Genesis and SNES, which had better version of a game?

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Originally Posted by j_factor

Battletoads Double Dragon - Genesis
In the SNES version, the enemies are extremely aggressive. The game's hard enough as it is.

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Really? I found it to be more the opposite actually. I was able to finish the SNES version quite comfortably but got too irritated by the Genesis version to finish, so SNES version for me.

Rock n Roll Racing - SNES
Better graphics and considerably better sound.

Sparkster - Genesis
Actually, whilst neither is really as good as the original, the Genesis one feels more playable, even though the SNES one has some more interesting environments and designs.

Thunder Force III - Genesis
Much better gameplay and music compared to Thunder Spirits, which offered slowdown, a lack of autofire (even if you can unlock it later), and a stage shoehorned in from TFII that sticks out like a sore thumb.

Dragon Slayer 1 and 2 are much better on Mega Drive. The SFC versions look and sound like NES games.
Final Fight is better on Sega/Mega-CD
Popful Mail is better overall on Sega/Mega-CD.
Street Fighter II Turbo and SSFII are better overall on SNES. There are plenty of great controllers for both consoles.
Shining Force, SFII and SFCD all "pwn" Feda (and Fire Emblem for that matter).
Shin Megami Tensei is better on Mega-CD.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Yeah, you're right, this came up before, I remembered the games wrong. Odd thing is though, the SNES version of Turbo seems to have the same music as World Warrier, while the Genesis Turbo is altered compared to SCE (and generally poor compared to SCE).

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Although they sound similar, the soundtracks of the SNES versions of WW and Turbo are different.

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

Here is my take on SFII SCE (Gen) vs. Turbo (SNES). Bear in mind, I'm not looking to have the last word with any of this. A great deal of it is subjective, and there are probably some shortcomings in my explanations of the technical aspects of the comparison. Just take it for what it's worth, and if anyone has feedback, I welcome it, but please keep it constructive.

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Nice article. Some comments:

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

The SNES is generating sample-based music at 32kHz, in stereo. On the Genesis, the music is generated via FM synthesis, in monaural.

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While each individual channel of the Genesis six FM channels, four PSG channels and single PCM channel is generated in mono they end up being downmixed to two channels for stereo output.

You'll get stereo on model 1 hw via headphones out, stereo on all model 2 variants (including X'eye and CDX), and stereo on Nomad.

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

The nature of FM synthesis makes it difficult to discern what the exact playback rate is of the music on the Genesis.

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Some model 2 variants sound like 11khz. X'eye and CDX sound like 22khz. HDG model 1 variants with High Definition Graphics logo sound like 53khz - which is the actual playback rate of the chip.

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

Nevertheless, in order to get some indication of the relative playback quality of the music from both consoles, I took 44kHz digital recordings of select musical tracks directly from each console. I then progressively downsampled each recording until I could detect a significant loss in audio quality as compared to the original 44kHz recordings. As expected, the SNES audio quality began to degrade just below 32kHz. In addition, re-mixing the SNES music from stereo to mono substantially reduced it's dynamic quality. On the Genesis, I wasn't able to detect a qualitative loss until ~16kHz.

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Which indicates that you were using model 2 based hardware (which also includes the VA-7 model 1 lacking the High Definition Graphics logo).

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

In contrast, the voices on the Genesis are defined by FM parameters and retain a more synthetic quality.

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The Genesis has a PCM channel which is what is used for the voices. Since this channel does not support hardware compression like the SNES' ADPCM which provides a compression rate of exactly 4:1 with 16-bit recordings of all sample rates, the Genesis' voice samples are stored at something like 8-11khz or less @ 8-bit or 4-bit resolution to achieve a similar file size. The PCM channel itself isn't actually that limited in its capabilties.

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

However, the audio hardware of the Genesis and the CPS-1 board of the original arcade game are both based on FM synthesis, and that similarity made it possible for the arcade music to be directly ported to the Genesis. However, a limited number of available sound channels on the Genesis, as compared to the CPS-1 hardware of the arcade game, must have necessitated the removal of certain instruments when the music was ported to the Genesis.

