Official Nintendo Wii Thread

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10-22-2009, 08:17 PM
MrMatthews

17days, I kinda-sorta agree with you. Americans deserve a US release of MMWW. Clearly Mega Man is marketable here in the states and I KNOW Capcom hears the demand for it. I don't know why they haven't released it already in some form or another - why not a multiplat release via VC/XBLA/PSN?

I'm sure there's a solid reason why it's not available, just as I'm sure said reason is beyond Nintendo's control.

Same with StarFox. StarFox 64 is already available, so logically the original should have been released by now, as well. Maybe Nintendo is sitting on it, hoping to use it to help promote a StarFox Wii game (which won't ever come). Of course, I had the same theory about the original Super Mario Kart and Smash Bros...

Thing is, I know you've hated Nintendo ever since they killed your wife and child and left you for dead, but it's a little silly to automatically blame them for every situation just because YOU don't understand it. Nintendo knows where the money is and where to find it; I'm sure their reasons for not doing so are a little broader than simply to piss you off.

Oh, and to ALL VC haters: let's not forget that all three companies are offering retro games via digital distribution - at the same price, too. It's industry-standard, folks.
10-22-2009, 08:29 PM
Knuckle Duster

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheEdge

I agree....of course. I don't understand why people LOVE getting ripped off. GameVets and I were just talking about how easy it is to either burn a Emulator and play it in your Dreamcast or connect your laptop (Tower) to your TV.

It's absolute undeniable common sense. For anyone actually DEFENDING these lazy shit companies your just crazy.....

Regarding Sega, I'm very upset that Sega is following in Nintendo's Nickel and Dime-ing footsteps. Sega holds the world record for rehashing their old shit and that's fine as long as its in physical form. Once you get into this "Digital Download" crap then your going down a dangerous path. The only good thing that is coming out of the PlaySega website rip off thing is that with a subscription you get a free "Saturn-esq" USB 6-button controller.

:rofl: Rationals +1 ..............Peanut Gallery - 10,000

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

The sole purpose of the VC is to allow Nintendo to bitch about ROMs on the internet, period. That and to exploit people that don't know how cheap the real thing is (if they can't handle PC emulators for some reason). If they were looking for another selling point, they would've made it $1-$2 a game, free via ads, or through a cheap XBOX Live-esque subscription fee like it should be. MMWW is probably not released because of some odd legal trouble or because of a very mistaken idea that people wouldn't be interested, or most likely because they don't want to sell a game for $8 that sells for $15 if bought separately on the NES VC, the same reason we probably won't see Mario All-Stars. I really wish the Mega Man Anthology for PS2 had MMWW, that would've made it perfect.

What about Bungie? All of the old Marathon games are free. Lots of PC companies release them. Rockstar did the same thing with the original Grand Theft Auto as well.

Any legal problems with Argonaut are bullshit unless it has to do with the core code of the game. Emulators are not illegal and Nintendo should own the rights to the game, so unless there was some contractual agreement, there shouldn't be a problem. I bet more than anything they just figure no one would care about Super FX games because the novelty is gone since they represent technically some of the worst 3D games ever made (that said, I love them and own all of the US released ones, several CIB). We may still enjoy them with our retro eyes, but I imagine most people would rather shit on them than play them.

I wouldn't go out of my way to defend an 'expensive service' vs 'emulation.' I would however state my opinion on the matter of how that service 'makes sense' and is 'justified' if it is true.

The thing I don't understand is the perpetual need of some people here to derail any discussion regarding Wii into a bitchfest moan-zone of epic failure.

We've been over the VC price debate numerous times, & the pros & cons of ownership or service usage. Yet here we are again thanks to a few primates, (not the internal variety, mind you), who feel the argument is valid enough to raise once more, due to a belief of self entitlement influenced by the aftermarket.

It's been stated that Nintendo relies on the casual games market, and impulse buys for the VC/WiiWare. They've explored the options here & set prices accordingly.

It sells, and there is no need to adapt with cheaper prices. How are we certain that by lowering prices they would make more money? Compare it to a smartphone's app store?

No, not every Wii owner uses the wii shop, and not every one who does is using credit cards to buy points impulsively. There's also multiple parties involved in the software licensing itself that need to sign off on it, or worse, want 'a larger cut' of the profit, making the effort pointless.

Paying 1, 5, or 10 bucks for a VC title makes no difference to the fundamental nerd-rage driven logic being expressed here over and over again.

Feeling entitled to 'Free Games' because they're 'Old and Irrelevant' while willing to compromise & forgive $1 or $2 prices is bad enough, but to superfluously cry all the time about $5 & $8 impulse buys as 'Rip offs' is ridiculous.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/me...stfucookie.jpg

I will say it again:
This thread was intended as a heads up to those who use the service, so they don't miss out on an opportunity, pointing that out doesn't make me 'A dick'.

Intentionally posting an argument knowing it's off topic & only bound for conflict is trolling, so "who's the dick here?"
If you want to shit your pants over the existence of the Virtual Console, hit the 'New Topic' button and have at it.

Hopefully a mod will trim the fuck out of this thread in the process or simply lock it.
10-22-2009, 09:35 PM
17daysolderthannes

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMatthews

17days, I kinda-sorta agree with you. Americans deserve a US release of MMWW. Clearly Mega Man is marketable here in the states and I KNOW Capcom hears the demand for it. I don't know why they haven't released it already in some form or another - why not a multiplat release via VC/XBLA/PSN?

I'm sure there's a solid reason why it's not available, just as I'm sure said reason is beyond Nintendo's control.

Same with StarFox. StarFox 64 is already available, so logically the original should have been released by now, as well. Maybe Nintendo is sitting on it, hoping to use it to help promote a StarFox Wii game (which won't ever come). Of course, I had the same theory about the original Super Mario Kart and Smash Bros...

Thing is, I know you've hated Nintendo ever since they killed your wife and child and left you for dead, but it's a little silly to automatically blame them for every situation just because YOU don't understand it. Nintendo knows where the money is and where to find it; I'm sure their reasons for not doing so are a little broader than simply to piss you off.

Oh, and to ALL VC haters: let's not forget that all three companies are offering retro games via digital distribution - at the same price, too. It's industry-standard, folks.

If they can't get MMWW for some reason or another (I really bet it's more to do with the all-in-one nature or undermining the NES version than just not being able to get it), that's fine, but VC thus far has not really done anything positive for the market, just like the Wii in general. I'm sorry, is it a crime not to like the way a service works? Weren't you the one bitching that the iPhone sucks because AT&T charges too much? same thing. Furthermore, the existence of VC further destroys the positive and preservative intentions of the ROM community by implying they are pirates/bandits out to steal rather than individuals trying to secure these games for future generations. For all we know, VC might just be Nintendo buying up old cartridges and dumping the ROMs and getting whatever licensing is necessary to sell them. We all seem to think these places have these mega storage places with mountains of everything they've ever made, but the reality is that they might keep one copy of a game and if that gets lost or damaged, that's it. Writing off homebrew ROMs and emulation as plain ol piracy is like calling xeroxed copies of Einstein's journal plagiarism or intellectual property theft. These games need to be preserved and unless we can count on these companies to employ a Fort Knox-like protection plan to ensure they are around forever, I would rather let those that care handle it and distribute it to as many people as there are hard drives to store them on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster

I wouldn't go out of my way to defend an 'expensive service' vs 'emulation.' I would however state my opinion on the matter of how that service 'makes sense' and is 'justified' if it is true.

The thing I don't understand is the perpetual need of some people here to derail any discussion regarding Wii into a bitchfest moan-zone of epic failure.

We've been over the VC price debate numerous times, & the pros & cons of ownership or service usage. Yet here we are again thanks to a few primates, (not the internal variety, mind you), who feel the argument is valid enough to raise once more, due to a belief of self entitlement influenced by the aftermarket.

It's been stated that Nintendo relies on the casual games market, and impulse buys for the VC/WiiWare. They've explored the options here & set prices accordingly.

It sells, and there is no need to adapt with cheaper prices. How are we certain that by lowering prices they would make more money? Compare it to a smartphone's app store?

No, not every Wii owner uses the wii shop, and not every one who does is using credit cards to buy points impulsively. There's also multiple parties involved in the software licensing itself that need to sign off on it, or worse, want 'a larger cut' of the profit, making the effort pointless.

Paying 1, 5, or 10 bucks for a VC title makes no difference to the fundamental nerd-rage driven logic being expressed here over and over again.

Feeling entitled to 'Free Games' because they're 'Old and Irrelevant' while willing to compromise & forgive $1 or $2 prices is bad enough, but to superfluously cry all the time about $5 & $8 impulse buys as 'Rip offs' is ridiculous.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/me...stfucookie.jpg

I will say it again:
This thread was intended as a heads up to those who use the service, so they don't miss out on an opportunity, pointing that out doesn't make me 'A dick'.

Intentionally posting an argument knowing it's off topic & only bound for conflict is trolling, so "who's the dick here?"
If you want to shit your pants over the existence of the Virtual Console, hit the 'New Topic' button and have at it.

Hopefully a mod will trim the fuck out of this thread in the process or simply lock it.

First of all, my first comment was obviously meant as comedic garnish for a thread that served no purpose other than a simple "heads up." The picture of Hermes certifying my mandatory VC hate just further solidified my meme-esque hatred of the Wii, again, which was mostly just to get a quick laugh. Other people felt the need to butt in and it went from there. Seriously, what did you want out of this thread? "OMG! KNUCKLE DUSTER! CAN I SUCK YOUR PENIS! YOU SAVED MY LIFE!"?

Price makes a huge difference. Initially, I didn't like the idea of buying games for the iPhone because they are just digital downloads, but once I realized I could spend about $100 and have a phone full of games, it didn't really bother me much. Even if I just played them for a day or two, it was only 99¢, so who cares?

Oh, and for the record, Sega Genesis games on the iPhone are mostly $5, $3 cheaper than Wii, so what's your excuse again? Why does the fact that the iPhone is a phone disqualify it's very similar emulation-on-demand service from comparison? The iPod Touch can very easily be compared to a PSP or DS and if the new commercial have any bearing, I believe they may even start going out of their way to cater towards games now. Also, I trust Apple to back their products more than Nintendo. Historically, Apple has been very good about supporting what they sell for as long as possible, Nintendo tends to forget it like a bad night of drinking. I'm not going to chance shelling out $5 a pop for NES games on a service that may disappear and leave me unable to access the games I rightfully own and paid for. If they work out a system that guarantees me these games as long as I live, I will consider changing my opinion, though I still think the prices are a bit high.

