Genesis and SNES, which had better version of a game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gamevet

Wouldn't it be easier to do it through mode 7 though? The background effects look identical to those of the airship stages in Final Fantasy on the SNES, minus the rotation.

---

No. It you look closely, you'll see that the screen scales smaller vertically but not horizontally (Axelay). That's why it looks like a "roll off" instead. It looks different than the airship stages of FF because they have horizontal scaling in conjunction with vertical scaling - minus any rotation effects.

And it's not easier or such. It's about restrictions. Mode 7 is a special mode on the SNES. Normally the SNES has two background layers, and 3 in mode 1 which is commonly used. In Mode 7 - you only have 1 background and you only have a smaller number of tiles to work with - because they are 256 color mode. It's pretty limiting. Most games that use Mode 7 for bosses have no backgrounds or use sprites to make up sparse/simple detail.

Quote:

---

You're the only person I've heard call the effects in Axelay something other than mode 7. I believe Axelay was made the way it was, because a lot of developers messed with mode 7 effects early on with the SNES. Contra III was one example, as was F-Zero and Castlevania IV.

---

Like I said, it's not mode 7 because it's not using "mode 7" of the sPPU. It's a special mode where the background characteristics change/limited drastically from other modes. You can't just scale rotate BGs in other modes, only "mode 7". You can't just call anything that appears to scale as "mode 7" either. Axelay uses this non-mode 7 technique because the game needs 2 overlapping BG layers. It needs additional features that are lacking in "mode 7". The first boss for instance is a second BG layer itself. You can't do that vertical scale method on sprites, only BGs, so the boss is a BG layer. And IIRC, the 3rd BG layer (2bit one) is used for color transparency.

Also, did you not check out the SGX demo I posted a link to? The SGX does the exact same effect as Axelay. Even uses ripped tiles. And there's not scaling/rotation/mode 7 hardware on the SGX.

You still have the sprite window for a back drop with Mode 7 right? (otherwise there'd just be a black background)
And can't you have 2 tiles in mode 7 (128 colors each), or is that just mirroring the first one. (like in Hyperzone)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

No. It you look closely, you'll see that the screen scales smaller vertically but not horizontally (Axelay). That's why it looks like a "roll off" instead. It looks different than the airship stages of FF because they have horizontal scaling in conjunction with vertical scaling - minus any rotation effects.

And it's not easier or such. It's about restrictions. Mode 7 is a special mode on the SNES. Normally the SNES has two background layers, and 3 in mode 1 which is commonly used. In Mode 7 - you only have 1 background and you only have a smaller number of tiles to work with - because they are 256 color mode. It's pretty limiting. Most games that use Mode 7 for bosses have no backgrounds or use sprites to make up sparse/simple detail.

---

You know what's funny? I have a SNES that just happens to have the chip (dead) that's used for mode 7, that's on the funk. I can play most of the games that don't use that effect, but anything mode 7, becomes a black screen, with sprites dancing around. Super Mario Kart, Pilot Wings, Super Tennis, Contra III and F-Zero are pretty much unplayable on the system.

It's too bad I don't own Axelay, because that system would answer my question as to wether it is mode 7 or not.

Quote:

---

Also, did you not check out the SGX demo I posted a link to? The SGX does the exact same effect as Axelay. Even uses ripped tiles. And there's not scaling/rotation/mode 7 hardware on the SGX.

---

I didn't feel like downloading an emulator. Do you not have a video of that demo?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

You still have the sprite window for a back drop with Mode 7 right? (otherwise there'd just be a black background)
And can't you have 2 tiles in mode 7 (128 colors each), or is that just mirroring the first one. (like in Hyperzone)

---

Yeah, you can still have a background (probably made out of sprites) behind the scaling BG level. Pilotwings has the words rotate and scale in on the title screen, with a cloudy sky background.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kool kitty

It doesn't really look much like mode 7 though... Mode 7 is just a 128x128 pixel, textured tile (or 2 tiles iirc) that can be scaled and rotated, but not distorted.

