Just thought i'd say that I just finished this feature for my website as its kinda' pertaining to this thread
http://retro-sanctuary.com/16-bit%20...m-ups%201.html
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Just thought i'd say that I just finished this feature for my website as its kinda' pertaining to this thread
http://retro-sanctuary.com/16-bit%20...m-ups%201.html
No Raiden Trad (Genesis and SNES), Wings of Wor, Grind Stormer, Heavy Unit, Twin Hawk, Curse, Verytex, Blazeon, Rayxanber II, Rayxanber III, Super Darius, Super Darius II, Sagaia/Darius II, Twin Darius, Super Nova (Darius Force), Steel Empire, Arrow Flash, Granada, Atomic Robo Kid, Bio-Ship Paladin, Darwin 4081, Insector-X, Phelios, Sol-Deace/Sol-Feace, Task Force Harrier EX, Thunder Force II, Twin Cobra, Trouble Shooter, Battle Mania, Undeadline, Viewpoint, Fire Mustang, Master of Weapon, Earth Defense Force, The Earth Defend, XDR, Xenon 2, Mega Swiv/Firepower 2000, and the other missing shmups from that era?
For shaaaaaaame...
I just wrote a 50 game article and I can't believe I'm doing this :mad:
Super Raiden is on the list no need for those trash versionsQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Is a good game but does very little to make it worth mentioning as a stand out titleQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Is alright and I thought about adding it but didn't see it as being particularly amazingQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
are complete and utter shitQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
MEHQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Is ok but really doesn't belong on a list that already has Gunhed and Soldier BladeQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Are pretty mediocre tbh, though Rayxanber III was borderline, it's appaling sound effects were just enough to tip the scales and remove it from the listQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Darius games are the very definition of mediocrity, games with pathetic attack waves and even more pathetic weapons power-ups which lack any king of interesting features or strategy, you know its bad when the most striking element of a game is a gimmicky fish themeQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Nice theme, good game, shame the gameplay is very much standard fareQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Is not a scrolling shooter, and is already mentioned in my top down shooter section.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
are nothing specialQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
The top down levels are boring as hell and whats left over is done better in TFIV and TFIIIQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Is good, and nearly made the list but I didn't see it as being that up to date for a list of 4th generation shooters not to mention the fact I already had Super Raiden and Fire Shark on the list which are fairly similar games in theme and execution.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
These two are the same game :? and the sequel is betterQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Is overrated and well and truly falls into the realm of trial and error gameplayQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Does not fit the criteria as its a isometric gameQuote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Nearly made this list but tbh the levels are a bit dull and I feel it takes too long to power-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
You have some pretty seriously low standards, god I'd be wasting peoples time if I was like you :?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Like me, huh? Nice attitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by jesus.arnold
Every game I listed were all the 16-bit shmups I could think of offhand that weren't on your list. The reason, was that I thought you had made a list of the shmups in that era, not a "here's are the ones I like"-only list.
But hey, my bad :?
Forget about it, I should've been clearer about what it was about in the forward which I rushed, and I was pretty much on edge anyway tbh, I'm used to getting a lot of criticism when these things go up on my site, and i've pretty much got to the stage where I dread telling anyone they exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Pardon me, man, but that's one of the stupidest things I have ever read in these forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by jesus.arnold
If you don't like the "gimmicky fish theme" that's OK, I can't argue with that.
But I won't admit people trashing Darius games on the basis of "pathetic attack waves", "even more pathetic weapons power-ups" or "lack any king (!) of interesting features or strategy".
You'd rather thank gaming heaven that the MD ever got a port of Darius 2. And a great one at that matter.
Happily, knowledge of the Darius series' overwhelming mediocrity is pretty widespread in the gaming community and the series as a whole gets the lack of respect that it entirely deserves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kollision
How a high quality company like Taito churned out so many carbon copy Darius games with such a lack of any kind of improvement or implementation of new ideas is beyond me.
Though I haven't actually played the one on Saturn, which most people seem to state is the only Darius game worth playing so I'll reserve my judgement on the series as a whole until I've experienced that one.
The Darius games are among my favorite shmups. Especially Darius II on Mega Drive is excellent. In my opinion it's the best version of Darius II and among the very best Mega Drive games.
You probably played like five minutes at best.
So what is it that you like so much about the game? I beat it recently and thought it was pretty bland. Many levels play out the same way, the weapons are generic and graphically it's not far from the 8-bit generation. The pace is relatively slow as well.