Also, how do you know the Wii VC is selling at its maximum potential? Everyone I have spoken to about this agrees they would buy substantially more games if they were $1-$2 a piece. Last I checked, 100 $1 games is more money than 2 $5 games. Some of it might be that they assume people only want to buy ~5 games they owned as a kid, which may have some truth, but the more people that share my jaded attitude towards modern gaming, the more that will seek out retro games and are more likely to pay Nintendo $1 a game than go through the trouble to try to find out how to mod an XBOX and download them on torrents, whereas at $5 a game they might see the XBOX as worth the trouble. A cheap VC might also help make the Wii the phantom seller it was from launch until a few months ago.

If people want to pay too much for these games for the sake of convenience, I don't have a problem, but if this is ammo in Nintendo's cannon to start firing on ROM sites that are trying to preserve the games that we all know and love, then I have a problem. Intellectual property lawsuits are all about claiming monetary damages. Before VC, there was nothing to really claim because they weren't being sold. After VC, they can probably claim alot. So, perhaps my dislike is unnecessary right now, but when you find ROMs as hard to get as an XBOX 360 game, you'll know why. And when these cartridges start dying and getting thrown out (caps are bound to go bad someday) and the companies responsible lose their own copy, you'll see why I feel Nintendo is killing the dinosaurs here.
10-22-2009, 09:37 PM
havok666

Why does 17days always have to derail perfectly fine threads with his pro emulation bullshit? If you like emulation go join a fucking emulation forum.

SEGA-16 is for gamers not some fucking ROM fanboy.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16.../arigtfo-1.gif
10-22-2009, 10:21 PM
Melf

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

Furthermore, the existence of VC further destroys the positive and preservative intentions of the ROM community by implying they are pirates/bandits out to steal rather than individuals trying to secure these games for future generations. For all we know, VC might just be Nintendo buying up old cartridges and dumping the ROMs and getting whatever licensing is necessary to sell them. We all seem to think these places have these mega storage places with mountains of everything they've ever made, but the reality is that they might keep one copy of a game and if that gets lost or damaged, that's it.

While on your white knight quest to preserve our gaming heritage for future generations, you forget one simple thing: these games are intellectual properties owned by their respective companies, and said companies can do whatever they want with them. They don't owe you the games, the right to access them, or a decent price. They can release whatever they want at whatever price they want because THE GAMES BELONG TO THEM. Nintendo, Sega, and other publishers are under no obligation to you or anyone else.

Yes, it's unfortunate that they charge what they do, but the fact that people are buying them means that there's a demand, which in turn means that these games will continue to appear in the future. The whole "I can emulate for free, so anything more than that is too expensive" argument is pure bullshit. You're emulating someone else's property, and like it or not, they have a right to decide how that property is handled and how much it should cost. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

Quote:

I'm not going to chance shelling out $5 a pop for NES games on a service that may disappear and leave me unable to access the games I rightfully own and paid for. If they work out a system that guarantees me these games as long as I live, I will consider changing my opinion, though I still think the prices are a bit high.

I know. I shouldn't go and spend $60 on a PS3 or DS game because it won't work 10 years from now. Seriously, are you thinking this? Is there actually a medium today that guarantees that your games/movies/music collection will be available to you for as long as you live? I doubt anyone considers that the VC should be the main body of their retro gaming collection, forever preserved. 10 years from now, people will be buying these games again on a new service or in new compilations, or by downloading them to their phone.

Quote:

Also, how do you know the Wii VC is selling at its maximum potential? Everyone I have spoken to about this agrees they would buy substantially more games if they were $1-$2 a piece. Last I checked, 100 $1 games is more money than 2 $5 games. Some of it might be that they assume people only want to buy ~5 games they owned as a kid, which may have some truth, but the more people that share my jaded attitude towards modern gaming, the more that will seek out retro games and are more likely to pay Nintendo $1 a game than go through the trouble to try to find out how to mod an XBOX and download them on torrents, whereas at $5 a game they might see the XBOX as worth the trouble. A cheap VC might also help make the Wii the phantom seller it was from launch until a few months ago.

This argument reminds me of when former president Bush went to Saudia Arabia two years ago to request an increase in oil production to bring down the price of gas. The king told him "no" flat out. OPEC is happy if oil sells for $75 a barrel, and they were selling them at the time for $130. Why the hell would they takes steps to drop the price if it was selling? Why would Nintendo drop the price of its VC games to almost nothing if people are willing to pay the current prices?

And honestly, those who go and mod an Xbox and get ROMS via torrents don't generally do so because of the prices on the VC. Anyone who goes through that much trouble wants a lot of games and doesn't want to pay for them. They'd pirate regardless.

Quote:

Before VC, there was nothing to really claim because they weren't being sold. After VC, they can probably claim alot.

What about the shit ton of retro compilations that were released on just about every console since the PS1 and Saturn? Namco Museum, Midway Arcade Treasures, Capcom Classics Collection, Sega Smash Pack - all of those are pre-VC.

The VC just made it really easy for casual gamers to find ROMS, that's all. The people downloading these games probably have no clue how to mod an Xbox or jailbreak their iPhone. You look, you click, you play. It's a ROM service modeled to cater to the Wii audience.
10-22-2009, 10:59 PM
InternalPrimate

Well Ken deserves a big old +1.
10-22-2009, 11:27 PM
Da_Shocker

So how bout MMWW? And while we are bitching about shit YTF did Capcom make MM9 like an NES game? WTF is up wit that?
10-22-2009, 11:53 PM
MrMatthews

Mega Man 9 was made for the people who loved the classic Mega Man games, pure and simple. It's incredibly cliche, but MM9 is "a love letter to the fans."
10-23-2009, 12:39 AM
kool kitty89

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

Any legal problems with Argonaut are bullshit unless it has to do with the core code of the game. Emulators are not illegal and Nintendo should own the rights to the game, so unless there was some contractual agreement, there shouldn't be a problem. I bet more than anything they just figure no one would care about Super FX games because the novelty is gone since they represent technically some of the worst 3D games ever made (that said, I love them and own all of the US released ones, several CIB). We may still enjoy them with our retro eyes, but I imagine most people would rather shit on them than play them.

I really don't know the specifics, but I doubt it would be the "poor graphics" thing as they added SNES style Star Fox mini game stages in WarioWare: Smooth Moves. (where you fight ROB armmed with a zapper as the end boss)
10-23-2009, 12:49 AM
17daysolderthannes

Quote:

Originally Posted by havok666

Why does 17days always have to derail perfectly fine threads with his pro emulation bullshit? If you like emulation go join a fucking emulation forum.

SEGA-16 is for gamers not some fucking ROM fanboy.

What? 659 REAL PHYSICAL LEGITIMATE STORE BOUGHT GAMES IN MY POSSESSION? I must never buy the real thing :daze: ...

Last I checked, this was a forum about Genesis video game discussion. Baloo recently reviewed Genesis Tetris, I'll bet you $10 he doesn't own a copy, so therefore emulation is the only way he could've played it. Recently, our members were going ga ga over a USB flashcart.

So again, where does it say this forum doesn't support emulation/roms?

You're a fucking douche, you're worse than Metal Sonic and Knuckle Duster. If I was anti-ROM, you would be telling me how stupid I was for not emulating. DIAF.

If I find it more convenient to emulate the games I own and am legally entitled to, that's my perogative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

While on your white knight quest to preserve our gaming heritage for future generations, you forget one simple thing: these games are intellectual properties owned by their respective companies, and said companies can do whatever they want with them. They don't owe you the games, the right to access them, or a decent price. They can release whatever they want at whatever price they want because THE GAMES BELONG TO THEM. Nintendo, Sega, and other publishers are under no obligation to you or anyone else.

Yes, it's unfortunate that they charge what they do, but the fact that people are buying them means that there's a demand, which in turn means that these games will continue to appear in the future. The whole "I can emulate for free, so anything more than that is too expensive" argument is pure bullshit. You're emulating someone else's property, and like it or not, they have a right to decide how that property is handled and how much it should cost. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

I know. I shouldn't go and spend $60 on a PS3 or DS game because it won't work 10 years from now. Seriously, are you thinking this? Is there actually a medium today that guarantees that your games/movies/music collection will be available to you for as long as you live? I doubt anyone considers that the VC should be the main body of their retro gaming collection, forever preserved. 10 years from now, people will be buying these games again on a new service or in new compilations, or by downloading them to their phone.

This argument reminds me of when former president Bush went to Saudia Arabia two years ago to request an increase in oil production to bring down the price of gas. The king told him "no" flat out. OPEC is happy if oil sells for $75 a barrel, and they were selling them at the time for $130. Why the hell would they takes steps to drop the price if it was selling? Why would Nintendo drop the price of its VC games to almost nothing if people are willing to pay the current prices?

And honestly, those who go and mod an Xbox and get ROMS via torrents don't generally do so because of the prices on the VC. Anyone who goes through that much trouble wants a lot of games and doesn't want to pay for them. They'd pirate regardless.

What about the shit ton of retro compilations that were released on just about every console since the PS1 and Saturn? Namco Museum, Midway Arcade Treasures, Capcom Classics Collection, Sega Smash Pack - all of those are pre-VC.

The VC just made it really easy for casual gamers to find ROMS, that's all. The people downloading these games probably have no clue how to mod an Xbox or jailbreak their iPhone. You look, you click, you play. It's a ROM service modeled to cater to the Wii audience.

I never said Nintendo owes it to me to sell these games a certain price, only voicing my personal stance that they are charging more than I'm willing to pay for a volatile download with hazy future preservation potential.

Why won't you be able to play your $60 PS3 game 10 years from now? If you take care of your shit, you'll be able to play it for years on the real hardware and then later on a computer via an emulator with the game disc. Even if your game disc stops working, you still have an undeniable proof of purchase. Wii VC won't even give you an ownership card.