Axelay looks like a warping raster effect with some scaling, kind of like some Amiga stuf.

---

The scaling continents during the Final Fantasy Airship levels look very much like that. You even have clouds (in FFVI) floating above the scaled ground below.

Not the best example, but at the 4 minute mark you can see one of the mode 7 overhead views for Final Fantasy VI (Japan), or Final Fantasy III (NA).



In one level of Axelay, you have what appears to be large pipes above another background below. If you take a closer look, you'll notice that those pipes aren't scaling at a different speed (like parallax) than the background supposedly below it. You have sections of pipe that can be blown apart (sprites) that are more than likely pasted onto that background to make it look like the whole pipe sections are flowing independent of the background.

When the huge bosses enter the level, the background comes to a screeching halt and becomes a static background.

By "sprite window" I meant the first scroll layer, the BG layers coming after that (and being the ones listed in various graphics modes as on wiki), hence all the NEs or TG-16 has is the window, no "Background" layers, while the Genesis has 2 BG layers in addition to the sprite "window." The terminology was confusing for me as well.

I'd assume the sprite layer and "window" would have the same set-up regardless of which graphics mode is used. (and I'd assume both feature multiple 16-color palettes, iirc other 16-color layers tended to have 8 subpalettes each, so I'd guess these would as well)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gamevet

You know what's funny? I have a SNES that just happens to have the chip (dead) that's used for mode 7, that's on the funk. I can play most of the games that don't use that effect, but anything mode 7, becomes a black screen, with sprites dancing around. Super Mario Kart, Pilot Wings, Super Tennis, Contra III and F-Zero are pretty much unplayable on the system.

It's too bad I don't own Axelay, because that system would answer my question as to wether it is mode 7 or not.

---

Or you can open the savestate in a hexeditor/tile editor ;)

Quote:

---

I didn't feel like downloading an emulator. Do you not have a video of that demo?

---

My desktop is down and this laptop is too slow for frame capturing.. so sadly not at the moment.

Quote:

---

In one level of Axelay, you have what appears to be large pipes above another background below. If you take a closer look, you'll notice that those pipes aren't scaling at a different speed (like parallax) than the background supposedly below it. You have sections of pipe that can be blown apart (sprites) that are more than likely pasted onto that background to make it look like the whole pipe sections are flowing independent of the background.

---

You mean this level?
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8323/axelay0002.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

Or you can open the savestate in a hexeditor/tile editor ;)

---

I wouldn't know what I'm looking for, or where to look. My background in programming is nothing more than basic and very entry level hex code. It's been over 20 years since I've done either of those.

Quote:

---

You mean this level?
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8323/axelay0002.png

---

That's it.

Like I said, the restriction for Mode 7 is only 1 BG layer. So no overlapping BG parts. Run the game in the emulator and you can see that it's using 3 BG layers - by disabling them one at a time. It's apparent that two of the BG layers are 16color/4bit tile mode. The only mode with two 16color/4bit BGs and 1 extra BG; is mode 1. The 3rd BG being 3color/2bit (usually used for status overlay window, but not restricted to). We know the pipes aren't sprites because we can disable them as a BG layer and because sprites cannot be scaled/squished/expanded vertically like BG layers (this is common for the 8 and 16bit home consoles). And lastly, opening the savestate in a tile viewer to peek at vram - you can visually see all the tiles for the pipes and city are in 16color/4bit format. Mode 7 only uses 8bit/256color tile format (sprites are still 4bit/16color format, though).

So without even going into a SNES debugger, you have everything you need to know - if the game is running in mode 7 or not. And it's not :)

Also, the pipes scroll at a different speed as the city layer. Certain parts of the pipe map can be destroyed. When they break, they immediate remove the graphic from the BG layer and use sprites instead to animate the debris.

I'll take your word for it.