I did like the theme though, and the music is pretty good. While it doesnt come close to pushing the hardware it has a fairly unique style and sets the mood well.
I'm getting more and more interested in the Shmup genre. Is there such a thing as a Sega Genesis/MD shmup anthology? On that same note, are there any shmup anthologies out there? (besides Raiden Fighter Aces, of course. I watched CGRHD's review on it. What an awesome anthology!)
[edit] Woa! I would've sworn I posted this under the old Shmup thread. Anyways, same question. :D
Well, if you get the two Taito Legends and Taito Legends 2 for the PC, you'll get a good number of shmups (old and newer) from Taito's lineup. And if you by the PS2 version of Taito Legends 2, you'll get four exclusive games not on the PC version (two of which are shmups). There are also a few shmup collections for the Saturn (Arcade Gears: Image Fight & X-Multiply, Gradius Deluxe Pack, Salamander Deluxe Pack Plus, Thunder Force Gold Pack 1 + 2, etc.), and the PS1 (The Raiden Project, R-Types, etc.) as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSciFi
Most of the shmups collections have stayed in Japan for the newer systems. The PS2 has a decent number of compilations (like the fantastic Sega Ages Vol. 33 Fantasy Zone Complete Collection, and a number of two-packs), and a shmup or two in the Taito Memories collections (ones like Darius II, which wasn't put into either "Legends" compilation), so you can check into that as well.
Excellent response man. Thanks. I think I'll start by looking up those Saturn anthologies.
God I wish I'd only played 5 minutes :D Forcing myself to play those games over and over whilst in the middle of playing like 50 other shmups consecutively was painful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
I'm quite happy with it the way it stands, the Master System version of Sagaia included in the 3rd generation list (Gameplay wise it certainly feels at home here with similar non-complicated games, and the graphics are great for an 8-bit system)
None in the 4th Generation/16-bit section as the Darius games are most certainly crude, basic and outdated in comparison to what should be expected of this era (shmups were tending to become more strategy orientated, their power-up systems more interesting as the earlier Gradius and R-Type had set the standards for this time, and more action and set-pieces were often included to ramp up the adrenaline so to speak)
I haven't played Darius Gaiden or G Darius yet so Its possible I might want to include them in a 5th Generation list
if I feel up for making a 32-bit list that is, as even though I'd already played maybe 1/2 of the 16-bit shmups already the list I just finished still took me well over a month and a half of constant shmup playing, i'm not sure that I can justify spending this much time anymore making lists that seem to be read by literally about 4 people, 3 of which don't like them :lol:
:oTheres no Cotton games on your list:o
I can't quite put my finger on it. It's the overall package, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alianger
Gameplay and graphics are pretty solid, but like you said: what really stands out is the general theme and the awesome soundtrack.
Aside of the original three monitor arcade version (which I never played on real hardware), I think that this is the best version of Darius II. The game was perfectly translated to the FM2612/PSG/PCM combo and 320x224 resolution that the Mega Drive offers. Other versions might have an advantage here and there (better colors, CDDA) but the combination of the game's setting + 320x224 redesign + 2612 music is a winner in my book.
I bought this game in early '93 (along with Thunder Force IV) and even after all these years I doubt I've seen all levels.
That's a bit of a stretch I think - unless you're talking PC Engine or arcade 8-bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alianger
Personally I really enjoy the graphics. In comparison to other games of its time (1990) I think that Darius looks pretty detailed and elegant. The only games with a similar level of detail/elegance would be Namco's Dangerous Seed & Phelios.
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3...dariusii19.png ( <- click me)
You probably could add Truxton to this comparison as it was released in late '89, only a few months before Darius.
- Also, isn't Mega Drive's graphics "8-bit" anyway ? (in regards to colors, not resolution obviously).
I disagree :?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alianger
Just the first level over the surface of the sun puts 80% of the MD shmup roster to shame. Especially during the boss fight. :)
Sincerely I can't understand the hate. Here's some pure awesomeness for the haters>
Whoah, I never noticed how small the bosses on the Mega Drive version were until just watching that video, the first boss at least is far smaller than the one in the 8-bit Master System version!?! though the MS version does remove the background but still, go Master System!
I'm in no way implying that the Master System version is better overall though, far from it.
Also I just noticed something that might interest some European Master System fans, I just compered the look of the bosses between MD and MS and the bosses on MS definately only look correct ratio wise on 50hz, so the entire game is actually aspect correct on PAL TV's but stretched on NTSC, which makes a serious change from the norm.