It's not so much the price I object to as the lack of sufficient proof of future ownership. FORCING someone to buy the same thing over and over again is complete and total bullshit and I will NEVER support that. At least when you re-buy a Blu Ray movie you get additional features and improved quality, exactly what is improved about Super Mario 3 on Wii VC? They don't even have online 2 player, a feature that would make me pile VC games onto my Wii, so what's the point of buying something that costs more than a cartridge and may not entitle you to the game indefinitely?

OK, retro compilations are a valid point...and you know what? I buy those. I have lots of them actually. Know why? A) they are an infinitely better value than the VC and B) they are a physical product that is a proof of purchase in and of itself.

If buying a Wii VC game meant they would send me a credit card-like ownership card saying "u OWn DiZ GAumE FurEvAR!" I would be OK spending $5 a pop because I knew I would always be able to download it onto future systems or transfer it. But it doesn't work that way, it's a huge step back and everyone that supports it is just letting the intellectual property bullies shove their dicks up our asses another inch. If this shit keeps happening at this rate, before you know it we won't be able to show clips of a movie in reviews or mimic copyrighted material for parody. There is a much bigger implication than just some convenient ROMs for the masses, you're openly accepting that you're paying money and literally getting an imaginary product with no proof you ever paid for it. Just genius.

Oh, and that Bush analogy proves you are a fairly terrible and selfish human being. Just because you can exploit people for more money doesn't mean you should. I do stuff for free for people all the time. I have made dozens of youtube videos and I have never tried to make a single cent off of them. If I ever did try to pursue some intellectual property entertainment career, I would work on the Adam Carolla Podcast model and just incorporate an advertisement for a PHYSICAL product into the program to cover the cost of production/my salary. I would supplement that income with live performances (if applicable) and selling physical related merchandise for people that wanted them. I know why you're so opposed to what I'm saying, it's because you are trying to have some sort of intellectual property based career and you want to bully your way into a paycheck. Get a real job. I design engineering equipment that gets manifested into a PHYSICAL product, if a university wanted to use one of my designs for a non-profit project, I wouldn't hesitate to let them use it. If money is changing hands, the intellectual property owners should be paid, if no money is involved, you shouldn't have a problem with it. You know why? I'm not a money grubbing sleezy douche.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

So how bout MMWW? And while we are bitching about shit YTF did Capcom make MM9 like an NES game? WTF is up wit that?

To appease a misplaced desire from the Mega Man fanbase. If it was actually programmed in 6502 and released as a true NES VC game, I would've respected it, but the end product was really just a lazy cop out that got way more respect than it deserved. The real NES Mega Man games were way better.
10-23-2009, 12:56 AM
17daysolderthannes

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

I really don't know the specifics, but I doubt it would be the "poor graphics" thing as they added SNES style Star Fox mini game stages in WarioWare: Smooth Moves. (where you fight ROB armmed with a zapper as the end boss)

But A) that was a nod to Super NES fans B) they sped it up to 60 FPS and was actually completely re-made

If they released Star Fox and made the framerate true to the original version, it would not appeal to many (most?) people. On the other hand, even I might shell out if they made a 60 FPS version, that would be AWESOME.
10-23-2009, 01:01 AM
MrMatthews

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

Weren't you the one bitching that the iPhone sucks because AT&T charges too much?

You must be thinking of someone else, because I've never bitched about AT&T's prices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

If it was actually programmed in 6502 and released as a true NES VC game, I would've respected it

Let me get this straight: because MM9 was only made to look like an NES game but wasn't actually an NES game, that means it's a cheap knock-off or something? It wasn't a "real" Mega Man game?

I hope I just misunderstood you, because that's . . . well, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
10-23-2009, 01:08 AM
17daysolderthannes

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMatthews

Let me get this straight: because MM9 was only made to look like an NES game but wasn't actually an NES game, that means it's a cheap knock-off or something? It wasn't a "real" Mega Man game?

Sure, it's a Mega Man game, but it's also lazy and a pointless gesture. A big part of what makes retro games special (to me anyway) is the difficulty in overcoming the limitations of the hardware to make a game. When you remove that, you could probably make many NES games in an afternoon if the graphics were already drawn. Saying Mega Man 9 is acceptable when programmed in a modern programming language is like saying a 20 year old deserves praise for winning a race against 5 year olds.

Would you have preferred the NiGHTS into Dreams sequel to be made to look like the Saturn game complete with pixelated pre-rendered 2D sprites instead of hardware pushing modern 3D graphics? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most people like Mega Man Wily Wars and Mario All-Stars better than the originals because of the improved graphics? I appreciate what they were trying to do, but they half-assed it like a tuner car with a body kit painted in primer.
10-23-2009, 01:12 AM
Knuckle Duster

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

Sure, it's a Mega Man game, but it's also lazy and a pointless gesture. A big part of what makes retro games special (to me anyway) is the difficulty in overcoming the limitations of the hardware to make a game. When you remove that, you could probably make many NES games in an afternoon if the graphics were already drawn. Saying Mega Man 9 is acceptable when programmed in a modern programming language is like saying a 20 year old deserves praise for winning a race against 5 year olds.

Would you have preferred the NiGHTS into Dreams sequel to be made to look like the Saturn game complete with pixelated pre-rendered 2D sprites instead of hardware pushing modern 3D graphics? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most people like Mega Man Wily Wars and Mario All-Stars better than the originals because of the improved graphics? I appreciate what they were trying to do, but they half-assed it like a tuner car with a body kit painted in primer.

http://4gifs.com/gallery/d/126838-1/Fulloffuck.jpg

"Game Design" has something to do with it, genius.

Leave it to an apple fanboy to be pompous enough to think writing any form of software, be-it entertainment or utility, does 'not' require planned design.
10-23-2009, 01:14 AM
MrMatthews

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

Sure, it's a Mega Man game, but it's also lazy and a pointless gesture. A big part of what makes retro games special (to me anyway) is the difficulty in overcoming the limitations of the hardware to make a game. When you remove that, you could probably make many NES games in an afternoon if the graphics were already drawn. Saying Mega Man 9 is acceptable when programmed in a modern programming language is like saying a 20 year old deserves praise for winning a race against 5 year olds.

Would you have preferred the NiGHTS into Dreams sequel to be made to look like the Saturn game complete with pixelated pre-rendered 2D sprites instead of hardware pushing modern 3D graphics? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most people like Mega Man Wily Wars and Mario All-Stars better than the originals because of the improved graphics? I appreciate what they were trying to do, but they half-assed it like a tuner car with a body kit painted in primer.

I think you're completely missing the point of Mega Man 9. Capcom was basically thumbing its nose at the current generation of graphics whores and saying, "See, this is what games used to be like! They were blocky and tough as nails! And we liked it that way!"

Funny that passed over your head, since that seems to be your MO, for the most part.

And anyone who prefers MMWW over the originals is a complete graphics whore (and a fool), since that's the only thing it has over the NES versions.
10-23-2009, 01:24 AM
17daysolderthannes

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMatthews

I think you're completely missing the point of Mega Man 9. Capcom was basically thumbing its nose at the current generation of graphics whores and saying, "See, this is what games used to be like! They were blocky and tough as nails! And we liked it that way!"

Funny that passed over your head, since that seems to be your MO, for the most part.

And anyone who prefers MMWW over the originals is a complete graphics whore, since that's the only thing it has over the NES versions.

You wish. Capcom was appealing to NES Mega Man fanboys/elitests. They could've made the same exact game with better graphics. Why do you think people get so excited about HD remixes of games? Better graphics can always improve the experience. Take any good PS1 game and I bet you it would be more enjoyable with PS3 quality graphics and everything else the same. The problem with modern games is that they only worry about graphics and skimp on the gameplay, good graphics+good gameplay=video game gold.

Again, the biggest point here is that they skimped on half of what makes retro games special: it's not just that they had to be about gameplay to be special, they also represented overcoming hardware limitations. Again, MM9 is like a normal person winning the Special Olympics, except it didn't because it wasn't even as good as previous games. Many people pointed out its key flaw of causing lots of cheap deaths when compared to the real NES Mega Mans. MMWW at least incorporates game saves and some gameplay is slightly rebalanced/different. No matter what, I just can't give MM9 the respect I would if it was a true NES game. I'm sure most programmers would agree with that perspective.
10-23-2009, 01:33 AM
MrMatthews

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

You wish. Capcom was appealing to NES Mega Man fanboys/elitests.

LOL . . . then what the hell did I say? You can read, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMatthews

Capcom was basically thumbing its nose at the current generation of graphics whores and saying, "See, this is what games used to be like! They were blocky and tough as nails! And we liked it that way!"

Personally, I would have liked them to branch out with the visuals, a little bit. A "cut-out" 8-bit Mega Man sprite ala Paper Mario against more contemporary background graphics would have been pretty cool.

I'm just grateful they didn't make it in the style of Mega Man 7 or 8.

But going back to the NES style was a deliberate design choice and I respect them for it, regardless of how "accurately" the game was programmed (that's still the most shallow and inane thing to hold against a game I've ever heard).

Besides, Capcom had already made the game you were describing, and they named it Mega Man Powered Up
http://ps2media.gamespy.com/ps2/imag...3011750895.jpg
10-23-2009, 01:39 AM
Knuckle Duster

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

You wish. Capcom was appealing to NES Mega Man fanboys/elitests. They could've made the same exact game with better graphics. Why do you think people get so excited about HD remixes of games? Better graphics can always improve the experience. Take any good PS1 game and I bet you it would be more enjoyable with PS3 quality graphics and everything else the same. The problem with modern games is that they only worry about graphics and skimp on the gameplay, good graphics+good gameplay=video game gold.

Again, the biggest point here is that they skimped on half of what makes retro games special: it's not just that they had to be about gameplay to be special, they also represented overcoming hardware limitations. Again, MM9 is like a normal person winning the Special Olympics, except it didn't because it wasn't even as good as previous games. Many people pointed out its key flaw of causing lots of cheap deaths when compared to the real NES Mega Mans. MMWW at least incorporates game saves and some gameplay is slightly rebalanced/different. No matter what, I just can't give MM9 the respect I would if it was a true NES game. I'm sure most programmers would agree with that perspective.

You're missing the point again. They intentionally abandoned modern graphics for 8 bit sprites to prove that 'you don't need graphics' for a good game.

What exactly, outside of game play, serves to overcome 'hardware limitations' when you take the 'Graphics whore' part of it out of the equation?