I'm using Zsnes to run Axelay and it doesn't have those options.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gamevet

I'll take your word for it.

I'm using Zsnes to run Axelay and it doesn't have those options.

---

In Zsnes, goto "MISC" tab at the top bar, from there click "GAME KEYS". Inside that window, at the top under "BG DISABLES :" you have 5 options. Click on each one and assign a key to it. I use 1 through 5. When in the game, you can pressed the corresponding key to enable/disable that layer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

And lastly, opening the savestate in a tile viewer to peek at vram - you can visually see all the tiles for the pipes and city are in 16color/4bit format. Mode 7 only uses 8bit/256color tile format (sprites are still 4bit/16color format, though).

---

Wait, I thought there was also the "sprite window" layer which is present in all graphics modes. (which is what I assume is providing the backdrop in mode 7 displays)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Wait, I thought there was also the "sprite window" layer which is present in all graphics modes. (which is what I assume is providing the backdrop in mode 7 displays)

---

Mode 7 is usually used as the backdrop, that can be scaled and rotated. You can see its use in full effect with Pilot Wings, where the ground scales in and out as you fly around it.

Like Tomaitheous pointed out, there are times when the effect is used to create a large rotating enemy and the background is usually black when this happens, since Mode 7 only supports one BG layer.

Can someone tell my what makes Alien 3 on the SNES so much better than the Genesis one???

I compared Street Fighter 2 Special Champion Edition to the SNES Street Fighter 2 Turbo...

Genesis version is way better.
Yes, the voices are scratchier, and sound effects are not quite as high quality...
But the music sounds much more like the arcade music (almost perfect)
The Genesis has the into with Balrog's cousin getting punched out, because someone said "I need a light!" and the white guy heard "Round one. Fight!" SNES is missing this intro.
The Genesis version has more detailed stages. For instance, Blanka's stage...in the SNES version, the fish just floats in the guys hut. But in the Genesis version, you see that the fish is tied with a rope to the guys ceiling.

The Genesis version of Street Fighter 2 Special Champion Edition (which is really Street Fighter 2 Turbo for those who don't already know) is also uncensored.
One example (and it may be the only one) Guile's stage remains uncensored and unedited...I'll let you guys figure that one out for yourselves. ; )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PimpUigi

I compared Street Fighter 2 Special Champion Edition to the SNES Street Fighter 2 Turbo...


The Genesis version has more detailed stages. For instance, Blanka's stage...in the SNES version, the fish just floats in the guys hut. But in the Genesis version, you see that the fish is tied with a rope to the guys ceiling.

---

The Genesis version also has static clouds in the background, while they are moving on the SNES. ;)

I'd say they are pretty even. It really depends on whether you like the twangy sound of the Genesis soundtrack, or the sampled sound of the SNES.

Sampled??
The SNES soundtrack sounds nothing like the CPS1 arcade music.
The Genesis instruments are extremely similar to the CPS1 arcade music. Which is why the soundtrack sounds almost perfect.

I don't see how it's pretty even when the SNES is missing so many blatantly obvious things.
The Guile stage and intro especially being huge differences...censorship just hurts Nintendo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gamevet

Mode 7 is usually used as the backdrop, that can be scaled and rotated. You can see its use in full effect with Pilot Wings, where the ground scales in and out as you fly around it.

Like Tomaitheous pointed out, there are times when the effect is used to create a large rotating enemy and the background is usually black when this happens, since Mode 7 only supports one BG layer.

---

No, I mean the far background like in Mario Kart: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVi8AiwKn3k (which is obviously outside the 128x128 mode 7 tile, similar with F-Zero, and Pilot Wings for that matter, the playfeild is the mode 7 tile, but the far background should be the window layer)

In the Bowser battle in SMW the balck BG seems to be true, but do note there's the castle mario's on in that case, which is probably the window layer. (though I suppose it could be made of sprites) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkofJRfNJgE
Bowser being done with mode 7 of course.