Great article!
Yeah I enjoyed this one, nice work :)
Honestly I've seen 8-bit games with better looking "sea of flames" backgrounds than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kollision
Apart from the bosses, nearly every sprite in the game is small, poorly animated and non descript. The backgrounds lack depth and variation, and I'm not impressed with most of the color choices either.
Many MD shooters look better I think. Gaiares, Elemental Master, TF2 & 3, Forgotten Worlds, MUSHA and Gynoug were all released around the same time or earlier.
I'm not a 'Darius hater' it's just nothing special to me.
Edit:
Or the above mentioned (Gynoug was a bit later I admit). That was kind of a selective comparison pic, but yes of course it looks better than Dangerous Seed or Fire Shark :) That side menu in DS sure is fugly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
I meant 8-bit as in that generation of home consoles, but I didn't consider that some of those games were released well after Darius 2. Games like Crisis Force, Parodius, Fantasy Zone 2, Power Strike 2, Gun Nac, Guardian Legend.
Name one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alianger
- aside of Darius II on Master System. (Yes, it's mighty impressive, no, it doesn't look better)
No it wasn't. I pretty much took the first screenshot I could find online. The goal was to find one of the first level of each game and I think that's what I achieved (aside of maybe Darwin 4081 [and Twin Hawk]).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alianger
The only thing I forgot was Gaiares and MUSHA Aleste, but those definitely are among the most beautiful shmups out there, so not really that fair. It definitely wasn't intentional though, I just didn't think of them as "Wait, weren't these 1990 too?" since they look more 1992/1993-ish.
Anyway, here it is again for those who missed it at the end of page1: http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3...dariusii19.png
Edit:Well, there's an insane amount of incredible MD shmups, all of which are of a similar quality. Darius II might not be that much better than the others since most of them are just about as awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alianger
Well, I already mentioned Life Force. There's also Ninja Gaiden 2, and probably a few more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
The comparison shows 2 pics from Darius, doesn't include some of the best looking games from the same time and it only shows the first levels. It's selective.
...Not fair because they look too good? uhm lol.
Not fair because they look exceptionally good. - I wasn't too serious about that... And I never claimed that Darius II would look better than the best looking shmup.
- It was you that said that "graphically it's not far from the 8-bit generation" which is what I tried to answer with above comparison of games that were released during the same year as when Darius II was released (1990).
And no, it is not selective on purpose. It compares the first level of each game and if you google for the screenshots you'll find the exakt same ones I used in no time.
EDIT:
And this post I made in the other shmup thread pretty much sums up all things I like about Darius II:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Yeah, I've read the thread too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
I already told you why it is selective, and you already told me that you didn't make it (which really doesn't matter anyway). The end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Oh, I see - I didn't notice this edit:
Well, Fantasy Zone II was released in 1987. - Anyway less talk, more shmups. Let's celebrate our existance with a round of Darius II, shall we ? =PQuote:
Originally Posted by Alianger
Seriously, I don't understand what the fascination with that first stage of Sagaia is, I'm sure that it was technologically impressive for the time or whatever but it certainly doesn't look graphically pleasing, it uses like 3 colours and is just the exact same backround repeating for the entire stage.
EDIT: Also thanks for the kind words on the article Beastech and Alianger, its appreciated.
jesus.arnold: Cool site! :D
What good is that resolution if the colors as minimal and the sprites are scaled down/tiny? The music itself is only average on this game/port (even if the music is close to the arcade. Haven't played the arcade in years). It's not that the port is bad, because it's not, it just comes out as basically average. I mean, the arcade had the gimmick of multiple screens. Take that away and the game loses its appeal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
The PCE version fixes this problem. No multiple screens, but upgraded sound track and much better graphics - larger sprites. A much better version (than the arcade version too), but still just a slightly above-average shmup IMO.
Screen shot attack!
PCE=left. MD=right.
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...E69F16-031.pnghttp://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...aiaUb1_036.gif
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...E69F16-063.pnghttp://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...aiaUb1_037.gif
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...E69F16-062.pnghttp://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...aiaUb1_038.gif
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...E69F16-025.pnghttp://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...aiaUb1_016.gif
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...E69F16-027.pnghttp://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...aiaUb1_015.gif
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...E69F16-044.pnghttp://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...aiaUb1_029.gif
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...E69F16-032.pnghttp://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...aiaUb1_012.gif
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...E69F16-060.pnghttp://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...aiaUb1_031.gif
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...E69F16-036.pnghttp://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...aiaUb1_021.gif
(Arcade)
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/im...s2_arc_map.png
(PCE)
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/im...s2_pce_map.png
(MD)
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/im...us2_md_map.png
Shots courtesy awack and BT.
wow... MD stuff is so tiny compared to the PCE version :shock:
The PCE CD port of Darius II seems to be a lot zoomed in.