It's not a Retro game in your eyes, and thus, "It sucks because it has 8 bit graphics on a platform capable of much more?" :huh:
10-23-2009, 02:09 AM
Melf

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

You're a fucking douche, you're worse than Metal Sonic and Knuckle Duster. If I was anti-ROM, you would be telling me how stupid I was for not emulating. DIAF.

There's no need for personal attacks. I know you can have this discussion without them.

That goes for everyone else too.

Quote:

I never said Nintendo owes it to me to sell these games a certain price, only voicing my personal stance that they are charging more than I'm willing to pay for a volatile download with hazy future preservation potential.

And that's all well and good. Vote with your wallet and don't support the VC. That doesn't mean that it isn't a viable business platform, and it doesn't mean that Nintendo can't charge what it wants for its own properties. Just like you feel you can do what you want with the games you buy, publishers can do what they want with the properties they release.

Quote:

Why won't you be able to play your $60 PS3 game 10 years from now? If you take care of your shit, you'll be able to play it for years on the real hardware and then later on a computer via an emulator with the game disc. Even if your game disc stops working, you still have an undeniable proof of purchase. Wii VC won't even give you an ownership card.

Using your own logic, if I take care of my Wii, why won't I be able to play the VC games I downloaded to it 10 years from now?

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It's not so much the price I object to as the lack of sufficient proof of future ownership. FORCING someone to buy the same thing over and over again is complete and total bullshit and I will NEVER support that. At least when you re-buy a Blu Ray movie you get additional features and improved quality, exactly what is improved about Super Mario 3 on Wii VC? They don't even have online 2 player, a feature that would make me pile VC games onto my Wii, so what's the point of buying something that costs more than a cartridge and may not entitle you to the game indefinitely?

For the same reason people buy compilations. Not everyone has a dozen consoles connected to their TVs, and it's much easier and convenient for them to just click on an icon and download a game to their Wiis. It's not that hard to understand. The Wii's target audience doesn't have a Genesis, Neo Geo, TG-16, and others, and this is the easiest way to get those games. Nintendo is making lots of money with it, so people obviously think it's a good idea. Yes, it's unfortunate that people are willing to pay so much for stock ROMs with no added features, but that's the nature of the market. The best product doesn't always win.

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If buying a Wii VC game meant they would send me a credit card-like ownership card saying "u OWn DiZ GAumE FurEvAR!" I would be OK spending $5 a pop because I knew I would always be able to download it onto future systems or transfer it. But it doesn't work that way, it's a huge step back and everyone that supports it is just letting the intellectual property bullies shove their dicks up our asses another inch. If this shit keeps happening at this rate, before you know it we won't be able to show clips of a movie in reviews or mimic copyrighted material for parody. There is a much bigger implication than just some convenient ROMs for the masses, you're openly accepting that you're paying money and literally getting an imaginary product with no proof you ever paid for it. Just genius.

Oh please. You're honestly saying that a company defending its product is akin to censorship? Not being able to get Nintendo ROMs for free from the company or with all the features you want is a violation of your rights? The games you download are no more "imaginary" than any computer product you've ever bought and downloaded. Games from Steam, those wonderful iPhone games you're constantly mentioning - none of those included a disc or cartridge. Are they imaginary? No more imaginary than Mickey Mouse or Bugs Bunny, and those two characters have been copyrighted for decades. Just because something isn't physically tangible doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And I guess you'll never buy anything from the Xbox Marketplace or the Playstation Store either, since neither one gives you a guarantee that you can use those items in the future. Hell, what if Apple discontinues the iPhone or it's next revision isn't backwards compatible or something? Did any of the iPhone games you bought bring a guarantee of future compatibility and use?

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Oh, and that Bush analogy proves you are a fairly terrible and selfish human being. Just because you can exploit people for more money doesn't mean you should.

I KNOW you're not this ignorant. A company defending its product is not "exploiting people." No one is forcing you to buy a Wii or download anything from the VC. There's complete freedom in that. That Nintendo doesn't release its entire back catalog to you for free or for peanuts doesn't mean they're exploiting you. It means the company is run by people out to make it money and keep it profitable. You know, like every other business on the planet?

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I do stuff for free for people all the time. I have made dozens of youtube videos and I have never tried to make a single cent off of them. If I ever did try to pursue some intellectual property entertainment career, I would work on the Adam Carolla Podcast model and just incorporate an advertisement for a PHYSICAL product into the program to cover the cost of production/my salary. I would supplement that income with live performances (if applicable) and selling physical related merchandise for people that wanted them.

And this wonderful anecdotal evidence will earn you many brownie points to get into heaven, but it's irrelevant to this discussion. Nintendo isn't a charity. IT'S A BUSINESS. Businesses want to make money.

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I know why you're so opposed to what I'm saying, it's because you are trying to have some sort of intellectual property based career and you want to bully your way into a paycheck. Get a real job. I design engineering equipment that gets manifested into a PHYSICAL product, if a university wanted to use one of my designs for a non-profit project, I wouldn't hesitate to let them use it. If money is changing hands, the intellectual property owners should be paid, if no money is involved, you shouldn't have a problem with it. You know why? I'm not a money grubbing sleezy douche.

Ok, maybe you are that ignorant. I've been a university professor for over a decade and am currently a doctoral candidate. I think I have a "real job," so stop waving your cock around. You're wildly throwing around stupid generalizations without any basis. I'm sure universities would love to use your great product for non-profit stuff, but it still isn't relevant to this discussion. Nintendo is a business, not a person with a big heart, nor is it a center of higher education. It's out to make money, that's it. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the entire capital system. Just don't sit there and whine about Nintendo keeping the common man down because it overcharges for ROMs. Supply and demand is why they charge what they do, and it's working quite well for them and other publishers. That's capitalism. Live with it.
10-23-2009, 02:48 AM
kool kitty89

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

But A) that was a nod to Super NES fans B) they sped it up to 60 FPS and was actually completely re-made

If they released Star Fox and made the framerate true to the original version, it would not appeal to many (most?) people. On the other hand, even I might shell out if they made a 60 FPS version, that would be AWESOME.

Well, i wouldn't mid it being spruced up a bit as long as they kept it reasonably authentic, and if framerate was increased (which I hardly notice on a real SNES anyway, moreso on emu), they had better not just speed it up like oler/less accurate emulators do (like SNES 9x v1.41, which plays it so fast that it's unenjoyable and actually runs through the level 1 intro cutscene so fast that 1/2 the audio clip gets cut off)

I would not want it to have textures for sure though, if they did a "HD" remake, it could be 60 fps (at proper speed), higher color (no dithering), higher res (given), maybe add gouraud shading, maybe even increase the poly count a tad on some models, but no added textures (you could use higher res textures for what is alreay used of course), but adding texture mapped models would ruin the feel of th egame IMO, the shaded look is part of its charm. (just like X-Wing on PC)

Oh, and DEFINITELY, NO VOICE ACTORS!!! That would be the number one way to ruin the game with a single change... The giberish voices are classic, the DS game almost went back to it, but shifted them annoying animal crossing style voices... (that, of course being forgivable, the 99% touchscreen controls not though)

I though it was a shame they never came out with a GBA Star Fox port, plenty of other SNES ports there, but the closest thing there was "Star X," then again, it may not have played right with only without x+y, it would have still been cool to see a DS port though, or even better, a double feature DS game featuring SF plus SF2, and add multiplayer. (which was a planned feature for SF2 dropped in early semi-playable prototypes, but should have been fairly easy to add and an asset for the DS's wifi gameplay -it would have been in Command had the controls not sucked)
10-23-2009, 03:03 AM
17daysolderthannes

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMatthews

Besides, Capcom had already made the game you were describing, and they named it Mega Man Powered Up
http://ps2media.gamespy.com/ps2/imag...3011750895.jpg

You're right, they did, and I like that style of thinking alot more (though I could've done without the Chibi style). Mega Man Maverick Hunter X is another example, minus the chibi FTW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster

It's not a Retro game in your eyes, and thus, "It sucks because it has 8 bit graphics on a platform capable of much more?" :huh:

Yeah, sort of. By that logic, lets just throw all modern systems out of the window and only develop for the Atari 2600. Nostalgia and appreciation for the past is one thing, but cheaping out on graphics for a pretentious "motif" is lame. There are tons of iPhone games with classic gameplay and design characteristics, they still use the maximum display resolution the platform is capable of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

There's no need for personal attacks. I know you can have this discussion without them.

That goes for everyone else too.

Why weren't you highlighting Havok666's comment and blasting him? He's the one that felt the need to pop in a thread and directly insult me, why am I the antagonized person here? Also, his statement clearly contradicts the interests of the forum anyway, we may be collectors, but I would say most members have an interest in emulation in some form as well (official or homebrew).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

And that's all well and good. Vote with your wallet and don't support the VC.

That's what I'm doing, but I also want to encourage others to do the same because one voice isn't enough. I want others to see that they are paying a premium price for a very lame and half-assed service. At least XBOX Live and PSN downloads (some anyway) offer online multiplayer, graphics filters, and other features not found in the original games. I may not love the fact that it's download only, but at least SF II HD Remix offers a solid online play system and fully redrawn graphics. Since, unlike the VC, that game isn't available in any other form, you have to decide if $10 is worth it to play SF II online for a couple years. For most people, it was. If a game is off the wall great and not available in any other form, sometimes it is worth chancing losing it later on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

Using your own logic, if I take care of my Wii, why won't I be able to play the VC games I downloaded to it 10 years from now?

Hopefully. If your SD cards become corrupted (as volatile memory sometimes does) and the Wii servers are down, then no. Unlike the Wii, if a PS3 breaks 10 years from now, you can buy another one on the used market, if your Wii breaks 10 years from now, goodbye all of those wonderful VC games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

Nintendo is making lots of money with it, so people obviously think it's a good idea. Yes, it's unfortunate that people are willing to pay so much for stock ROMs with no added features, but that's the nature of the market. The best product doesn't always win.