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Something that I like about the Genesis versions of the music (and Genesis in general) is the sound of the Master System's sound chip (providing four additional PSG channels) which the Capcom guys put to good use in both Street Fighter ports (or actually all three of them if you count the beta).

I posted a few tunes I recorded via my HDG model 1 Genesis a while back: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showpos...5&postcount=56

I always felt that the Strike games were better on Genesis,
the game just felt.. rougher, which worked for those games.

compare the intro to Jungle Strike for example, Genesis version is heavy and exciting,
Snes version sounds very dull compared to that.

and gameplay wise the Genesis felt faster to me, more arcade like.

but thats just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

While each individual channel of the Genesis six FM channels, four PSG channels and single PCM channel is generated in mono they end up being downmixed to two channels for stereo output.

You'll get stereo on model 1 hw via headphones out, stereo on all model 2 variants (including X'eye and CDX), and stereo on Nomad.

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Thanks for the technical explanation. I'm aware that the Genesis is capable of stereo output; I've heard stereo effects in other games. But I can't hear any stereo effects in SFII: SCE. The output from the left and right channels sounds identical from both the headphone jack on a model 1 and a stereo AV cable on a model 2. That's why I described the output as monaural. Someone please correct me if they can identify anywhere in SFII: SCE edition where stereo effects are being generated.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

Some model 2 variants sound like 11khz. X'eye and CDX sound like 22khz. HDG model 1 variants with High Definition Graphics logo sound like 53khz - which is the actual playback rate of the chip.

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I find this aspect of the Genesis audio hardware to be very confusing. What I was trying to determine was the playback rate of the music in this particular game, not necessarily the Genesis' maximum capabilities in this area. Are you saying that the 53kHz rate is the universal playback rate of FM synthesis on the Genesis? I was under the impression that the playback rate could vary as determined by whatever sound driver was being employed. Could you clarify this for me?

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

Which indicates that you were using model 2 based hardware (which also includes the VA-7 model 1 lacking the High Definition Graphics logo).

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I have a HDG Model 1 and a VA 1.8 Model 2. I can certainly hear the differences between the two, but as I said in another thread here, the practical significance of those differences are, IMO, debatable. Nevertheless, I'll re-record some BGM tracks from both consoles and repeat my downsampling experiment and try for a greater measure of precision here.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

The Genesis has a PCM channel which is what is used for the voices. Since this channel does not support hardware compression like the SNES' ADPCM which provides a compression rate of exactly 4:1 with 16-bit recordings of all sample rates, the Genesis' voice samples are stored at something like 8-11khz or less @ 8-bit or 4-bit resolution to achieve a similar file size. The PCM channel itself isn't actually that limited in its capabilties.

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By voices here, I am referring to the instruments ("voices") played on the six (well, five) FM channels, not the actual sampled voices from the PCM. Nonetheless, thanks for the explanation because the details of what's going on with the PCM channel in SCE, particularly it's ability to playback concurrent samples, is something I'm not exactly clear on. Any ideas on the resolution or compression level used for the samples in this particular game?

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

Something that I like about the Genesis versions of the music (and Genesis in general) is the sound of the Master System's sound chip (providing four additional PSG channels) which the Capcom guys put to good use in both Street Fighter ports (or actually all three of them if you count the beta).

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What are some specific examples of what the PSG is being used for in these games. I've always wondered if the PSG wasn't used to generate some of the percussive effects (the snare drum, in particular) in Super Street Fighter II.

Thanks again for the feedback. :)

Night Driver, as I also mentioned in my reply on your review, TmEE's the guy to go to for the specifics.

