07-2009, 05:39 AM
Rusty Ghia

DRM is probably the worst thing to happen to media in a really long time. I don't understand these companies biting the hand that feeds them. I refuse to pay more than $10 for what amounts to a glorified rental.

If I can't lend, trade, or sell it, then I'm not interested.
08-07-2009, 05:41 AM
Knuckle Duster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diosoth

As far as entertainment media is concerned, we pay for the disc. Real, hard money for a game disc, CD, DVD... or even money for legal downloads. But we have limited rights. No rights to keep a backup copy. If your purchased disc is damaged in any manner, go buy a new one! If your download is lost, you can redownload for free, assuming the company stays around.

For one so adamant against 'backups and piracy' in your other thread, your logic almost gos astray here by insinuating it's justification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diosoth

Mike Capps is trying to criminalize used game sales. We shouldn't be allowed to sell off discs we paid for? We make no profit... we lose the rights to sue the sotware without a copy. David Jaffe seems to support used game sales, but is careful to word himself in such a way as to not upset other game industry people.

Criminalization is a serious term holding a lot of weight. In reality the word 'Prohibit' would make more sense to the situation. Either way, they're just opinions held by players within the industry. Nothing they influence can effectively change the industry unless the marketplace itself is on board as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diosoth

DRM has severely hampered legit PC game sales. It adds needless spyware to comouters and treats paying customers like criminals. Starforce disables virtual drives. That's like banning all knives because they can be used to stab people, ignoring legit uses. And what's it done to curb piracy? NOTHING. Nothing at all. In fact, it encourages piracy because people want to avoid needless add-ons such as DRM. Even paying customers still have to pirate and run a bootleg copy- support the company, avoid the DRM.

Invasive and bloated software sucks, it's not limited to gaming. You would do well to educate yourself on the efforts of the Free Software Foundation as far as licensing rights go, or alternatively; the general philosophy behind the Open Source community's movement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diosoth

And... another fun run-in. Artists like to sell artwork commissions, but the general concensus amongst them is that the buyer should have very few rights to display artwork they paid for. At $40-$75 PER DRAWING from freelancers at DeviantART, FurAffinity, etc, this is unacceptable. I wanted some art pieces I PAID FOR to be removed from the artist's gallery. They refused, citing copyrights, and made legal threats against me. They may own the drawing itself, but I own one of the characters in the drawing. Sega owns the other character. They also got incredibly snotty with me when I said I would no longer buy artwork from them.

Unacceptable based on your perceptions of fair use, or what you agreed to by contract. It sounds like you're in the wrong from what you've presented.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diosoth

I think it's time we start telling the companies to screw off. Demand the copyright laws be done away with and new ones set in place. Remember when angry people would organize and get guns? We don't do that anymore, so I don't see the trends changing.

Stupid talk.

You're pissed that the industry is attempting various ways to 'Change' from it's tradition model, yet complain about their efforts and propose nothing but: "Fuck them, fuck the laws, lets change them forcefully."
I just 'had' to bold the last part. Honestly, your last sentence is an oxymoron to everything you've bitched about here.

So tell me, Did you 'Smash' your NES games yet? :lol:
08-08-2009, 07:37 AM
Elusive

Tell me more about how videogame companies are run by mustache-twirling cartoon supervillains. Tainted with EVIL.

Quote:

You would do well to educate yourself on the efforts of the Free Software Foundation as far as licensing rights go, or alternatively; the general philosophy behind the Open Source community's movement.

Nah, I think he's after something that actually works ;)
08-08-2009, 04:00 PM
Knuckle Duster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elusive

Nah, I think he's after something that actually works ;)

Aren't we all though. :D

I was referring him to their 'efforts', just to deflate any notion that might be had that this is a 'new' complaint he's dreamed up.
08-08-2009, 09:01 PM
Elusive

My view is that digital items do not age, can (variably) be transferred from one media to another, can be modified using software to work with varying hardware (i.e. software emulation) and remain intact basically indefinitely on magnetic platters - as opposed to facing the scenario of having a disc with nothing to play it on. I mean, how many millions must there be of old, unknown C64 or Speccy tapes that are basically degrading into nothingness because the magazine it was sold in lasted for twelve issues and the coder was a fourteen-year-old from Milton Keynes who's now a middle-level accountant with a wife and kids?

Is keeping sealed games 'for the museum' any different from putting a HDD in a cupboard?

[edit] I mean, fuck, I want a storage media that will outlast the natural entropy of the Universe. If I can't play Peggle in the year fifteen-million-and-twelve I'll be so pissed off!

[edit2] and I still won't be even near the global leaderboards :(
08-09-2009, 03:54 AM
bohokii

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elusive

[edit] I mean, fuck, I want a storage media that will outlast the natural entropy of the Universe. If I can't play Peggle in the year fifteen-million-and-twelve I'll be so pissed off!

[edit2] and I still won't be even near the global leaderboards :(

haa peggle
08-11-2009, 05:46 AM
Mr Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elusive

Tell me more about how videogame companies are run by mustache-twirling cartoon supervillains. Tainted with EVIL.

How did you discover I was running a video game company? :o
08-11-2009, 08:49 PM
Elusive

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Smith

How did you discover I was running a video game company? :o

Because I have a copy - well, the box - here of your 'Giovanni O'Rourke's Pro Hearse Racing' game; it contained an expired coupon for Ready Brek, with teeth marks on it.