Who says they are making lots of money? who says they couldn't make more with lower prices? Like I said, most Wii owners I've talked to feel the VC is a ripoff and would buy more games if it was cheaper. Again, I'm encouraging others to boycott the VC until they either offer new features or lower prices, if we keep accepting it, it won't change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

Oh please. You're honestly saying that a company defending its product is akin to censorship? Not being able to get Nintendo ROMs for free from the company or with all the features you want is a violation of your rights? The games you download are no more "imaginary" than any computer product you've ever bought and downloaded. Games from Steam, those wonderful iPhone games you're constantly mentioning - none of those included a disc or cartridge. Are they imaginary? No more imaginary than Mickey Mouse or Bugs Bunny, and those two characters have been copyrighted for decades. Just because something isn't physically tangible doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

No, not censorship. Where did you get that idea? Censorship is saying you can't speak your mind. Since when is copyright infringement censorship? I'm saying copyright holders are getting so much power lately that they may well be able to take away the rights we still do have and take for granted. I also refuse to buy most computer software in pure digital form unless I know the company is trustworthy and will allow me to re-download it infinitely should my computer need to be wiped and started fresh or if it should accidentally get deleted, etc. I've already explained that the reason I am OK with the iPhone is because most of my games were either free or 99 cents, a negligible cost IMO. Also, I know the developers of iPhone games are mostly indie developers that really care about the products they make, and I want to support that. Who do you think you're really helping by buying a VC game? Some douchebag in a suit at Nintendo's corporate office. At least if I support an iPhone game it could mean a sequel or a release on a more established home console, buying a Wii VC game is just giving money to someone that doesn't deserve it and nothing else. Again, the low price and the nature of the service are the only reason I make an exception for the iPhone (also because I am out and about alot and it's always with me, so I might as well have some games on it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

And I guess you'll never buy anything from the Xbox Marketplace or the Playstation Store either, since neither one gives you a guarantee that you can use those items in the future. Hell, what if Apple discontinues the iPhone or it's next revision isn't backwards compatible or something? Did any of the iPhone games you bought bring a guarantee of future compatibility and use?

Thus far, every iPhone game has been compatible with newer versions. I can re-download any iPhone game from the iTunes server as much as I want and can store it anywhere I feel like. Can you copy the contents of a Wii VC SD card and store it on the computer and have it still work when you put it back on? Again, I can break my iPhone and transfer it all as long as the iPhone OS doesn't change significantly, on the other hand, you can almost bet the new Nintendo system won't work with squat from the Wii. If that changes and Nintendo appears to adopt an "infinite entitlement" policy, I may change my opinion of it. Since they haven't said anything about that, I have to assume the worst. And once again: price price price price price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

And this wonderful anecdotal evidence will earn you many brownie points to get into heaven, but it's irrelevant to this discussion. Nintendo isn't a charity. IT'S A BUSINESS. Businesses want to make money.

Right, and I'm saying they would make more by charging less money. There is definitely a price point where people would say "fuck it, lets just buy it," and all games thus far are well over that price. Again, I have 3 VC games, I have dozens of iPhone games. I have spent more on my iPhone because the value is there and I feel I'm getting my moneys worth out of a 99 cent game. On the other hand, if I shell out $8 on a Genesis game and decide I hate it, that's a hit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

Ok, maybe you are that ignorant. I've been a university professor for over a decade and am currently a doctoral candidate. I think I have a "real job," so stop waving your cock around. You're wildly throwing around stupid generalizations without any basis. I'm sure universities would love to use your great product for non-profit stuff, but it still isn't relevant to this discussion. Nintendo is a business, not a person with a big heart, nor is it a center of higher education. It's out to make money, that's it. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the entire capital system. Just don't sit there and whine about Nintendo keeping the common man down because it overcharges for ROMs. Supply and demand is why they charge what they do, and it's working quite well for them and other publishers. That's capitalism. Live with it.

I know WHY they do it, I'm saying I personally don't like it and I hope others see it as the ripoff that it is and choose not to support it. I would think of all people a college professor would support open minded thinking that doesn't just bend over and take whatever a company does. I'm not asking for a handout, I'm just asking others to join my wallet and speak as a group.
10-23-2009, 11:04 AM
Melf

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

Why weren't you highlighting Havok666's comment and blasting him? He's the one that felt the need to pop in a thread and directly insult me, why am I the antagonized person here? Also, his statement clearly contradicts the interests of the forum anyway, we may be collectors, but I would say most members have an interest in emulation in some form as well (official or homebrew).

I didn't see his comment, but if he insulted you first, then consider the warning his.

Quote:

Hopefully. If your SD cards become corrupted (as volatile memory sometimes does) and the Wii servers are down, then no. Unlike the Wii, if a PS3 breaks 10 years from now, you can buy another one on the used market, if your Wii breaks 10 years from now, goodbye all of those wonderful VC games.

You can say the same thing for your Xbox 360, PS3 and PC hard drives. Hopefully they won't be corrupted or infected and force you to reformat and lose everything. The VC games you download and store on your SD card work fine when the console isn't online, so the servers being down aren't a factor so long as your data isn't corrupted, just like every other machine that sells games for download.

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Who says they are making lots of money? who says they couldn't make more with lower prices? Like I said, most Wii owners I've talked to feel the VC is a ripoff and would buy more games if it was cheaper. Again, I'm encouraging others to boycott the VC until they either offer new features or lower prices, if we keep accepting it, it won't change.

I haven't seen any information from this year, but Nintendo sold a million and a half games in the first two months, and then 1.3 million the year after. Things cooled off a bit as the novelty wore off, but considering that almost nothing went into the cost of putting them up for sale, even slow sales is free money for Nintendo.

I'm not arguing that the prices aren't too high or that sales would be even better if they were lowered. I'm just saying that Nintendo seems to be content with sales as they are, so they're not inclined to lower prices.

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No, not censorship. Where did you get that idea? Censorship is saying you can't speak your mind. Since when is copyright infringement censorship?

From your comment of not being able to mimic copyrighted material for parody, something the Supreme Court already upheld (along with the right to parody). Your rights are in no danger from the Virtual Console.

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I'm saying copyright holders are getting so much power lately that they may well be able to take away the rights we still do have and take for granted.

Considering how easy it is to pirate digital material, shouldn't copyright holders take stronger action to protect their products? If I own a store that's been broken into by some kids, I upgrade the locks. If later it's broken into by professional robbers, wouldn't you think I'd upgrade my security to compensate for the more sophisticated break ins? You can't combat theft on the Internet the way you combat theft of a physical product, so of course copyright law has to be modified and strengthened to reflect the new dangers copyright holders face.

In the '80s and early '90s, software piracy was combated with tactics like the "don't copy that floppy!" campaign. People can now download programs worth hundreds or thousands of dollars - as well as thousands of ROMs - by themselves in the privacy of their own homes thanks to the Internet. I'd think the law would have to change to combat that.

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I also refuse to buy most computer software in pure digital form unless I know the company is trustworthy and will allow me to re-download it infinitely should my computer need to be wiped and started fresh or if it should accidentally get deleted, etc.

How can you be sure that games you buy off something like Steam will still be available to you 10 years from now? Who gave you that guarantee?

Quote:

I've already explained that the reason I am OK with the iPhone is because most of my games were either free or 99 cents, a negligible cost IMO. Also, I know the developers of iPhone games are mostly indie developers that really care about the products they make, and I want to support that. Who do you think you're really helping by buying a VC game? Some douchebag in a suit at Nintendo's corporate office. At least if I support an iPhone game it could mean a sequel or a release on a more established home console, buying a Wii VC game is just giving money to someone that doesn't deserve it and nothing else. Again, the low price and the nature of the service are the only reason I make an exception for the iPhone (also because I am out and about alot and it's always with me, so I might as well have some games on it).

And you have every right to feel that way. Not everyone does, and many people just want to enjoy good games, which means they have no trouble paying for a VC title. I'm also pretty sure the reason we get new games in popular series is because they sell well, so that doesn't just apply to indie developers.

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Thus far, every iPhone game has been compatible with newer versions. I can re-download any iPhone game from the iTunes server as much as I want and can store it anywhere I feel like. Can you copy the contents of a Wii VC SD card and store it on the computer and have it still work when you put it back on? Again, I can break my iPhone and transfer it all as long as the iPhone OS doesn'.t change significantly, on the other hand, you can almost bet the new Nintendo system won't work with squat from the Wii. If that changes and Nintendo appears to adopt an "infinite entitlement" policy, I may change my opinion of it. Since they haven't said anything about that, I have to assume the worst. And once again: price price price price price.

The way you begin this paragraph shows that you have been given no guarantee by Apple. THUS FAR = "past experience does not guarantee future results." And you mention having to circumvent Apple security and protocols to be able to transfer data. I'm sure Apple doesn't encourage jailbreaking the iPhone.

I can use your same crystal ball comparison and say that since the Wii is backward compatible with the Game Cube, it stands to reason that the next Nintendo console will be compatible with the Wii. Of course, I have no idea if that's true, and no one has guaranteed me that my Wii games will work with furture hardware, just like Apple and the iPhone.

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Right, and I'm saying they would make more by charging less money. There is definitely a price point where people would say "fuck it, lets just buy it," and all games thus far are well over that price. Again, I have 3 VC games, I have dozens of iPhone games. I have spent more on my iPhone because the value is there and I feel I'm getting my moneys worth out of a 99 cent game. On the other hand, if I shell out $8 on a Genesis game and decide I hate it, that's a hit.

You're cherry picking facts to suit your argument here. If I download a $1 iPhone game and it sucks, I'm only out a dollar. However, the developer just made money off me for a shitty game. How many people downloaded that same game? How much money did the developer make for a crap title? Just look at the Wii library, which proves that people will pay for shit. The amount of shovelware and crap software on the console is staggering, and it's because developers get lazy when people are willing to pay money for low quality. You think this won't affect the iPhone as well, as developers begin to see sales pick up? You're only out $1 if you buy a shitty iPhone game, but if a million people do it...

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I know WHY they do it, I'm saying I personally don't like it and I hope others see it as the ripoff that it is and choose not to support it. I would think of all people a college professor would support open minded thinking that doesn't just bend over and take whatever a company does. I'm not asking for a handout, I'm just asking others to join my wallet and speak as a group.