It's intestering to note that the ASIC version of the YM2612 used in the model 2 (not VA-2) and VA-7 M1 is superior to a "real" 2612 in that the sampling frequency is higher and there's much less quantization noise. (with the ASIC having higher than the 9-bit output of a real YM2612)
Kind of ironic that most units featuing this got the poor mixing curcuits (or is it the amp?), anyway, that's part of the reason that a system with TmEE's mod is even clearer than an early model 1. (that and there's no headphone amp to go through) Of course, there's the VA-3/4 (and mono Genny 3) which have much cleaner output. (though not quite as good as with the mod)

As to the compression/DAC playback quality, it really does deped on how this are handled (both in the Z80 and the format the smaples are in). Of course, you're not going to go past the 8-bit limit of the DAC itsself, so the SNES has the advantage there, but a good 8-bit 22 kHz sample can sound great. (even 11 kHz tends to be fine) If the samples are 4-bit with low sample rate (to keep the size small with no compression), yeah, they'll sound like crap. (you can use compression though, it's just not a standard feature like the SNES's ADPCM -or TG-16's for that matter)
You loose resolution when using multiple channels as well (2 channels would be 7-bit I beleive), or changing volume. (in software, as there's no hadware support for either)

Again, my understanding is limited and others could explain things better, particularly TmEE.

OK. You're right, I don't want to sidetrack this thread into yet another discussion about the Genesis' audio capabilities, so I'll see about maybe filling in those details at a later time. They're not really important for my comparison anyway. I just wanted to make sure I hadn't said anything blatantly incorrect in regards to how SFII: SCE is using the Genesis audio hardware.

Back on topic...

PGA III (Genesis) > PGA '96 (SNES)

Despite their differing titles, these two are the same game. When PGA III was ported to the SNES, the title was changed to PGA '96. PGA '96 on the Genesis is an altogether different game.

This one isn't even close. PGA III on the Genesis represents the pinnacle of 16-bit golf games. On the SNES, most of the game's signature features have been stripped away, and the game crawls at a snails pace. Honestly, it's so slow, I find it unplayable.

NBA Jam- SNES > Genesis

SNES version's controls are a lot more comfortable thanks to the shoulder buttons, voices are clearer, and music's better.

What do shoulder buttons add to a game that only had three buttons to begin with?

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Originally Posted by j_factor

What do shoulder buttons add to a game that only had three buttons to begin with?

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For me it's always been easier to hold down the turbo button with my index finger while I pass and shoot with my thumb. The Genesis configuration has always felt awkward to me.

scooby doo was an adventure on the genesis and a platformer on the snes

raiden on the genesis had the side bar to keep the aspect ratio of the arcade version the snes had more vibrant colors

its hard to say which is better they are just different

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

Street Fighter II Turbo and SSFII are better overall on SNES. .

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I gotta disagree. The Genesis versions of Street Fighter were superior because they lacked the slowdown that plagued the SNES ones.

Yes, the sound was better on the SNES but gameplay is where it counts.

Can someone tell me about Super Double Dragon? Was it a good game?

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

For me it's always been easier to hold down the turbo button with my index finger while I pass and shoot with my thumb. The Genesis configuration has always felt awkward to me.

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It's the opposite for me. I've never had a problem holding down the B button and pressing A or C. I mean you have to do it in a lot of games. Do you have a hard time with Road Rash? On the other hand, I do have something of a hard time holding down L or R on the SNES pad, because the pad is so thin, and holding a shift button in makes for an awkward grip.

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Originally Posted by TheEdge

Can someone tell me about Super Double Dragon? Was it a good game?

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Super Double Dragon is excellent. One of my favorite beat 'em ups.

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Originally Posted by TheEdge

I gotta disagree. The Genesis versions of Street Fighter were superior because they lacked the slowdown that plagued the SNES ones.

Yes, the sound was better on the SNES but gameplay is where it counts.

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I've only ever heard this stated once or twice and both times in this forum. Are you talking about the PAL version or something? The only slowdown I've noticed in the arcade and console ports is when projectiles hit and after a final blow. It's all programmed in and isn't the result of taxing the hardware. The NTSC SNES versions certainly aren't "plagued" by it either.

World Warrior has significant slowdown when projectiles are fired. (the Genesis's SCE seems to have a little as well, but not nearly as much) The PCE version actually seems smoother in this respect than the genesis version, though I can't speak first hand for this port.(on real hardware at least)

The slowmo finish is intentional, granted, but I don't think anyone's refrencing this.