There are people who prefer this version because of this and the rearranged soundtrack, but I also heard people saying that the gameplay isn't as good because of the zooming aspect, and that they still prefer the original tunes.
I'm about to receive Super Darius II in the mail this week, so I'll be able to see for myself how both versions compare to each other.
That's what happens when it's an 8Mb cart versus a CD.Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
I've seen plenty of 8meg carts on the Genesis with larger sprites than than. I think it was just a stylization choice. To come close/give it that expanded feel the arcade multiple monitor setup provided. But that's no excuse for the lack of color in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
8Mb, 28 levels, graphics for all those levels, bosses, enemies, music, sound effects... something had to be trimmed to get it all in there. Color was the most obvious choice. I also wouldn't be surprised if the smaller sprites was to try and cut back on slowdown/flicker (not to mention, the Genesis was on the receiving end of a healthy amount of sprite shrinkage over the years), on top of saving space.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
Thanks a lot for the screenshots! The PCE version looks very nice. :)
The advantage is that they squeezed the entire original game into one 320x240 screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
If you ever played the Saturn version (which is an arcade perfect port that runs at 640x480i) you'll notice that this is a huge advantage over other possible methods to squeeze the arcade original onto one screen.
The Saturn port allows you to choose between three screen settings: one is the original resolution on a single 4:3 screen, much like the PCE version. And like the PCE version it looks awesome with its huge and detailed sprites - but the downside is that you can't see what's ahead and your playfield is reduced to a few pixels.
The other settings are closer to the Mega Drive variant with the game being zoomed out a bit and being zoomed out as far as possible displaying the entire game on one 640x480 screen.
The downside is that unlike with the Mega Drive version the sprites are rescaled in real-time, and not redrawn which looks pretty much unacceptable.
With the Mega Drive version they choose a perspective that is something inbetween the zoomed out modes that the Saturn offers, and redrew the entire game to match this perspective.
The music on the Mega Drive version actually is better than the arcade version - aside of the missing PCM voice samples obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
Yeah, something always gets trimmed down in the process. But most of the levels just have small repeating parts and/or reuse other level tiles. Enemies are reused a lot too. I still think it was a style decision. The smaller sprites do give it a closer feel to the arcade. That open-ness. The lack of color on the other hand, is just "laziness" on the graphic artists part. I don't throw around that term "lazy coder/artists" lightly/without care. It's not like using a few more colors in a tile is going to ramp up cart size. And given the small amount of tiles they use per level, they could have done better than 2bit tiles in areas. Or at least expanded the palette usage <- that's almost free of rom space right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Interesting. I never played the Saturn port.Quote:
The Saturn port allows you to choose between three screen settings: one is the original resolution on a single 4:3 screen, much like the PCE version. And like the PCE version it looks awesome with its huge and detailed sprites - but the downside is that you can't see what's ahead and your playfield is reduced to a few pixels.
The other settings are closer to the Mega Drive variant with the game being zoomed out a bit and being zoomed out as far as possible displaying the entire game on one 640x480 screen.
The downside is that unlike with the Mega Drive version the sprites are rescaled in real-time, and not redrawn which looks pretty much unacceptable.
With the Mega Drive version they choose a perspective that is something inbetween the zoomed out modes that the Saturn offers, and redrew the entire game to match this perspective.
I don't doubt that. It seems to be the trend for arcade ports of FM music to Genesis. Almost always seems to sound better on the Genesis.Quote:
The music on the Mega Drive version actually is better than the arcade version - aside of the missing PCM voice samples obviously.
Yeah - it looks nice, but I still only rate it as an average/slightly-above-average game. Music is great IMO - love the guitar work. But the game plays much different than the Genesis version - as you've probably already noticed by the layout in those screen shots. I can see why some Darius fans might not like it as much. It doesn't have that exact Darius feel. It's also easier than the Genesis version. BITD when I bought this new import for $80+, I wasn't disappointed.Quote:
Thanks a lot for the screenshots! The PCE version looks very nice.
I dunno what's going on in this thread. But I like Sagaia.