You're accusing me of being closed minded when you refuse to accept a business's right to profit from its products and the public's right to decide they're willing to pay a particular price for games? The same way you have a right to boycott, others have a right to embrace. Being closed minded = not seeing the other side of the argument and thinking you're the only one who sees the light. You don't agree with people bending over and taking what companies offer? Great. Not everyone sees it the way you do.
10-23-2009, 11:52 AM
TheEdge

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

Why do you think people get so excited about HD remixes of games? Better graphics can always improve the experience. Take any good PS1 game and I bet you it would be more enjoyable with PS3 quality graphics

A good example of this is when Soul Reaver, Hydro Thunder, and Vigilante 8 were ported to the Dreamcast. All of them had upgraded graphics and gameplay. After that no one even bothered with the PS1 versions.

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MM9.

I thought you were talking about might and magic 9 for a second. :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

You're a fucking douche, you're worse than Metal Sonic and Knuckle Duster. If I was anti-ROM, you would be telling me how stupid I was for not emulating. DIAF.

I gotta disagree with this one. No one is worse than Metal Sonic and Knuddle Custer. That's physically impossible. They are the kings of derailing, off topic remarks, and petty insults, :nod:
10-23-2009, 12:10 PM
Baloo

What the fuck is this thread? It's the biggest flame war of ignorance I've ever seen.

Do you fuckers really think that companies are in it to please the loyal customer? FUCK NO. The main thing is to get more customers with different things, and on top of it all MAKE MONEY. Not give out freebies to keep their regular customers (God knows how much they really buy), not to give away free old games, and certainly not to LOSE MONEY.

So 17days, SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY ABOUT THE FUCKING WII VIRTUAL CONSOLE PRICES. YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THEM, TAKE IT UP WITH NINTENDO. BUT JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU CAN EMULATE THEM FOR FREE DOESNT MEAN THEY SHOULD BE RELEASED FOR DIRT CHEAP ON FUCKING VIRTUAL CONSOLE.
10-23-2009, 12:14 PM
TheEdge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baloo

The main thing is to get more customers with different things, and on top of it all MAKE MONEY

Ya, it's a rip off.........

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baloo

So 17days, SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY ABOUT THE FUCKING WII VIRTUAL CONSOLE PRICES. YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THEM, TAKE IT UP WITH NINTENDO. BUT JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU CAN EMULATE THEM FOR FREE DOESNT MEAN THEY SHOULD BE RELEASED FOR DIRT CHEAP ON FUCKING VIRTUAL CONSOLE.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

K-K-K-KOMBO BREAKER

ULTIMATE PPPPPPWWWWNNNNNAAGGGGEEE!!!!
10-23-2009, 12:36 PM
Baloo

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheEdge

Ya, it's a rip off.........

No, not really. The general populous doesn't have access to emulators or know that they even exist, don't you realize that? And buying all these old games they played as a kid to show their kids is wonderful for them.

And all that OHHHHHHHH stuff was pretty childish...
10-23-2009, 01:27 PM
Da_Shocker

Baloo if you have access to a decent computer and if you read videogame magazines then you know emulators exist. And I do have to say i'm with 17days on MM9. I mean me personally I don't wanna move backwards like that again.
10-23-2009, 01:36 PM
InternalPrimate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

Baloo if you have access to a decent computer and if you read videogame magazines then you know emulators exist. And I do have to say i'm with 17days on MM9. I mean me personally I don't wanna move backwards like that again.

Wow. That's missing the point twice.
10-23-2009, 01:59 PM
17daysolderthannes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

You can say the same thing for your Xbox 360, PS3 and PC hard drives. Hopefully they won't be corrupted or infected and force you to reformat and lose everything. The VC games you download and store on your SD card work fine when the console isn't online, so the servers being down aren't a factor so long as your data isn't corrupted, just like every other machine that sells games for download.

yeah, but if you corrupt the SD cards AFTER the servers are down, there is no way to get them back. They're gone, kaput, dead. If your Wii breaks during that period, there is no way to transfer them either as they are coded to your Wii. At least I can put an NES cartridge in any NES. Likewise, I can put iPhone games on up to ?5? compatible devices at once and will likely be able to transfer them as long as they are relevant and compatible (if Apple's past has taught me anything).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

I haven't seen any information from this year, but Nintendo sold a million and a half games in the first two months, and then 1.3 million the year after. Things cooled off a bit as the novelty wore off, but considering that almost nothing went into the cost of putting them up for sale, even slow sales is free money for Nintendo.

I'm not arguing that the prices aren't too high or that sales would be even better if they were lowered. I'm just saying that Nintendo seems to be content with sales as they are, so they're not inclined to lower prices.

Your arguement is that they're a business out to make money, wouldn't that business want to maximize profits if lowering prices would accomplish that? Do you understand economics at all? How many people do you think would buy a Civic if it cost more than a Lexus? To maximize profits, you maximize profit per unit combined with maximum potential sales. If prices were cheap enough that people were buying the whole VC, they would make more money. Nintendo is passing on an opportunity to please customers AND make more money, just another reason I think they're stupid and why I don't like them and why I continually express dislike for the Wii.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

From your comment of not being able to mimic copyrighted material for parody, something the Supreme Court already upheld (along with the right to parody). Your rights are in no danger from the Virtual Console.

Considering how easy it is to pirate digital material, shouldn't copyright holders take stronger action to protect their products? If I own a store that's been broken into by some kids, I upgrade the locks. If later it's broken into by professional robbers, wouldn't you think I'd upgrade my security to compensate for the more sophisticated break ins? You can't combat theft on the Internet the way you combat theft of a physical product, so of course copyright law has to be modified and strengthened to reflect the new dangers copyright holders face.

In the '80s and early '90s, software piracy was combated with tactics like the "don't copy that floppy!" campaign. People can now download programs worth hundreds or thousands of dollars - as well as thousands of ROMs - by themselves in the privacy of their own homes thanks to the Internet. I'd think the law would have to change to combat that.

You used to be able to make a mix tape recorded from the radio and give it to everyone and that was fully protected by law. Now companies are trying to rid us of Tivo and even trying to make it illegal to rip MP3s from our own CDs because "it circumvents copy protection." You may not see your civil rights disappearing before your eyes, but I do. Again, WILLINGLY paying twice for identical intellectual property is the most retarded thing ever. I'm not convinced non-profit intellectual property sharing should even be prohibited, but now it seems we are being bullied into re-buying the same shit over and over again for no good reason. Why should someone pay $500 to dick around in Photoshop for fun when he's not going to profit from it and it isn't costing Adobe anything out of pocket? At least we have the noble people at Gimp to somewhat alleviate that problem. Patents get 20 years, copyrighted works should be the same. Trying to say they're different is retarded. The one exception may be fundamental trademarks like the McDonald's arches.

Again, like I keep saying, physical product advertisements in the IP product would eliminate all of this bullshit. It's working great for the Adam Carolla podcast and Community on NBC.com (Pledge commercials throughout, lol) as well as Hulu.com. These dinosaur douchebags need to get on the bandwagon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

How can you be sure that games you buy off something like Steam will still be available to you 10 years from now? Who gave you that guarantee?

Who said anything about Steam? I don't even know WTF that is!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

And you have every right to feel that way. Not everyone does, and many people just want to enjoy good games, which means they have no trouble paying for a VC title. I'm also pretty sure the reason we get new games in popular series is because they sell well, so that doesn't just apply to indie developers.

More often than not they are lazy cash in titles. You can look at the sales of Super Mario World in 1992 and know a new Mario game will sell. You don't need a ripoff emulation service for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

The way you begin this paragraph shows that you have been given no guarantee by Apple. THUS FAR = "past experience does not guarantee future results." And you mention having to circumvent Apple security and protocols to be able to transfer data. I'm sure Apple doesn't encourage jailbreaking the iPhone.

I have Apple's track record and the current guarantee of unlimited downloads for the time being. 2+2=4.

I said nothing about jailbreaking, I said BREAK my phone, as in drop it from a 10 story building and smash it into a million pieces. If that happens, Apple lets me transfer everything in a matter of minutes, I may not even need to make a phone call (from a landline, lol). I could probably handle it all via iTunes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

I can use your same crystal ball comparison and say that since the Wii is backward compatible with the Game Cube, it stands to reason that the next Nintendo console will be compatible with the Wii. Of course, I have no idea if that's true, and no one has guaranteed me that my Wii games will work with furture hardware, just like Apple and the iPhone.

doubt it. Unless they support the Wii controller, I don't see how that's possible. The Wii is practically a Gamecube to begin with, the next system won't be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

You're cherry picking facts to suit your argument here. If I download a $1 iPhone game and it sucks, I'm only out a dollar. However, the developer just made money off me for a shitty game. How many people downloaded that same game? How much money did the developer make for a crap title? Just look at the Wii library, which proves that people will pay for shit. The amount of shovelware and crap software on the console is staggering, and it's because developers get lazy when people are willing to pay money for low quality. You think this won't affect the iPhone as well, as developers begin to see sales pick up? You're only out $1 if you buy a shitty iPhone game, but if a million people do it...

These games are old. Whether or not they are supported is of negligible importance to the future. I'd rather lose $1 than $8 to a douchebag, it's called "damage control." Also, most iPhone games have demos...VC games barely have a gameplay video.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

You're accusing me of being closed minded when you refuse to accept a business's right to profit from its products and the public's right to decide they're willing to pay a particular price for games? The same way you have a right to boycott, others have a right to embrace. Being closed minded = not seeing the other side of the argument and thinking you're the only one who sees the light. You don't agree with people bending over and taking what companies offer? Great. Not everyone sees it the way you do.

I accept their right to profit, I don't accept their means to do so. I can't choose what I buy as a consumer? Other companies manage to turn a profit selling these games for pennies a piece, Nintendo can't? I already said I understand the convenience of it for the masses that can't handle hardware restoration, but the rest of us need to hold out for a better offer. You don't go pay MSRP for a car when you know they are padding the shit out of the price do you? Same for a house. You haggle until you know the price is what it should be. That's what I'm doing by boycotting VC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baloo

So 17days, SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY ABOUT THE FUCKING WII VIRTUAL CONSOLE PRICES. YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THEM, TAKE IT UP WITH NINTENDO. BUT JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU CAN EMULATE THEM FOR FREE DOESNT MEAN THEY SHOULD BE RELEASED FOR DIRT CHEAP ON FUCKING VIRTUAL CONSOLE.

