Genesis and SNES, which had better version of a game?

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Originally Posted by TheEdge

I gotta disagree. The Genesis versions of Street Fighter were superior because they lacked the slowdown that plagued the SNES ones.

Yes, the sound was better on the SNES but gameplay is where it counts.

Can someone tell me about Super Double Dragon? Was it a good game?

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Sound was better? what are you smoking? The Genesis and Arcade both used FM. I can't even stand the SNES version after playing it on the Genesis.

Super Double Dragon is OK. The environments are very interesting and had alot of interactivity IIRC. Compared to Streets of Rage or Final Fight CD, its a little stiff and unfairly hard (like most double dragons), but worth emulating for sure. If prices are still what they used to be, however, I would probably pass on a purchase.

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Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

Sound was better? what are you smoking? The Genesis and Arcade both used FM. I can't even stand the SNES version after playing it on the Genesis.

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I preferred the SNES version.

Everytime I played it in the arcades, you couldn't hear the music, so I never really knew what it sounded like. It wasn't until years later that I bought the Saturn and PSX Street Fighter compilations, that I'd heard the original arcade music and was somewhat disappointed with how hollow it sounded. I'd bought the Genesis version somewhere in between and thought it must have been a poor port of the music, since it had that twangy sound.

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Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

Sound was better? what are you smoking? The Genesis and Arcade both used FM. I can't even stand the SNES version after playing it on the Genesis.

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Comparing World Warrior (or Turbo) to Genesis's SCE, this is true (Genesis Turbo sounds a bit off), at least for music as the voices are rather poor on Genesis (and it's capable of better than that), though the PC Engine's Voices and digitized effects are better still. (some would even say Music)

Super SFII on the SNES otoh has great music (naturally, with the Arcade equivelent having sample based music), though depending on taste you may prefer SCE's FM (or even the PCE's music), definitely better than Genesis's SSFII though (rather poor FM aproximation), and again, Turbo on Genny is a bit off as well.

I think the SNES versions also use stereo effects while Genesis doesn't (at least SCE), though this may just be the particulars of the arcade versions they're based on.

I think that SCE has some of the best sounds, but the composition and often instrument balance is inconsistent. It would be the best overall with a little more polish. The more time passes, the less I enjoy SNES WW and Turbo music, especially the title screen farting. The PCE music is my favorite of any version as far as composition, but the sounds used could've been so much better.

Heh, too bad Guile's theme in SCE didn't sound like this: http://8bitcollective.com/items/music/GuileMD.mp3 (done by Tiido -TmEE)
I think that's one of the notable examples of WW's rendition sounding better than SCE's. (of course WW's Ken theme is one of the worst -though I think the Genesis Turbo ans SSFII versions might have actually been worse,or at least close)

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

This new knowledge reinforces my opinion that Capcom dropped the ball, more or less, when it came to the BGM in Super SFII.

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But why ? I don't think I posted any information that puts SSF2's music into a negative light - I am among the few that actually do enjoy the music in SSF2. It's different from SCE but that was different from Turbo as well. It actually reminds me of some of Technosoft's earlier work on the 2612. Compare Thunder Force III's Venus Fire with Guile's theme in SSF2.

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

Thanks. I'll check these out.

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Forget about Asterix. The game's superb but the music (while not terrible) is pretty much the worst part of the game.

Others I'd recommend: Psychic World, Golvellius, Fantasy Zone

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

I'll have to pay very close attention. Can you give me a specific example of a track that is doing this?

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All of those using FM leads I think. (I'll have to check that myself.)

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

That's essentially the same conclusion I reached in my comparison.

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Heh, that's true. - Well, I never said that I'd disagree with your article in general, just a few inaccuracies here and there caught my attention.

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Originally Posted by Night Driver

In general, I agree, but on some Super SFII tracks, the instruments and mixing are so poor (Cammy) that the Model 2 rendition is just easier on my ears.

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I always played Street Fighter on a model 1 Mega Drive so the model 2 recordings sound terrible to me. Distorted, tinny, muffled. No matter if SCE or SSF2, or any other game for that matter.

What happens on the technical side of things is that in a model 2 a good part of the higher frequencies are cut off, which does confirm your impression that a model 2 output can be downsampled to ~16khz without any noticable loss in quality (I assumed 11khz), while for a model 1 even CD quality recordings at 44khz/16-bit would mean a noticable loss in sound quality.
That also means that any frequencies that we percieve as irritating and/or too high pitched are cut off. If you'd downsample a model 1 recording of Cammy's theme to 11-16khz it would probably reproduce that effect.

^

at least I'm not the only one on here that thinks Super Street Fighter II's music for the Genesis sounds like ass compared to the base Street Fighter II which sounded like a Godly port of the arcade.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

But why ? I don't think I posted any information that puts SSF2's music into a negative light - I am among the few that actually do enjoy the music in SSF2. It's different from SCE but that was different from Turbo as well. It actually reminds me of some of Technosoft's earlier work on the 2612. Compare Thunder Force III's Venus Fire with Guile's theme in SSF2.