People keep going "wHy DuNT U LyKE Da Wii!?" VC and it's prices are one reason. If Taito can plop down 45 arcade games on a PHYSICAL disc for $20, Nintendo has no fucking excuse. Most compilation discs charge $1 a game AT THE MOST and deliver a physical product that costs tons to distribute. I'm not trying to stop Bob from downloading Mario Kart to show his son, I'm just saying that bigger fans should know better and wait until they price things more appropriately compared to other retro game services. Free emulation has nothing to do with this, I wouldn't give a shit fuck if I had no intention of buying them. Again, I prefer to buy the real games if I'm going to pay for them, but just voicing another reason I don't like the Wii since everyone always posts a big "WHY!!?!?!" when I say that. Why people keep saying "VC is AWESOME!" when they charge what they do is unbelievable to me. All I'm saying is that if these games were priced the same as they are on most compilations, I would gladly buy and support them. IT'S AN OPINION ASSHOLE.
10-23-2009, 03:06 PM
Baloo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

Baloo if you have access to a decent computer and if you read videogame magazines then you know emulators exist. And I do have to say i'm with 17days on MM9. I mean me personally I don't wanna move backwards like that again.

Out of the millions of people that buy Virtual Console games, how many of them do you think read video game magazines?

The parents buying games for their kids don't read video game magazines.

The 30-something year old buying Nintendo games to relive his childhood doesn't read video game magazines

The grandmother playing Wii Sports doesn't read video game magazines.

So that maybe leaves you with the kids, and they wouldn't be able to understand what an emulator is, or how to work it. So there goes that idea.

You need to get out of that hardcore gamer mindset. Not everyone who plays video games subscribes to Nintendo Power and IGN Magazine and keeps track of all the new video game releases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

People keep going "wHy DuNT U LyKE Da Wii!?" VC and it's prices are one reason. If Taito can plop down 45 arcade games on a PHYSICAL disc for $20, Nintendo has no fucking excuse. Most compilation discs charge $1 a game AT THE MOST and deliver a physical product that costs tons to distribute. I'm not trying to stop Bob from downloading Mario Kart to show his son, I'm just saying that bigger fans should know better and wait until they price things more appropriately compared to other retro game services. Free emulation has nothing to do with this, I wouldn't give a shit fuck if I had no intention of buying them. Again, I prefer to buy the real games if I'm going to pay for them, but just voicing another reason I don't like the Wii since everyone always posts a big "WHY!!?!?!" when I say that. Why people keep saying "VC is AWESOME!" when they charge what they do is unbelievable to me. All I'm saying is that if these games were priced the same as they are on most compilations, I would gladly buy and support them. IT'S AN OPINION ASSHOLE.

Your logic is flawed, as you try to compare wholesale buying to singular consumer buying. That's like saying to a store owner:

"I don't want to buy this bag of potato chips for 50 cents because you buy 20 bags of chips wholesale for 20 cents apiece."

Now does that make any sense at all? It works the same way for those compilations. It can't work that way for a consumer.
10-23-2009, 03:12 PM
FoxHound

Why does Nintendo, MS, or Sony future systems need to be Backward Compatible? There is no standard that they need to be. A Dreamcast was definatly not backward compatible with Saturn. or SNES with NES..Okay..So new systems are now offering way to play the old games on current systems..fine I will pay 4.00 dollars to play MK2 on my PS3...because there is not way to stick my SNES cart in the PS3. Sweet I own on the game on my SNES and Genesis and Saturn and PS2 from a compilation disc. Its nice and convienent to play on the PS3 for a quick fight.

2 years later in the Future I am a owner of the Playstation 4 or whatever the hell it will be called. Oh to join the PSN network I need to upgrade my ID to the PSN2 ID format....Oh it says that previous purchases from my old PSN account WONT transfer over. Oh they have MK2 for DL its only 2.00 People will still buy it or maybe it will be MKVSDC for DL at 10.00 dollars. I never owned it before and its super collectable now cause its on ebay for 100.00 BIN okay 10.00 Vs 100.00 and I need to play on my old PS3...better buy get the DL version /just my .02

in regards to VC my Downloads are few and far in between. but I will never purchase any N64 game from VC. There a limit where I can justify that I am pleased with the price I pay.. as for 17days .99 its okay with him but not 8.00. But for others they could be satisfied to pay 8.00 and not 15.00 for a wiiware game or whatever.

I am really not a huge fan of the whole Xbox360 games complete that are available for DL on XBL such as Bioshock for 29.99 F-that I would rather buy it used for 20.00 than pay that price..
10-23-2009, 03:26 PM
InternalPrimate

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

yeah, but if you corrupt the SD cards AFTER the servers are down, there is no way to get them back. They're gone, kaput, dead. If your Wii breaks during that period, there is no way to transfer them either as they are coded to your Wii. At least I can put an NES cartridge in any NES. Likewise, I can put iPhone games on up to ?5? compatible devices at once and will likely be able to transfer them as long as they are relevant and compatible (if Apple's past has taught me anything).

Your assuming a lot of things. From the very beginning of this "to emulate or not to emulate" argument, you've stated that you're screwed if your Wii breaks down. That's total bullshit, and it's been proven to be bullshit in another thread. I think the point that Melf was trying to make was that you have no guarantee at all as to what will or will not work in the future. Have you even once considered tv connections? What if tvs in the future only support HDMI? What will happen to your retro systems?

Quote:

Your arguement is that they're a business out to make money, wouldn't that business want to maximize profits if lowering prices would accomplish that? Do you understand economics at all? How many people do you think would buy a Civic if it cost more than a Lexus? To maximize profits, you maximize profit per unit combined with maximum potential sales. If prices were cheap enough that people were buying the whole VC, they would make more money. Nintendo is passing on an opportunity to please customers AND make more money, just another reason I think they're stupid and why I don't like them and why I continually express dislike for the Wii.

Are you suggesting you know more about economics? If so, that's laughable. The market dictates the price! If SNES VC games are $8, that's because that's the price people are willing to pay for them. When you lower price, you have to take into account the necessary increase in units sold to break even. My guess is that because Nintendo hasn't lowered their prices, there's no reason to.

Quote:

You used to be able to make a mix tape recorded from the radio and give it to everyone and that was fully protected by law. Now companies are trying to rid us of Tivo and even trying to make it illegal to rip MP3s from our own CDs because "it circumvents copy protection." You may not see your civil rights disappearing before your eyes, but I do. Again, WILLINGLY paying twice for identical intellectual property is the most retarded thing ever. I'm not convinced non-profit intellectual property sharing should even be prohibited, but now it seems we are being bullied into re-buying the same shit over and over again for no good reason. Why should someone pay $500 to dick around in Photoshop for fun when he's not going to profit from it and it isn't costing Adobe anything out of pocket? At least we have the noble people at Gimp to somewhat alleviate that problem. Patents get 20 years, copyrighted works should be the same. Trying to say they're different is retarded. The one exception may be fundamental trademarks like the McDonald's arches.

Great to see Carlos show back up. Again, Carlos, you're not being forced to buy anything multiple times. No "right" is being infringed upon. And your argument has nothing to do with gaming.

Quote:

Again, like I keep saying, physical product advertisements in the IP product would eliminate all of this bullshit. It's working great for the Adam Carolla podcast and Community on NBC.com (Pledge commercials throughout, lol) as well as Hulu.com. These dinosaur douchebags need to get on the bandwagon.

First off, Podcasts are normally free (with the occasional exception, like the brilliant Ricky Gervais show), and most podcast hosts aren't paid. And Hulu just followed the business practice of standard television, which is to include advertisements. I'm not sure everyone would like to see Pepsi and Cialis ads plastered all over their favorite classic games, but I'd like to see the option explored.

Quote:

Who said anything about Steam? I don't even know WTF that is!

Really? I'm not a PC gamer and even I know what Steam is. Maybe because it's the future (unlike your cell-phone console).

Quote:

More often than not they are lazy cash in titles. You can look at the sales of Super Mario World in 1992 and know a new Mario game will sell. You don't need a ripoff emulation service for that.

A SWING aaaaaannnndd....miss of the point.

Quote:

doubt it. Unless they support the Wii controller, I don't see how that's possible. The Wii is practically a Gamecube to begin with, the next system won't be.

Seriously! Why would Nintendo follow the Wii with a Wii-like device?! That would be so dumb! It's not like they're making an insane profit or anything. My guess - Nintendo plays the next generation like the N64 generation. [/Sarcasm]

Quote:

These games are old. Whether or not they are supported is of negligible importance to the future. I'd rather lose $1 than $8 to a douchebag, it's called "damage control." Also, most iPhone games have demos...VC games barely have a gameplay video.

Who is the douchebag, the company behind the $8 classic? Or the company behind the $1 turd? Hey, if you want to play turds, by all means, go right ahead. Again, no one is forcing you to buy anything.

Quote:

I accept their right to profit, I don't accept their means to do so. I can't choose what I buy as a consumer? Other companies manage to turn a profit selling these games for pennies a piece, Nintendo can't? I already said I understand the convenience of it for the masses that can't handle hardware restoration, but the rest of us need to hold out for a better offer. You don't go pay MSRP for a car when you know they are padding the shit out of the price do you? Same for a house. You haggle until you know the price is what it should be. That's what I'm doing by boycotting VC.

Of course you have the option to choose what you buy! Unfortunately, the only way you can choose what you pay is by not purchasing a product so it eventually lowers in price. Obviously VC games are selling well enough, though, to avoid price reduction.

Also, you can't haggle for everything. Go into a Gamestop when Modern Warfare 2 comes out and say "I'll buy that, but I'm willing to only pay $20". Just because you want it to be a certain price doesn't really mean anything. Throwing a tantrum doesn't make it so.

Quote:

I'm not trying to stop Bob from downloading Mario Kart to show his son, I'm just saying that bigger fans should know better and wait until they price things more appropriately compared to other retro game services. Free emulation has nothing to do with this, I wouldn't give a shit fuck if I had no intention of buying them. Again, I prefer to buy the real games if I'm going to pay for them, but just voicing another reason I don't like the Wii since everyone always posts a big "WHY!!?!?!" when I say that. Why people keep saying "VC is AWESOME!" when they charge what they do is unbelievable to me. All I'm saying is that if these games were priced the same as they are on most compilations, I would gladly buy and support them. IT'S AN OPINION ASSHOLE.