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No, you didn't say anything negative, but now that you've explained to me that there isn't anything in the Super SFII music that is "inferior", from a technical standpoint, relative to SCE, I'm less willing to excuse some of the things that I'm hearing. Again, I think the fundamental arrangements of the Super SFII tracks are impressive, especially when you consider that Capcom was attempting to replicate sample-based music. Nevertheless, the timbres of most of the instruments are horrible (IMO, at least), with many possessing buzzing or high-pitched squeaking qualities.

Ken's theme sounds nearly as awful as the SNES SFII Turbo rendition.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

Forget about Asterix. The game's superb but the music (while not terrible) is pretty much the worst part of the game.

Others I'd recommend: Psychic World, Golvellius, Fantasy Zone

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Thanks. I checked out your recommendations. I have a pretty good understanding now of the PSGs capabilities, and my ability to identify where the PSG is being used in the Street Fighter II games has improved.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

What happens on the technical side of things is that in a model 2 a good part of the higher frequencies are cut off, which does confirm your impression that a model 2 output can be downsampled to ~16khz without any noticable loss in quality (I assumed 11khz), while for a model 1 even CD quality recordings at 44khz/16-bit would mean a noticable loss in sound quality.
That also means that any frequencies that we percieve as irritating and/or too high pitched are cut off. If you'd downsample a model 1 recording of Cammy's theme to 11-16khz it would probably reproduce that effect.

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Thanks for the further explanation. I've been doing some additional downsampling experiments, and I have to revise my earlier estimate. I think the model 2 is doing slightly better than 16kHz. To my ear, it sounds like the model 2 (VA 1.8) isn't cutting off frequencies until the 18-20khz range.

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while for a model 1 even CD quality recordings at 44khz/16-bit would mean a noticable loss in sound quality.

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Noticeable loss? That, I highly doubt. If you could even hear the difference in frequency response between 22khz and ~25khz. And don't forget, the Genesis/Megadrive yamaha chip is digital, without any digital filtering. You're getting aliasing from the phase modulation synthesizing method which outputs on a fixed frequency... a relatively low fixed frequency. A low fixed frequency in comparison to say.. even PSG. Good/clean sounding PSG by emulation authors use band-limited step synthesis to produce rich/clean sounding PSG, without aliasing on a low-fixed frequency 44/48khz output of a PC sound card.

And that all assumes your speakers can every reliably output anything higher than 22khz frequency response accurately (i.e. amplitude level/difference).

My soundcard does 192khz/24-bit without aliasing/resampling. And I am using headphones.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

My soundcard does 192khz/24-bit without aliasing/resampling. And I am using headphones.

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And?

I can hear the difference between a 24-bit / 96khz recording and a downsampled version at 16 bit / 48khz.

Edit - okay, correction: I meant to say that I can hear a difference, not the exact difference.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

I can hear the difference between a 24-bit / 96khz recording and a downsampled version at 16 bit / 48khz.

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96khz sample rate has a max frequency response of 48khz. 48khz sample rate is 24khz max. You're telling me your head phones can produce a frequency response higher than 24khz!? Most off the shelf speakers peak at 20khz (and that's at very low decibel changes). I have a pair of Acoustic Research speakers with dual cones ($250 each) and they only peak out at 28khz (and that's at a small amplitude decibel range/difference). I think you're mistaking high frequency artifacting/noise as detail. The downsampling method also plays a part in aliasing and what frequencies are kept/preserved/pronounced (sample skip, average, weighted average, band-limited synthesis, etc - all kinds of methods).

These are my headphones: http://reviews.cnet.com/headphones/a...-31062024.html

I don't know why, but I do hear a difference between a 96khz recording and a 48khz recording. Pretty much like I do hear a difference between a 22khz recording and a 44khz recording.

Edit: I think this would explain it:

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

96khz sample rate has a max frequency response of 48khz. 48khz sample rate is 24khz max. You're telling me your head phones can produce a frequency response higher than 24khz!?

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Originally Posted by K 240 specifications

Response Bandwidth 15 - 25000 Hz

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This 1khz difference is the difference I hear between a 96khz recording and a 48khz recording ? If I had headphones that 'only' allowed 24khz I wouldn't hear any difference at all ?!


- Also, I heard that humans are supposed to hear only 14-20khz or something, yet a CD offers 44khz and is perceieved as superior to an LP or MP3.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

- Also, I heard that humans are supposed to hear only 14-20khz or something, yet a CD offers 44khz and is perceieved as superior to an LP or MP3.

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I think you might be confusing human hearing limitations of sounds at those frequencies rather than sample rates. (completely different things) With human hearing generally being limited to between 20 Hz and 20,000 Hz. (again this is frequency of a wave not at all related to sampling freqency of digital audio)