People on this forum are just pointing out why the VC makes sense for Nintendo and a group of consumers. I'd venture to say that the majority here agree with you that most games are overpriced. I have almost no interest in repurchasing games, why would I? With the large exception of Super Star Wars, of course ;) But games that aren't readily available to me in their original form I jump on. Sin & Punishment, Super Fantasy Zone, TG-16 games, etc... The service has its uses for even the most hardcore of gamers.
10-23-2009, 03:34 PM
TheEdge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baloo

No, not really. The general populous doesn't have access to emulators or know that they even exist, don't you realize that? And buying all these old games they played as a kid to show their kids is wonderful for them...

Your joking right? That is by far the flimsiest defence I've ever seen. If your a gamer and in your early twenties and don't know about emulators then there is something seriously strange going on there.

I do agree with you on that the younger generation should experience old games but there are physical copies for extrememly cheap prices.

Sonic Ultimate Collection
Metal Slug Anthology
Samurai Shodwown Anthology
Namco Museum 50th Anniversary

Not only is it more cost effective as 17Days has been saying but your actually holding a physical commodity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

Baloo if you have access to a decent computer and if you read videogame magazines then you know emulators exist. And I do have to say i'm with 17days on MM9. I mean me personally I don't wanna move backwards like that again.

This ^
10-23-2009, 04:30 PM
Baloo

But my point is that 20-year old gamers AREN'T the Wii's target audience.

It's kids, parents, and senior citizens. And any other kind of casual gamer.
10-23-2009, 04:44 PM
TheEdge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baloo

It's kids, parents, and senior citizens. And any other kind of casual gamer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheEdge

and I would even go as far as to say that they are taking advantage of computer illiterate people. :mad:

If that is true....then you just proved my point.
10-23-2009, 04:45 PM
17daysolderthannes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baloo

"I don't want to buy this bag of potato chips for 50 cents because you buy 20 bags of chips wholesale for 20 cents apiece."

Now does that make any sense at all? It works the same way for those compilations. It can't work that way for a consumer.

Again, making the peanut gallery mistake of confusing physical product with intellectual property. Those VC games cost LESS per unit to the IP owner than a compilation disc because bandwith is the only cost vs. shipping and wholesaler/retailer markup etc. If a PHYSICAL compilation disc is $20 and has 45 games, a VC download should cost half or less per game considering there is no physical product cost associated with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InternalPrimate

Your assuming a lot of things. From the very beginning of this "to emulate or not to emulate" argument, you've stated that you're screwed if your Wii breaks down. That's total bullshit, and it's been proven to be bullshit in another thread. I think the point that Melf was trying to make was that you have no guarantee at all as to what will or will not work in the future. Have you even once considered tv connections? What if tvs in the future only support HDMI? What will happen to your retro systems?

Wii breaking now or 10 years from now are two different things. Even if we start using Optic 9 connections from the year 2585, at least I have a physical cartridge that says "hey asshole, I own this game, it's my perogative to play a ROM since I can't play it on the real hardware anymore."

Besides...hello! clones! Think those are going anywhere? Wasn't the Retrogen the hot topic for the past few weeks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by InternalPrimate

Are you suggesting you know more about economics? If so, that's laughable. The market dictates the price! If SNES VC games are $8, that's because that's the price people are willing to pay for them. When you lower price, you have to take into account the necessary increase in units sold to break even. My guess is that because Nintendo hasn't lowered their prices, there's no reason to.

How has the market dictated the price? every other option is CHEAPER (real games, compilation discs, etc.). Nintendo hasn't touched the price...ever. All that says to me is they are stubborn and pigheaded about it. So I guess the guy that drives straight into a brick wall is smart because he didn't change his course to better accomodate the situation :roll:

Quote:

Originally Posted by InternalPrimate

First off, Podcasts are normally free (with the occasional exception, like the brilliant Ricky Gervais show), and most podcast hosts aren't paid. And Hulu just followed the business practice of standard television, which is to include advertisements. I'm not sure everyone would like to see Pepsi and Cialis ads plastered all over their favorite classic games, but I'd like to see the option explored.

"oh podcasts are free," so? It's still intellectual property. If podcasts are free, why can't other IP entertainment be free via ads? Why can't games follow TV and Hulu's lead? If you don't want to go that route, THEN you can pay to have it ad free. Everyone wins. Nintendo could even use it to advertise new releases like advertising Castlevania Rebirth via NES Castlevania.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InternalPrimate

Really? I'm not a PC gamer and even I know what Steam is. Maybe because it's the future (unlike your cell-phone console).

I'm going to laugh my ass of at you 5 years from now when cell phones become everyone's all-in-one device and developers start exclusively developing for iPhone-like platforms. THAT's the future. All it would take is an A/V out and a bluetooth controller to turn an iPhone into a WiiWare killer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InternalPrimate

Seriously! Why would Nintendo follow the Wii with a Wii-like device?! That would be so dumb! It's not like they're making an insane profit or anything. My guess - Nintendo plays the next generation like the N64 generation. [/Sarcasm]

Wii-like=/=Wii. Different hardware has problems, look at PS3 vs. PS2 backwards compatibility. They may make motion based gameplay, but backwards compatiblity is not a guarantee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InternalPrimate

Who is the douchebag, the company behind the $8 classic? Or the company behind the $1 turd? Hey, if you want to play turds, by all means, go right ahead. Again, no one is forcing you to buy anything.

Who said anything about a turd vs. classic? I was saying losing $1 on a shitty VC game would be better than $8, just like losing $1 on a shitty iPhone game is better than losing $8 on a shitty iPhone game. You keep insisting that the iPhone sucks for some intrinsic reason and it's really ignorant to deny a console because of its roots. Nintendo was a playing card company first, didn't stop the Game and Watch games and later the Famicom from being a hit. $8 is a relative cost made up by Nintendo, we all know they could charge much less and make a killing due to volume sales. Again, don't support it just because that's the way it is now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InternalPrimate

Of course you have the option to choose what you buy! Unfortunately, the only way you can choose what you pay is by not purchasing a product so it eventually lowers in price. Obviously VC games are selling well enough, though, to avoid price reduction.

Also, you can't haggle for everything. Go into a Gamestop when Modern Warfare 2 comes out and say "I'll buy that, but I'm willing to only pay $20". Just because you want it to be a certain price doesn't really mean anything. Throwing a tantrum doesn't make it so.

Who's throwing a tantrum? The only people I'm pissed at are the people defending Nintendo's blatant mis-pricing with flawed arguments that compare it to physical product. I wait for physical games to drop in price before I buy them as well. I haven't bought Super Mario Galaxy and Smash Brother Brawl because I'm waiting for the price to drop, same with the PS3 and its game library. For me, half the fun is snagging a deal. I know I can't necessarily expect that from the VC (though price drops happen constantly on the App Store), but if enough people say "lower the prices and we'll buy more," any smart business will eventually listen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InternalPrimate

People on this forum are just pointing out why the VC makes sense for Nintendo and a group of consumers. I'd venture to say that the majority here agree with you that most games are overpriced. I have almost no interest in repurchasing games, why would I? With the large exception of Super Star Wars, of course ;) But games that aren't readily available to me in their original form I jump on. Sin & Punishment, Super Fantasy Zone, TG-16 games, etc... The service has its uses for even the most hardcore of gamers.

I know why VC exists, why does everyone insist I "don't get" the Wii? I get the Wii, I don't like it, what I don't understand is why all of YOU don't get that. Some of the Japanese releases are a positive, but I'd still like it better if I had a physical proof of purchase to go with it. If Nintendo established a system that said "you make an account, you buy a game, it will be available on every future Nintendo system for free download," I would probably stock up.

Have any of you ever heard "the customer is always right?" People complain the PS3 is too expensive and it's flailing. You claim the PSN isn't as good as XBOX live and so you don't support it. I claim the Wii VC sucks and I don't support it, yet somehow that is grounds for everyone to claim I don't get it and these games are priced fairly. WTF? Compilation after compilation proves these games could be profitable at 50 cents a pop, so why the fuck am I spending $8 for Sonic 2? I'm not, that's why.
10-23-2009, 04:53 PM
17daysolderthannes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baloo

But my point is that 20-year old gamers AREN'T the Wii's target audience.

It's kids, parents, and senior citizens. And any other kind of casual gamer.

I'm so sick of this "GRANDMA FUCKING LOVES THE WII!" argument. I got news for you: grandma TOLERATES the Wii. She's just meeting the grandkids halfway, she would rather sit down and have tea with her friends or go on a picnic, she comes from a different time that doesn't like video games. Meeting someone halfway doesn't mean you like something. Show me one Grandma/Grandpa aged person that went out and bought a Wii for a reason other than entertaining their kids/grandkids. You won't find one.
10-23-2009, 04:55 PM
MrMatthews

Well, I am 30-something gamer, I'm somewhat "hardcore," I read video game magazines exclusively, AND I've downloaded games from the VC. Some of them are titles that are hard to come by, like Super Fantasy Zone or Super Mario RPG. Others are games I've always loved that I downloaded simply for the convenience of having them in a dedicated GAMING system, like Mario 64 or Super Mario World.

There are plenty of reasons why even the most educated gamers would buy a handful of games from the VC. And like I've said MANY times before, a $5 to $10 purchase every four or five months is completely negligible. 17days can preach about how much more expensive VC games are than iPhone games until he's blue in the face, but he's conveniently overlooking the fact that nobody is buying 100 games. I've probably spent just as much on my 20 VC games as he has on his 100 iPhone games, but I firmly believe that quality is greater than quantity.
10-23-2009, 04:55 PM
TheEdge

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes

what I don't understand is why all of YOU don't get that.

They love being ripped off. ;) or they already got ripped off and can't accept or admit it.
10-23-2009, 05:12 PM
Knuckle Duster

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheEdge

If that is true....then you just proved my point.

"Taking Advange Of" suggests "Malicious Intent"

In case you missed it the first dozen times it's been said:

"They Are A Business"

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCrackpot

They love being ripped off. ;) or they already got ripped off and can't accept or admit it.

Sure, lets go down the road of blind assumptions on how other people think instead of parse through their direct messages in the discussion. :roll:

Melf, you should lock this thread and ban all parties involved for a dogs age or two. Think of the children.

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